Free market principles demand that the way to impr. education is to pay teachers more

[Annie]

What would the status of the medical field be if doctor's salaries were reduced to what teachers make? Probably be pretty dismal, eh?

Gee,today there are many more teachers than openings. Same can't be said for doctors, even with their salaries. No doubt about it, even with all the pressures of insurance, law suits, the market forces still exert influence.

Really? There's no teacher shortage?

Few places, AK, SD, NH, Appalachia chronically. The competition to get into programs such as Teach.gov has been intense. Pretty much those graduating from Ivy's are the ones let in. So in general, yes the 'teacher shortage' seems a false premise. Now if schools would get rid of poor-mediocre teachers and allow 'highly qualified teachers' to replace them, we might get somewhere.

 

[BrianH]

Gee,today there are many more teachers than openings. Same can't be said for doctors, even with their salaries. No doubt about it, even with all the pressures of insurance, law suits, the market forces still exert influence.

Really? There's no teacher shortage?

Few places, AK, SD, NH, Appalachia chronically. The competition to get into programs such as Teach.gov has been intense. Pretty much those graduating from Ivy's are the ones let in. So in general, yes the 'teacher shortage' seems a false premise. Now if schools would get rid of poor-mediocre teachers and allow 'highly qualified teachers' to replace them, we might get somewhere.

That's correct. Schools today view teachers as expendable. I've heard of alot of school districts having high turnover rates because the district would rather pay a new teacher the lowest salary rather than a teacher stay for a period of time and acrue higher salaries. It's a way for the districts to save money. Another crappy practice that schools are forced to commit is replacing good teachers with coaches. They can get rid of having to pay an entire teacher's salary by moving in a coach to that position. This happened to me. I majored in history. I taught world geograph and government/economics. I was pushed out and replaced by a coach. The principal groomed the entire situation to take place right under my nose. She thought she was being sneaky, but I caught on fairly quickly that she was doing it. He was just a coach and she encouraged him to get certified in social studies, when he finally did, she initiated her assault.lol. Schools all over are adopting this type of behavior. I have nothing against coaches, however, at the same time I would rather my child be taught by someone who majored in a subject rather than a coach who is already extremely busy with sports.... just my opinion.

P.S.- unfortunately our schools have become a business rather thanan actual place of learning.

 

[WillowTree]

Guess what?? I don't think Federal Employees are allowed to Unionize.. I think Jimmy Carter signed a law prohibiting FEDERAL employees from collective bargaining.. methinks.

Then I guess it's a good thing that we're not talking about federal employees.

now back to teachers unionss,, not on the taxpayers time or dime should they exist.. the taxpayer has no seat at the table and the unions buy them a pocketful of democrats so the system is rife with corruption.

Like I said, the taxpayer DOES have a seat at the table. The government official who does the government's side of the negotiating represents the government, i.e. the taxpayer. Expecting/demanding anything more than that is flawed. It is the same representation as the share holders of Corporation X receive when their company negotiates with the union of their employees.

If you think that the laws of your state need to be amended, then maybe you should write your state legislators.

Yes you were.. go back,, I bolded the part where you in fact did talk about Federal employees, that's why I mentioned it.. see ^^^^^^ I bolded where you said we weren't talking about them so scroll backwards til you find the post I bolded in which you were talking about them. Thanks

 

[Oddball]

What would the status of the medical field be if doctor's salaries were reduced to what teachers make? Probably be pretty dismal, eh?

Gee,today there are many more teachers than openings. Same can't be said for doctors, even with their salaries. No doubt about it, even with all the pressures of insurance, law suits, the market forces still exert influence.

Really? There's no teacher shortage?

No....None.

Of the 1,563,000 bachelor's degrees conferred in 2007-'08, the greatest numbers of degrees were conferred in the fields of business (335,000); social sciences and history (167,000); health sciences (111,000); and education (103,000). At the master's degree level, the greatest numbers of degrees were conferred in the fields of education (176,000) and business (156,000).

Fast Facts

Supply & demand.

 

[Oddball]

What would the status of the medical field be if doctor's salaries were reduced to what teachers make? Probably be pretty dismal, eh?

How many people graduate college with degrees in education vs. graduates in medicine, Mr. Supply-and-demand?

What does the average MBA earn compared to what the average teacher with a master's degree earns?

How many MBAs are demanded in the business world, in relation to the supply, compared to the numbers for people with education degrees?

 

[gekaap]

The truth is, Texas is a "huge" state right there in the middle of the country. They are a good barometer for what the right wing is thinking and for right wing positions. Bush was from Texas. And their Republican Party State Platform spells out the Republican Position probably better than any other state platform.

http://static.texastribune.org/media/documents/FINAL_2010_STATE_REPUBLICAN_PARTY_PLATFORM.pdf

On the other hand Texas is typically ass backwards on nearly everything. Education especially. Anything for which you can cite them as an example in education will pretty much be an example of "things that you should avoid like the plague but stupid people may do anyway."

 

[Oddball]

Wow....You two clowns are giving that ol' broad brush a real workout, aren't ya?

 

[editec]

If education was a PRIVATE Concern then market forces would hold sway over teachers' salaries.

But the vast majority of k-12 education in the USA is is socialized AT THE LOCAL LEVEL.

