For the Naysayers, YOU Better Worry About Oil, Cause Employment Isn't the Problem

[dilloduck]

No one says we should, but no one has a solution and the government has yet to do anything to address the crisis (besides the s**t energy bill that wants everyone to by hybrids, a temporary solution at best)

Ahhhhh--the government is supposed to fix this for us. Wanna bet private industry will solve this before our government?

 

[Mr.Conley]

Ahhhhh--the government is supposed to fix this for us. Wanna bet private industry will solve this before our government?

Why would I make a bet that I know I would lose? If anyone comes up with a solution, it will be the private industry because the government isn't doing anything meaningful to help.

As to whether the government should fix it I would say yes they should at least try. I would love to see the tax dollars already going to the National Science Foundation put to use solving one of the most important problems we face. The NSF would dole it out to (hopefully) the best private companies, universities, and institutions to get things rolling. Private companies will come in eventually, but only after a profit is in sight, and with fuel cells at least 20 years away, only a few, large private companies have the resources to wait that long. This way things would get moving faster and we'd get whatever comes out of it faster, easing the transition and preserving the American way of life.

Besides, TSOTU was about this issue, weaning ourselves off oil. Unless we see a sudden. massive rise in domestic production, we have to find a new source of fuel for transportation. By handing out grants to solve the problem, Bush would be simply be doing what he said he would.

 

[Mariner]

huggers. Oil will be our prime energy source for maybe 200-250 years. After that we'll move onto something else. Tree huggers are busy making sure we show some respect to our fellow denizens of planet earth while in this particular ancient-carbon-deposit based period. A redwood can live several times the length of our entire oil/timber/coal dependency. Ecosystems that have lived for millions of years are at risk from short-term energy needs. The Spotted Owl lived for tens of thousands of times longer than our timber dependency will continue. I'm glad we didn't sacrifice the owl to the timber industry--and I'm glad that Bush has been knocked on his rear repeatedly in his attempts to drill in the ANWR.

Mariner.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

huggers. Oil will be our prime energy source for maybe 200-250 years. After that we'll move onto something else. Tree huggers are busy making sure we show some respect to our fellow denizens of planet earth while in this particular ancient-carbon-deposit based period. A redwood can live several times the length of our entire oil/timber/coal dependency. Ecosystems that have lived for millions of years are at risk from short-term energy needs. The Spotted Owl lived for tens of thousands of times longer than our timber dependency will continue. I'm glad we didn't sacrifice the owl to the timber industry--and I'm glad that Bush has been knocked on his rear repeatedly in his attempts to drill in the ANWR.

Mariner.

Environmentalists are anti human. Their agenda seeks to guilt all of humanity for it's existence.

 

[Mr.Conley]

Oil will be our prime energy source for maybe 200-250 years.

And where will this 200-2500 year supply come from?

 

[dilloduck]

Why would I make a bet that I know I would lose? If anyone comes up with a solution, it will be the private industry because the government isn't doing anything meaningful to help.

As to whether the government should fix it I would say yes they should at least try. I would love to see the tax dollars already going to the National Science Foundation put to use solving one of the most important problems we face. The NSF would dole it out to (hopefully) the best private companies, universities, and institutions to get things rolling. Private companies will come in eventually, but only after a profit is in sight, and with fuel cells at least 20 years away, only a few, large private companies have the resources to wait that long. This way things would get moving faster and we'd get whatever comes out of it faster, easing the transition and preserving the American way of life.

Besides, TSOTU was about this issue, weaning ourselves off oil. Unless we see a sudden. massive rise in domestic production, we have to find a new source of fuel for transportation. By handing out grants to solve the problem, Bush would be simply be doing what he said he would.

Handing out grants ? :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

 

[Mr.Conley]

Handing out grants ?

Yea, its only what the National Science Foundation does. What is the problem with that?

 

[dilloduck]

Handing out grants ?

Yea, its only what the National Science Foundation does. What is the problem with that?

Not including all the wasted tax payer money, exactly what are these grants going to accomplish that private industry can't ? You may as well just give the research money to private industry because that's where it all ends up eventually anyway.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Handing out grants ?

Yea, its only what the National Science Foundation does. What is the problem with that?

