Freakonomics: What happened to all the criminals?

[Shogun]

There's no such thing as a moral abortion.
There is such a thing as a necessary abortion, though they are extremely rare and far between.
And I'd like to see where I stated I'd "make" my daughter have a rape baby?

BTW, your language is great, and extremely sensitive. YOu come across as a real champion for women.

I just hope to God your daughter never gets raped and gets to come home and try to discuss the topic with you. Particularly if she thinks she wants to keep the "rape baby".

Im hoping that the vividness of my words slip past the calloused hide of your anti-abortion opinion. If you can tell other women to suck it up and have their attckers baby then certainly you should be able to do the same with your own kid. Again, why hide behind the word LEGAL? Legal or not should your daughter have the option of ABORTING a pregnancy that was the product of being gang raped? If you say YES then welcome to the Pro-choice side of this debate.




Indeed, if my daughter were raped I wouldn't be wasting time debating the validity of narrow circumstances where you can fathom an abortion. I would'nt be hiding behind what is or isnt legal when giving her support. I'd recognize the necessity for such a procedure without having to brief my anti-abortion card to find out if YOUR standard is eing upheld by HER personal choices.

 

[AllieBaba]

And what if your child stated she didn't want an abortion? Would you lay aside the hate-filled language and support her? Or would you call her the names you like to call me?

 

[Shogun]

I would support her CHOICE (remember, that IVE BEEN wearing.. not you) either way. You see, SHE would not be making value statements about what shoudl or should not be a woman's option because SHE would be having a bigger issue to deal with.



Again, welcome to the dark side of Pro-Choice

 

[AllieBaba]

Maybe she'd see it as a blessing. Would you castigate her then?

 

[Shogun]

If she CHOOSES to keep the baby then such is HER choice.


Do you sense a pattern here? CHOICE. HERS.


so, how do you like it over here on the Pro Choice side where we can understand the necessity of abortion as an option for particular circumstances? You might have to trade your blue lightsaber in for one of our Red ones..

 

[AllieBaba]

I'm not pro choice, as I said, and I will never vote for it.
But as long as it's legal, I wouldn't prevent others or punish them for making that choice.

 

[Shogun]

I'm not pro choice, as I said, and I will never vote for it.
But as long as it's legal, I wouldn't prevent others or punish them for making that choice.

Im afraid that puts you more on my side than the side you think you are on.

 

[AllieBaba]

It puts me exactly where I knew I was all along. You're the only one who's surprised, because you had preconceived notions about what it means to hold a certain view.

 

[Mr.Conley]

I've read Freakonomics, though admittedly it was several years ago. Nevertheless I remember the chapter linking abortion and crime. I have to say the argument does make a certain amount of sense, and we did see a substantial reduction in the crime rate starting about 18-20 years after Roe. Now is this the only factor affecting crime rates? No. Just compare New York and New Orleans, good policing and solid economic growth are also key. Furthermore, whether or not abortion is a moral crime reduction tool is also debatable.

 

[AllieBaba]

And a conservative push in schools and society.

 

[Shogun]

It puts me exactly where I knew I was all along. You're the only one who's surprised, because you had preconceived notions about what it means to hold a certain view.

shit, Allie. you no more surprise me than you are enlightening.

 

[bennylava]

"Now is this the only factor affecting crime rates? No. Just compare New York and New Orleans, good policing and solid economic growth are also key."

He showed in the chapter though that policing and economics were not responsible for it. I can't remember what he said about it though. hee.

Now here comes the question. From a philosophical debate point of view, is it possible hypothetically to say "Yes, it seems that legalizing abortion did reduce the crime rate, but that is not a valid justification or reason for keeping abortion legal."?

I think it is. I think it's possible to mathematically draw a conclusion, show a cause and effect relationship without saying that the cause and effect is right or wrong, it just is.

 

[AllieBaba]

It's no more possible to draw a connection between abortion and the reduction of crime than it is to draw a connection between the reduction of crime and increased conservative social values.

It's a theory that can't be proved, and is used for nothing other than pushing eugenics.

 

[Shogun]

kinda like gravity, right?

 

[AllieBaba]

I think gravity is ultimately caused by God.

You're right! Just like gravity!

