For the Removal of Saddam, Yet against the war

questions? They make perfect sense. If you're going to take two different approaches to the same type of problem, then you'd better be able to explain why. Calling the questions "asinine" and "sophomoric" is just a way of avoiding them.

An equally challening question for Republicans--if Hussein's crimes were bad enough to justify the current war, then why didn't we take care of him back when he actually committed the vast bulk of them (killing over 100,000 Kurds)? Reagan had the chance to take him out, but instead considered him an ally.

(Not the first time the U.S. has considered a murderer an ally--consider Pinochet. Other countries seem to notice this about us, but somehow most Americans seem to think we'd never do such an immoral thing. And of course other countries can't help but notice that while we talk about promoting democracy, we've actively opposed democracies when they elected the "wrong" people, preferring dictatorships that we could control. This shameful history ought to make us humble, but somehow that doesn't seem to happen.)

Later, under Bush I, we encouraged the Shi'ites to revolt, then abandoned them to lovely Hussein, who I'm sure treated them very nicely. This little look at our history suggests that the President's current justification for the war--a humanitarian mission--is convenient, but false.

And if Hussein was such a bad guy, then why was he Dick Cheney's business partner all those years? Halliburton spent exactly 4 years out of Iraq, between doing business under Dick Cheney and then cleaning up after the war, with some nice no-bid contracts from a government including... Dick Cheney. It's all very cosy.

Of course LuvRPgirl may have hit the nail on the head when she mentioned that Iraq is an oil depot, and therefore strategically important to us. Many liberals have suspected this was the real reason for the invasion, along with lingering shame that his father had not taken Hussein out when he had the chance. But Bush has denied these issues had anything to do with his invasion.

Mariner.
 
Mariner said:
difference between getting a warrant, even 72 hours after the fact, and getting no warrant at all. In the first case you leave a paper trail, so later investigators can double check that your warrants were justified. I think I read there were 1400 approved warrants last year. Only a handful of requests have ever been turned down. In the second case, you can tap anyone you want. That is Big Brother at work, and I wouldn't trust it for a second, no matter which party were in power. I am stunned that so many Republicans have rolled over dead on this issue. I thought Republicans were the party of personal freedom?

Anyway, thank you for admitting that the President does have to obey the law, though he has every right to make his own arguments about how to interpret the law. In this case, I think he's going to lose. Too many people get the heebie-jeebies when you start talking about unsupervised wiretapping.

Mariner.

Unlike you, I am not the least bit concerned about eavesdropping on phone calls between terrorist organizations and potential terrorists. It is not threat to me, and has not infringed on my civil rights one bit.

Personal freedom and common sense are not mutually exclusive terms. The former can easily be tempered by the latter, and should be. The security of this Nation is all that stands between you and COMPLETE loss of those personal freedoms.

But you will never understand why "Republicans" are not concerned because you have blown this so out of proportion I'm starting to wonder just what it is YOU are so afraid of.

If Bush loses this issue in court, then you and those like you will have succeeded only in making tracking down terrorists all that much harder.
 
rtwngAvngr said:
You're making the assinine point that "if we're against evil dictators why did we go after saddam and not north korea?" I'm ahead of your sophomoric game. Your question is based on the illogical premise that we cannot do one good thing without doing all good things. That premise is stupid. :321:


I'm still not sure what your answer is. It's probably because you didn't answer the question.


(1) Are you against Kim Jong Il being the leader of N. Korea and for invading North Korea

OR

(2) are you for Kim Jong Il being the leader of N. Korea and against invading North Korea

?


Which one is it? Its a really simple question, you just have to answer either choice (1) or choice (2). No detailed explanation is needed.
 
GunnyL said:
Unlike you, I am not the least bit concerned about eavesdropping on phone calls between terrorist organizations and potential terrorists. It is not threat to me, and has not infringed on my civil rights one bit.

It isn't the terrorist's rights I'm concerned with.

Its the fact that I don't trust the executive to only eavesdrop on terrorists unless there is a check by the judiciary. And neither should you. If you trust the executive to that extend, why even have courts?
 
GunnyL said:
Unlike you, I am not the least bit concerned about eavesdropping on phone calls between terrorist organizations and potential terrorists. It is not threat to me, and has not infringed on my civil rights one bit.

It isn't the terrorist's rights I'm concerned with.

Its the fact that I don't trust the executive to only eavesdrop on terrorists unless there is a check by the judiciary. And neither should you. If you trust the executive to that extent, why even have the 4th amendment at all?
 
SpidermanTuba said:
I'm still not sure what your answer is. It's probably because you didn't answer the question.


(1) Are you against Kim Jong Il being the leader of N. Korea and for invading North Korea

OR

(2) are you for Kim Jong Il being the leader of N. Korea and against invading North Korea

?


Which one is it? Its a really simple question, you just have to answer either choice (1) or choice (2). No detailed explanation is needed.

Ok, I'll bite. IM against Kim J being the leader, and Im for invading NK. OK?
 