Academics and grants are not the answer. We need real solutions for actual problems. As the price of fuel rises industry will find an alternative, but we must let the free market operate for this to occur. We must let the price rise, if in fact, it actually will.

 

[Mr.Conley]

Academics and grants are not the answer. We need real solutions for actual problems. As the price of fuel rises industry will find an alternative, but we must let the free market operate for this to occur. We must let the price rise, if in fact, it actually will.

We are letting the price rise, in fact the price of oil has risen 70o% in the past 6 years. I don't know about you but I'm only starting to see alternatives.

Not including all the wasted tax payer money, exactly what are these grants going to accomplish that private industry can't ? You may as well just give the research money to private industry because that's where it all ends up eventually anyway.

Things we directly or indirectly owe the NSF for:
1. Google
2. Microsoft
3. Intel
4. Cisco
5. Computers
6. Commercial internet
7. MRI
8. Barcode scanners
9. Hearing Aids

Take a guess at how many billions these NSF spawned companies and products have contributed to the economy and how many millions of jobs they created?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

We are letting the price rise, in fact the price of oil has risen 70o% in the past 6 years. I don't know about you but I'm only starting to see alternatives.



Things we directly or indirectly owe the NSF for:
1. Google
2. Microsoft
3. Intel
4. Cisco
5. Computers
6. Commercial internet
7. MRI
8. Barcode scanners
9. Hearing Aids

Take a guess at how many billions these NSF spawned companies and products have contributed to the economy and how many millions of jobs they created?

Good thing the government was wise enough to put these things in private hands so they could benefit society en masse.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

We are letting the price rise, ... I'm ...starting to see alternatives.

Exactly.

 

[Mr.Conley]

If it takes a 700% rise to get people to start to talk about implementing serious conservation measures then whats it going to take to get things really going? This country would not outlast oil in the hundreds of dollars per barrel range. I'm all for the private industry taking the lead in developing alternatives. I find that in general the private industry does things better than the government. The problem is that right now no one is doing anything on a large enough scale to seriously confront the problem. The government however has the resources to at least help. Now I don't now about you but I find that if anyone puts a few billion dollars to solving a problem we're much more likely to find a solution than if they didn't. I fully support anything that gives us a greater chance of getting out of this quandry as intact as possible.

 

[theHawk]

Again I would go with you her e but my concen is what would happen to LA, San Francisco, San Diego, etc. We would either have to find some way to ship the amount of food 10 million people require at least 50 miles without oil (possibly some horse based transportation system? Then we'd have to feed the horses anad 50 miles is a llong distance at 2-5 miles per hour.) That or moe them to the farm belt and prevent them from eating the entire thing plus the whole refrigeration/storage/processing for all that food.

We will always need oil for machinery, even if the fuel comes from other means. What about using trains / monorails?

 

[Mr.Conley]

Good thing the government was wise enough to put these things in private hands so they could benefit society en masse.

Ok, obviously you have no clue as to how the National Science Foundation operates. Allow me to enlighten you.

The NSF is composed of two different components. The director of the NSF oversees the day to day operations of the agency and ensures the continued operation and free access to NSF observatories and stations to any interest American scientist. Thats right, the NSF keeps open several astronomy observatories that ANY American scientist can access at any time. Allowing for anyone to contribute to our knowlege and understanding of the universe.

The second, primary, part of the NSF consists of a panel of 25 members selected from the our best research institutes. THese 25 memebers review over 10,000 proposals annual from US colleges, intitutions, and yes, private companies seeking funding for projects that though thye might not offer any immediate economic benefit expand our knowledge and often do end up profondly changing our day to day lives (For proof, look at your computer). Accepted proposals recieve funding to carry on there stated goal on the condition that there finding are published for the advancement of the general scientific community and so others can use the knowledge to expand their own research or economic projects. This is the key part, they keep our scientific knowledge open, so others scientists can view and verify the results, can look at the information in new ways, and incite further process. THe NSF also maintains strict standards of discipline and behavior in conduct and action of all scientist working with NSF funded grants. Hopefully now you see how the NSF provides an open forum for knowledge that private companies would not offer as well providing otherwise forgotten but important scientific projects with the money they need to get off the ground.