 

[KissMy]

This Freakonomics theory is major bullshit.

The illegitimate birth rate did not drop in 1973 when abortion was legalized. It climbed even faster. The illegitimate birth rate plummeted at the same time as the crime rate did in 1992.

Why did this happen? AIDS!!!!

November 7, 1991, basketball legend Earvin "Magic" Johnson stuns the world by announcing he tested positive for HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. Within 2 months the number of people getting tested for aids was up 50%. Illegitimate birth rates dropped within 9 months. Heroin & other injected drug use that had been soaring since 1960 slowed their accent.

The country sobered up a bit & people quit having as much sex with strangers & not without protection. This must have reduce the financial stress of illegitimate births & drug use.

 

[candycorn]

As I stated earlier, I don't have time to transcribe the entire chapter of the book to you. I was hoping to have an intelligent discussion about it.

I saw the movie on Netflix (Freakonomics) Abortions and Crime: Freakonomics Movie - YouTube

He does make a statistical reference in comparison to Romania and the states where abortion was used before Roe and where abortions are more easily attained.

It doesn't explain why education is not following suit though. Shouldn't education be better than it is--all other things being equal--if class sizes are smaller?

 

[Clementine]

Has anyone read this book?
I was going to link to it but I'm not allowed to yet.

In one of the chapters, the author asserts that the crime wave that sociologists predicted would happen in the 90's was thwarted by Roe v. Wade. He argues that since unwanted children are the most likely to end up as criminals, that legalizing abortion prevented those people from ever being born, which resulted in a reduction in crime in the 90's, when those people would have been in their 20's.

The question would then be, if you do believe that is true, was it worth it?

Talk about a double edged sword.

Planned Parenthood was created by a woman who wanted to control the population of blacks in this country. While the liberals claim that has changed, the fact is that the majority of babies aborted are black.

We are supposed to be good liberals and support abortion (population control) while at the same time not talk about which segment of the population is being controlled. Of course, they say that if we don't approve of funding abortion and birth control pills, then we'll have a bigger cost of paying to raise all these children. It's funny that they admit the people asking for funding would be so irresponsible that others will bear the burden of their decisions. Don't look too closely here at what is really going on or liberals will approve of abortion decades after some babies are born.

Now we're supposed to be glad that so many criminals weren't born and it's taboo to look at statistics.

I am only going to say that more people should take personal responsibility for their own choices because being a load on society has caused more problems than we can handle.

 

[FireFly]

This Freakonomics theory is major bullshit.

The illegitimate birth rate did not drop in 1973 when abortion was legalized. It climbed even faster. The illegitimate birth rate plummeted at the same time as the crime rate did in 1992.

Why did this happen? AIDS!!!!

November 7, 1991, basketball legend Earvin "Magic" Johnson stuns the world by announcing he tested positive for HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. Within 2 months the number of people getting tested for aids was up 50%. Illegitimate birth rates dropped within 9 months. Heroin & other injected drug use that had been soaring since 1960 slowed their accent.

The country sobered up a bit & people quit having as much sex with strangers & not without protection. This must have reduce the financial stress of illegitimate births & drug use.

Nobody wants to admit that abortion caused an increase in the illegitimate birth rate because it was a license for women to take more risk with sex. Everyone wants more sex drugs & rock & roll. The consequence of this was a massive increase in crime. AIDS shut this down. It ended the growth of this criminal lifestyle.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Has anyone read this book?
I was going to link to it but I'm not allowed to yet.

In one of the chapters, the author asserts that the crime wave that sociologists predicted would happen in the 90's was thwarted by Roe v. Wade. He argues that since unwanted children are the most likely to end up as criminals, that legalizing abortion prevented those people from ever being born, which resulted in a reduction in crime in the 90's, when those people would have been in their 20's.

The question would then be, if you do believe that is true, was it worth it?

Actually, what he argues is that abortion accounts for about 50% of the crime reduction - but it is the largest factor.

Many women who have abortions wind up having children later in life. Take a women who aborts a child when she's 18, then has 3 children in her late 20's early 30's. if she hadn't aborted that child at 18 - she likely wouldn't have had 3 children in her 20s/30s. In fact, she might not even have ANY extra children. So by forcing her to have the child, you might very well be denying birth to future children.