Freakonomics: What happened to all the criminals?

[bennylava]

"The only way that argument flies is if one accepts the assumption that only poor women have abortions. What are the chances that's true?"

As I said in a previous post, before R v. W middle class and upper class women could afford to have illegal abortions. It wasn't until after RVW that anyone could get an abortion.
Of course one could argue that if those rich women hadn't had abortions, they probably would have ended up in poverty if their families or the father had abandoned them, which happens all the time.

 

[AllieBaba]

And yet, if we made abortion legal only in cases of rape, who decides when a rape has occurred? How many men would be wrongly accused of it? Do you know how hard it is to prove that a rape has occurred already?
Also most people who are prolife believe that a fertilized egg has the same rights as a person who is already born. If that is true, does the behavior of the father really matter? A person is a person. If they really believe that a zygote/embryo/fetus is an equal person, how that person was conceived SHOULD have no bearing on whether it is ok to end the pregnancy or not.
To me it seems like it has more to do with whether the woman committed a sin or not, which is just a ridiculous way to decide whether she should be in control of her reproduction or not.

Again, I assert it is possible to discuss something that another person wrote without agreeing with it.

Discussion is one thing. Support is another, and your comments support the material.

And it's not about whether a woman committed a sin, but whether she made a choice to indulge in behavior that could impregnate her. There's a difference. If she made the choice, then she is responsible for the outcome. If she didn't make the choice, then theoretically, she is not responsible for the outcome. Though, of course, in reality, she is, simply because she's the woman and bears the fruit of the act.

 

[Shogun]

SIN?

good grief.


What is your focus here, Allie? Restricting sinful sexual behaviour or minimizing abortions? This is where your side fucks up your arguement.


So, are you telling me that if your daughter gets RAPED and gets pregnanat from her attcker that you would insist that she carry the child because she has a uterus?

indeed, this is where your side fucks up.

 

[AllieBaba]

I didn't throw sin into the argument, if you'll recall, and my comment puts the idea of "sin" to rest.

Nor did I even put forward an opinion as to what raped women should do. That's your own rabid defense of abortion insisting that I'm making claims I haven't.

 

[Bern80]

"The only way that argument flies is if one accepts the assumption that only poor women have abortions. What are the chances that's true?"

As I said in a previous post, before R v. W middle class and upper class women could afford to have illegal abortions. It wasn't until after RVW that anyone could get an abortion.
Of course one could argue that if those rich women hadn't had abortions, they probably would have ended up in poverty if their families or the father had abandoned them, which happens all the time.

You can't really have a conversation about this if we don't know the statistics. Two assumptions you've made with no evidence so far 1)Most of the woman that get abortions are poor and 2) if they were rich woman and didn't have abortions they would be abandoned by those providing for them.

 

[AllieBaba]

It's an idiotic and juvenile argument, with absolutely nothing to back it up except wishful thinking.

 

[Shogun]

I didn't throw sin into the argument, if you'll recall, and my comment puts the idea of "sin" to rest.

Nor did I even put forward an opinion as to what raped women should do. That's your own rabid defense of abortion insisting that I'm making claims I haven't.

I misread the Sin part. I apologize.


But, as far as the rape goes:

If she didn't make the choice, then theoretically, she is not responsible for the outcome. Though, of course, in reality, she is, simply because she's the woman and bears the fruit of the act.

 

[AllieBaba]

Are we not responsible for our bodies?

If we aren't then the "we are responsible for our bodies" pro-abortion argument falls flat. If you're raped, you still have a choice. You can choose to have or to abort.

That means you're still responsible. Nobody else is.

 

[Shogun]

HA!

and THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is the cognitive ability of a rabid conservative foaming at the mouth over abortion.


So, again, if YOUR daughter is brutally gang raped and gets preggo are you telling me that it was HER responsibility because she has a uterus? That it is HER responsibility to deliver this gift from god, perhaps?

 

[AllieBaba]

If it's not her responsibility to choose, then whose is it?

You think somebody other than the rape victim should decide what she should do? And if the choice is hers, then so is the responsibility.

Responsibility is power, dumbass.

 

[Bern80]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20080122/us_time/whyhaveabortionratesfallen

Time to move on everyone. Apparently now we need to fight over who gets credit for the drop in abortion rate.

 

[bennylava]

As I stated earlier, I don't have time to transcribe the entire chapter of the book to you. I was hoping to have an intelligent discussion about it.

 

[Shogun]

If it's not her responsibility to choose, then whose is it?

You think somebody other than the rape victim should decide what she should do? And if the choice is hers, then so is the responsibility.

Responsibility is power, dumbass.

So, again, what would YOUR advise to your recently gang raped daughter be? Abortion or deliver the fruits of her violation?


and Did you just admit that a woman SHOULD HAVE a CHOICE to abort a fetus?


damn.. too smooth...

 

[AllieBaba]

As any pro-abortion fanatic will tell you..there are fewer abortions now because we have abortions, and the people who need abortions are being aborted before they can go there....

 

[AllieBaba]

So, again, what would YOUR advise to your recently gang raped daughter be? Abortion or deliver the fruits of her violation?


and Did you just admit that a woman SHOULD HAVE a CHOICE to abort a fetus?


damn.. too smooth...

Yes, that would be my advice. Would yours be different? Would you force your already violated daughter to be violated again in the abortion clinic, if that wasn't her choice?

And I said so long as it's legal, that's the choice any pregnant woman gets to make. That goes along with the responsibility of being female.

 

[Shogun]

Not at all. Remember, IM the one on the side of choice here. IM not so black and white about the topic of abortion. IM the one whose first posted thread on this forum was on a great abortion compramise. Maybe you can still insinuate that I hate vaginas though. Anti-vaginite has a ring to it, eh?


But, you seem to be hopping back and forth with the word LEGAL. Just to be clear, if Abortions were criminalized in ALL scenerios are you telling me that you would support her LEGAL option of, uh, having the child? Which would be greater: your concern for your daughter or your crusade against abortion?

 

[AllieBaba]

Abortions will never be criminalized in all scenarios, so that's a non-item, and is just another hysterical spasm the pro-abortionists put forth to scare everyone away from the idea that free-for-all abortions might not be a really good idea.

And if abortion in all scenarios was illegal (which will never happen) then I would help her to navigate the situation legally and morally.

 

[Shogun]

oh well now that we see that YOUR standard on this slippery slope is the point at which evrryone else should accept as a standard...






Thank god YOU are here, Allie.. the pro-choice crowd were well on their way to compulsory fetus removal!


So, what options are LEGAL and MORAL then, Allie? You'd make you daughter have a rape baby just because the law puts more value on a cluster of cells than your daughters personal privacy?

 

[AllieBaba]

There's no such thing as a moral abortion.
There is such a thing as a necessary abortion, though they are extremely rare and far between.
And I'd like to see where I stated I'd "make" my daughter have a rape baby?

BTW, your language is great, and extremely sensitive. YOu come across as a real champion for women.

I just hope to God your daughter never gets raped and gets to come home and try to discuss the topic with you. Particularly if she thinks she wants to keep the "rape baby".

 

[bennylava]

It's part of the responsiblity of being female.
So people who are married but absolutely positively don't want to have children, who are using birth control to the letter, who get sterilized and STILL get pregnant should have to have children?