 

[Mr.Conley]

We will always need oil for machinery, even if the fuel comes from other means. What about using trains / monorails?

Excellent a train/monorail/maglev powered by electricity would be fast and effiecent; however, would would have to extend the rail network and build more trains and begin the transition process before the price of oil made this nearly impossibile. Thats the key. There are a lot of potential solutions, but there isn't enough research yet on most and the ones that are economically viable are not being implemented.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Ok, obviously you have no clue as to how the National Science Foundation operates. Allow me to enlighten you.

The NSF is composed of two different components. The director of the NSF oversees the day to day operations of the agency and ensures the continued operation and free access to NSF observatories and stations to any interest American scientist. Thats right, the NSF keeps open several astronomy observatories that ANY American scientist can access at any time. Allowing for anyone to contribute to our knowlege and understanding of the universe.

The second, primary, part of the NSF consists of a panel of 25 members selected from the our best research institutes. THese 25 memebers review over 10,000 proposals annual from US colleges, intitutions, and yes, private companies seeking funding for projects that though thye might not offer any immediate economic benefit expand our knowledge and often do end up profondly changing our day to day lives (For proof, look at your computer). Accepted proposals recieve funding to carry on there stated goal on the condition that there finding are published for the advancement of the general scientific community and so others can use the knowledge to expand their own research or economic projects. This is the key part, they keep our scientific knowledge open, so others scientists can view and verify the results, can look at the information in new ways, and incite further process. THe NSF also maintains strict standards of discipline and behavior in conduct and action of all scientist working with NSF funded grants. Hopefully now you see how the NSF provides an open forum for knowledge that private companies would not offer as well providing otherwise forgotten but important scientific projects with the money they need to get off the ground.

Whatever. My point is that the developments never blossomed to their full potential in society until private interests got involved. Can you understand that simple concept?

 

[dilloduck]

If it takes a 700% rise to get people to start to talk about implementing serious conservation measures then whats it going to take to get things really going? This country would not outlast oil in the hundreds of dollars per barrel range. I'm all for the private industry taking the lead in developing alternatives. I find that in general the private industry does things better than the government. The problem is that right now no one is doing anything on a large enough scale to seriously confront the problem. The government however has the resources to at least help. Now I don't now about you but I find that if anyone puts a few billion dollars to solving a problem we're much more likely to find a solution than if they didn't. I fully support anything that gives us a greater chance of getting out of this quandry as intact as possible.

Right---like the Big Dig and numerous other projects the government has "thrown a few billions at".

 

[Said1]

Whatever. My point is that the developments never blossomed to their full potential in society until private interests got involved. Can you understand that simple concept?

Venture capital vs Grants. Hmmm.

 

[Mr.Conley]

Whatever. My point is that the developments never blossomed to their full potential in society until private interests got involved. Can you understand that simple concept?

Can you understand that the private interests wouldn't have been able to develop the idea if the NSF hadn't been there to fund the basic research first? Its because the NSF is much more willing to invest in projects with no guaranteed profit that a lot of this stuff comes around. Private firms also do a great deal, but the NSF's commitment to basic research and standards is nessicary for the advancement of science as well. The NSF does a lot of good work in science and for the advancement of the nation; they would be an ideal way to get the government involved. Its an ideal combination of massive government resources combined with competition among private companies and high standerds to produce some of the best science on the planet.

Right---like the Big Dig and numerous other projects the government has "thrown a few billions at"

Right, the government did, "throw a few billion at," the Big Dig and Boston got an effective transportation system. It was morbidly expensive and took far too long but the job did get done or at least it got more done than if the government hadn't, "throw a few billion at," it. I'm not saying that the government is always perfect whenever it invest money, though private companies aren't either, but government backing tends to make things happen (or at least less of a hassle). Private companies can and should invest in finding new sources of energy, but that doesn't mean the government shouldn't get involved to get the process moving.

Fortunately, the NSF has protective measures inplace to prevent coruption. The board that chooses the government is from outside the NSF and is screened to ensure they have no connection with any of the projects up for grants. The process is also kept competitive to keep costs down and see that the best science recieves funding