Hence, the market forces that might otherwise drive up (or down) salaries for teachers are not in effect.

I suspect that if schools were entirely privatized there'd be less schools, less students, less teachers and the overall quality of education would improve, even while the aggregate level of ignornance would rise.

I say this based on the history of the state of overall education in nations where public education was not available.

We would ened up with an elite with very fine educations, and a much greater number of Americans who could neither read no write.

 

[gekaap]

Gee,today there are many more teachers than openings.

Don't be so sure about that.

Same can't be said for doctors, even with their salaries. No doubt about it, even with all the pressures of insurance, law suits, the market forces still exert influence.

Actually, I would wager that regulations and practices that limit the number of people that can enter medical school each year (i.e. a highly restricted market as opposed to a generally free market) probably has a direct impact on the number of doctors and doctor shortages. (Congressionally limited funding for internships and teaching hospitals has restricted the availability of residency positions for doctors.)

 

[Annie]

Gee,today there are many more teachers than openings.

Don't be so sure about that.

Same can't be said for doctors, even with their salaries. No doubt about it, even with all the pressures of insurance, law suits, the market forces still exert influence.

Actually, I would wager that regulations and practices that limit the number of people that can enter medical school each year (i.e. a highly restricted market as opposed to a generally free market) probably has a direct impact on the number of doctors and doctor shortages. (Congressionally limited funding for internships and teaching hospitals has restricted the availability of residency positions for doctors.)

LOL! I did, you should have. Listed by state, some have 1 opening for an art position. No openings in academics other than 3 in math/science. Do you have any clue to how many teachers there are? I listed those I know are hiring because I'm looking. I'm not alone, many are willing to change states to find a job.

 

[gekaap]

Yes you were.. go back,, I bolded the part where you in fact did talk about Federal employees, that's why I mentioned it.. see ^^^^^^ I bolded where you said we weren't talking about them so scroll backwards til you find the post I bolded in which you were talking about them. Thanks

Oh my, I accidentally slipped the word "federal" in there. I guess I had a brain fart. Of course, any application of common sense makes it easy to recognize that it was completely out of place, seeing as the rest of the conversation leading up and after has been about teachers.

 

[gekaap]

Wow....You two clowns are giving that ol' broad brush a real workout, aren't ya?

Live in a place long enough and you get a feel for just how broad a brush the place calls for.

 

[Oddball]

If education was a PRIVATE Concern then market forces would hold sway over teachers' salaries.

But the vast majority of k-12 education in the USA is is socialized AT THE LOCAL LEVEL.

Hence, the market forces that might otherwise drive up (or down) salaries for teachers are not in effect.

I suspect that if schools were entirely privatized there'd be less schools, less students, less teachers and the overall quality of education would improve, even while the aggregate level of ignornance would rise.

I say this based on the history of the state of overall education in nations where public education was not available.

We would ened up with an elite with very fine educations, and a much greater number of Americans who could neither read no write.

First of all, that's fewer schools, teachers and students.

Secondly, what in the world would make you say that?

America is the land of the most abundant and relatively inexpensive food, clothing, housing, transportation, etcetera...What would make you believer that education would be any different were it left to the free market to provide?

 

[Oddball]

Wow....You two clowns are giving that ol' broad brush a real workout, aren't ya?

Live in a place long enough and you get a feel for just how broad a brush the place calls for.

Pfffft.

My home is in Wisconsin and not everyone there is involved in making cheese or beer.

Give it a rest.

 

[gekaap]

Pfffft.

My home is in Wisconsin and not everyone there is involved in making cheese or beer.

Give it a rest.

Nor did I say that everyone in Texas drives a pickup and wears a cowboy hat. I've said that their government policies and practices tend to be very flawed in nearly every approach. And I've said that this is especially true for their approach on education. Theology must be taught in science classes, but not safe sex. Immigrant children cannot be required to go to school and be taught in English, but American children can be required to attend schools that teach in Spanish. Schools can afford to pay top notch coaches for the football team who then teach classes, but not afford to pay top notch teachers to teach who then coach sports.

 

[Oddball]

In your opinion.

Which has next to nothing to do with your hopelessly flawed presumption in the OP of this hopeless thread.

 

[gekaap]

Thanks for all the substance you've contributed.

 

[Oddball]

I contributed it in post #2, which you conveniently ignored.

The notion that free market principle X would/should/could work, in a scenario where most other of those precepts have been circumvented and undermined, is preposterous from the get-go.

 

[gekaap]

I contributed it in post #2, which you conveniently ignored.

The notion that free market principle X would/should/could work, in a scenario where most other of those precepts have been circumvented and undermined, is preposterous from the get-go.

In other words, you choose not to address the discussions at hand, and just summarily dismiss them without any reason. Thanks for playing.

 

[Skull Pilot]

How do you account for the present dismal situation regarding the nations status in education? Teachers aren't paupers are they?

What would the status of the medical field be if doctor's salaries were reduced to what teachers make? Probably be pretty dismal, eh?

Teachers and doctors are apples and oranges.

Teachers spend no where near the time and money on their education as doctors do.

Tell you what, you institute an internship and residency program similar to doctors where the crappy teachers get washed out and then receive no union protection to keep them from being fired and allow private citizens to sue the pants off of teachers when they fail to do their job then maybe we can compare the two.