Mariner said:
questions? They make perfect sense. If you're going to take two different approaches to the same type of problem, then you'd better be able to explain why. Calling the questions "asinine" and "sophomoric" is just a way of avoiding them.

An equally challening question for Republicans--if Hussein's crimes were bad enough to justify the current war, then why didn't we take care of him back when he actually committed the vast bulk of them (killing over 100,000 Kurds)? Reagan had the chance to take him out, but instead considered him an ally.

(Not the first time the U.S. has considered a murderer an ally--consider Pinochet. Other countries seem to notice this about us, but somehow most Americans seem to think we'd never do such an immoral thing. And of course other countries can't help but notice that while we talk about promoting democracy, we've actively opposed democracies when they elected the "wrong" people, preferring dictatorships that we could control. This shameful history ought to make us humble, but somehow that doesn't seem to happen.)

Later, under Bush I, we encouraged the Shi'ites to revolt, then abandoned them to lovely Hussein, who I'm sure treated them very nicely. This little look at our history suggests that the President's current justification for the war--a humanitarian mission--is convenient, but false.

And if Hussein was such a bad guy, then why was he Dick Cheney's business partner all those years? Halliburton spent exactly 4 years out of Iraq, between doing business under Dick Cheney and then cleaning up after the war, with some nice no-bid contracts from a government including... Dick Cheney. It's all very cosy.

Of course LuvRPgirl may have hit the nail on the head when she mentioned that Iraq is an oil depot, and therefore strategically important to us. Many liberals have suspected this was the real reason for the invasion, along with lingering shame that his father had not taken Hussein out when he had the chance. But Bush has denied these issues had anything to do with his invasion.

Mariner.

dirty hands argument......

germany was once an ally, as was japan, who's side was italy on in wwI, wwII, are you saying if you make a mistake you are not allowed to fix it? since all were once enemies should they all still be enemies, france was once an ally they now oppose almost everything the us does.

i agree, saddam was once an ally against iraq, he changed, things change, saddam should have been taken out the first time but the UN resolution said get him out of kuwait then you must stop....that is what we did....one could argue that clinton had the chance, 8 years, to take out saddam as well as OBL....he did neither ... his choice ... GWB decided to do something.....you don't like the reasons he used...tough shit...he did something....he tried to right what he saw as a wrong....

yes there is oil in iraq, if all we wanted was control of the oil why not just sell arms to saddam make him a puppet, give him millions (LIKE FRANCE RUSSIA AND CHINA DID DURING SANCTIONS) and buy the oil from him at 70 a a drum.....just like SA....it would have been much cheaper than the billions congress approves to wage war.....
 
SpidermanTuba said:
It isn't the terrorist's rights I'm concerned with.

Its the fact that I don't trust the executive to only eavesdrop on terrorists unless there is a check by the judiciary. And neither should you. If you trust the executive to that extent, why even have the 4th amendment at all?

did you trust clinton and carter when they eavesdropped on you?
 
SpidermanTuba said:
And also, you believe that if something is right, but difficult, it should not be done.

Its not an oil depot? Why LuvRgrl, are you suggesting the invasion of Iraq had something to do with oil ???


Are you suggesting we rely on RED CHINA to protect us from North Korea?



I do know one thing for sure. You are FOR Kim Jong Il remaining in power.




I see. A war is like a tune up. You know, except thousands of people don't die when I tune up my car.


If both cars need a tune-up they both need a tune-up and if I planned on keeping the cars for the long haul I'd do the tune-up on both of them even if it meant going into debt for a little while.

You like debating with yourself?

RWA sounded you for what your questions hidden purpose was, and you claimed there was none, you just wanted to ask the question, then when I respond, you jump all over my answers with the hidden agenda RWA was talking about, but you denied. You are a liar and exposed.

And yes, oil is a national security interest. Keeping the middle east stable is in our national interest. Apparently you dont remember what happened in this country when we had a blunderhead for Pres. CARTER.

Yes, Im suggesting we rely on China to keep NK at bay.

So, you know for sure I support Kim to stay in power? :mm: Oh, thats a laugh. You participate in the special olympics too?

Oh yea, blah, blah, blah, I give an analogy with the cost of a car tune up and now you want to mock me like I think peoples lives can be compared to a tune up. Cmon, how disengenous. You think this board is populated with three year olds (liberals not withstanding), and they will fall for your stupid little propaganda line? PATHETIC.

TRY ARGUING THE POINTS ON A VALID BASIS. I also noticed you had to "hyper" up your language and refer to china as "red" China. What a hoot, you are really on the run here sonny.

Oh, I see you answered my analogous question. I guess you only consider peoples lives on the level of a car tune up also eh? :clap:

So, you would tune up both cars even if the neighbor offered to do one for half price eh?
 
SpidermanTuba said:
Obviously, you'd want to stop the bleeding from the wound that was bleeding the worst. You know, like going after the nation that has no WMD instead of after the nation that does.

so you're admitting that there is nothing wrong with dealing with them one at a time. And that just because we ousted saddam, doesnt mean we have to do the same with NK at this very moment. So, why do you bring it up?

If you cant see the differences in the two regions, then I guess your anger at Bush is truly blinding. I wont bother explaining the differences, I know you have heard them repeated over and over and over, you just choose to ignore reality and the truth.

By the way, you never responded to my point about all those other countries waging an illegal war also. You think you are better versed in international law than all of their attorney generals?
 
Mariner said:
questions? They make perfect sense. If you're going to take two different approaches to the same type of problem, then you'd better be able to explain why. Calling the questions "asinine" and "sophomoric" is just a way of avoiding them.

An equally challening question for Republicans--if Hussein's crimes were bad enough to justify the current war, then why didn't we take care of him back when he actually committed the vast bulk of them (killing over 100,000 Kurds)? Reagan had the chance to take him out, but instead considered him an ally.

(Not the first time the U.S. has considered a murderer an ally--consider Pinochet. Other countries seem to notice this about us, but somehow most Americans seem to think we'd never do such an immoral thing. And of course other countries can't help but notice that while we talk about promoting democracy, we've actively opposed democracies when they elected the "wrong" people, preferring dictatorships that we could control. This shameful history ought to make us humble, but somehow that doesn't seem to happen.)

Later, under Bush I, we encouraged the Shi'ites to revolt, then abandoned them to lovely Hussein, who I'm sure treated them very nicely. This little look at our history suggests that the President's current justification for the war--a humanitarian mission--is convenient, but false.

And if Hussein was such a bad guy, then why was he Dick Cheney's business partner all those years? Halliburton spent exactly 4 years out of Iraq, between doing business under Dick Cheney and then cleaning up after the war, with some nice no-bid contracts from a government including... Dick Cheney. It's all very cosy.

Of course LuvRPgirl may have hit the nail on the head when she mentioned that Iraq is an oil depot, and therefore strategically important to us. Many liberals have suspected this was the real reason for the invasion, along with lingering shame that his father had not taken Hussein out when he had the chance. But Bush has denied these issues had anything to do with his invasion.

Mariner.

hahhahahahh, so, when Clinton took office, why wasnt ousting Saddam an official administratio policy, if , as you claim, the situation was already warranting it? hahahhahah

and why is it that all the dems voted to authorize funding for the war knowing the same history of Iraq that you just presented?

And as for the area being an oil depot, I wasnt referring to JUST IRAQ, Im speaking of the entire region. We didnt ouster saddam for his oil, we could have easily bought it. PART of the reason is to prevent instability in the region for long term goals. So you can take your sorry ass attempt as using my words to construe that we invaded to steal their oil. Nobody here, except the already anti American Bush hating crowd, will fall for such propaganda.
 
SpidermanTuba said:
How would you go about paying for and getting enough troops for such an operation?


Take Teddy Kennedy for a ride over a river, lose control of the car,

use his money to finance it.

Troops? Hmmm, dock all our Navy ships in Mexico and put up signs, free ride to America. Take them to NK instead. Hand them guns, tell them if they come back alive, they are citizens.
 
LuvRPgrl said:
Take Teddy Kennedy for a ride over a river, lose control of the car,

use his money to finance it.

Troops? Hmmm, dock all our Navy ships in Mexico and put up signs, free ride to America. Take them to NK instead. Hand them guns, tell them if they come back alive, they are citizens.

as my 3 year olde daughter says in her little telly tubbie voice: "i like it"

btw......what does luvRPgrl....mean
 
manu1959 said:
as my 3 year olde daughter says in her little telly tubbie voice: "i like it"

btw......what does luvRPgrl....mean

Hey what happened to my best buddy nightmarish?

RP = Republic Philippines.
 
LuvRPgrl said:
Take Teddy Kennedy for a ride over a river, lose control of the car,

use his money to finance it.

Troops? Hmmm, dock all our Navy ships in Mexico and put up signs, free ride to America. Take them to NK instead. Hand them guns, tell them if they come back alive, they are citizens.


So you believe that the US should kidnap a couple hundred thousand Mexicans and impress them into service. That's the most braindead idea I've ever heard.
 
SpidermanTuba said:
So you believe that the US should kidnap a couple hundred thousand Mexicans and impress them into service. That's the most braindead idea I've ever heard.

hey dude....we were worried you left...everything ok?


nah he was giving them a choice....you know like the movie the dirty dozen.....do they not teach humour in university anymore?
 
SpidermanTuba said:
So you believe that the US should kidnap a couple hundred thousand Mexicans and impress them into service. That's the most braindead idea I've ever heard.

No wonder its a braindead idea. I didnt say KIDNAP them.
 
manu1959 said:
hey dude....we were worried you left...everything ok?


nah he was giving them a choice....you know like the movie the dirty dozen.....do they not teach humour in university anymore?


If LuvRGirl was joking, then I suppose that means she believes Kim Jong Il should remain in power.
 

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