CDZ Fear and guns....a discussion.

[2aguy]

ALL GUNS ARE WRONG IN A CIVILIZED SOCIETY

Dear theliq
I would agree with you that the purpose and best use of arms
is for defense and deterrence, where ideally they don't have to be used at all.

I have met many police and peace officers who carry guns for dangerous situations that may require that,
but they don't depend on that, and do most of their deterrence and police work
by breaking up confrontations or preventing them completely CIVILLY.

You are right, for the most part the guns are not used but are there so they won't have to be!
That's the way it should be.

However, can you show a me a civilized society
that didn't still have criminally aggressive people who were effectively deterred by police carrying guns?

Because society and people aren't perfect, and there are still criminal people who
don't get help in advance, but are only discovered after they cause threats or problems to people,
then guns are still necessary in case of emergencies.

As we progress, and we can diagnose treat and cure the causes of criminal illness and behavior,
we can do more and more of the correctional work in advance and by civil means.

We won't have to rely so much on the point of confrontation with police,
or wait until after someone has stalked and killed people and is going to prison
BEFORE we get sick people help at the first sign of criminal abuse or dangerous addiction.

Until then, guns are still necessary, but in the right hands
of trained officers, they won't necessarily need to be used.

I completely agree with you Emily....Law Enforcement,The Military and some Proper Gun Clubs should have the ability to carry a Gun......but NO ONE else,steve but I can't see it happening in the US,so many folk think it's safer to carry a Gun.........Which is Totally Mental when you think about it,just sayin

Hi theliq
What is wrong with training security guards and other citizens
using the same process, including screening, required of police and military?

That's like training more people to do CPR or use a defibrillator,
instead of only the professional EMS, doctors and nurses.

Anyone can take lifeguard training, but there ARE certain steps you do and don't do.
The safety precautions HAVE to be followed, such as not letting a drowning person take you under.
Same with CPR and other first aid / first response procedures that have to be followed,
such as not moving a person with a possible head/spinal injury.

It doesn't make the training any less rigorous just because the person isn't a paid professional.
Why can the training, oath and screening required of officers and militaries
be offered to (or required of) ALL citizens who want this same responsibility for using arms for defense?

In answer to your last paragraph, Emily, that's what NRA is all about along with gun range instructors. Military people learn about guns and gun safety and it sticks with them for life.

If only it were true....the Discredited NRA,want everyone and anyone to have Guns in the USA,be you a gentle soul or Terrorist...it's simple they can all buy Guns........with NO Control because Americans cannot Control themselves, let alone others...Hoss it's just a shameful fact of American life......had your forefathers realised what a lot of Loboes some Americans would turn out to be generations later,they would Never have given you the 4th....they must be spinning in their Graves ...may they R.I.P..........................steve

So you realize that there are 357 million guns in private hands......and only 8,124 gun murders, which means less than 8,124 guns are used to commit murder in this country.

Actual research shows that the majority of those who use guns to commit murder are violent career criminals murdering other career criminals...which means your entire post is wrong....you do not know what you are talking about.

356,991,876 million guns in private hands are not used to commit crime or murder anyone.....

356,991,876 vs. less than 8,124 which number is bigger and by how much?

Do you see how wrong you are?

And the cherished Europe with their gun control laws.....in the 1940s the countries of Europe marched 12 million unarmed people into gas chambers....after they disarmed them. And then after the war...they allowed themselves to be disarmed again...thinking that there is no way it could ever happen again....

Who is the more foolish, us or them?

 

[M14 Shooter]

From those that want to further limit the rights of the law abiding:

Right side of mouth:
"Violent crime is not so bad that you need a gun to protect yourself"

Left side of mouth:
"Violent crime is so bad that we need to further limit your right to a gun"

And they wonder why we oppose them.

 

[2aguy]

If you have a fire extinguisher, does that mean you're afraid of fires? No, it means you are prepared.

What a stupid example..............like saying I wear boots in the rain when it rains,because I'm prepared.........Stupid is a stupid speaks,methinks

theliq What's wrong with that?
Yes, having your rain boots DOES show you are prepared to handle rain.
That's a good thing to be prepared, are you being sarcastic?
As if this is stating the obvious and that's what makes it so "stupid"?
Did I miss something?

Emily....Well I was being somewhat Sarcastic in as much that comparing preparedness of rain boots or fire extinguishers to people carrying and potentially using a Gun(because they are frightened of a shadow or frightened of their own shadow) of this there is no comparison at all.steve

In 2013 there were 11.1 million people carrying guns for self defense....there were over 320 million guns in private hands...

Our violent gun crime rate went down, not up...our accidental gun death rate went down, not up.

Since the actual facts, truth and reality show you are wrong....do you see how your post is meaningless?

 

[2aguy]

Still think you have this thing about Hillary .....Hoss.....steve

Hi theliq
RE: "this thing about Hillary"

There may be a lot of this "anti-Hillary bias" that is personal and/or sexist to some degree.
But my God, Hillary hasn't done much to help the horrible reputation she brought on largely herself.

I can see how Sarah Palin comes across wrong to people who don't get her either.
But Hillary, even more so. Sorry, but I don't see her as a helpless victim in this case.
Much of it is her own ambitions, where her profession benefits from this very image.
It goes both ways. So what she did to earn the reputation of being tough and ruthless
is naturally going to come back and bite her.

For the sexism part or from being a Democrat,
yes, the biases against Hillary are made WORSE for those two additional factors.
But even if she were male, she'd STILL would get jumped on because this is politics.
Look at Sarah Palin -- she also gets targeted with remarks about her gender.

I think the worst thing Hillary gets jumped on for is being the
VERY epitome of the power grabbing Democrat/Liberal
who puts power and party first, and the Constitution and interests of the ENTIRE public
(including rightwing conservatives) second in order to get favor of voting constituents to win office.

She fits the worst case stereotype of corrupt exploitative Liberal politicians
CLAIMING to represent the "victim class" when in practice is benefiting off politics by exploiting this vote.

So anyone who hates what Liberals stand for, is going to hate on Hillary Clinton
for claiming to be the champion of that crowd.

Of course people are going to have 'this thing' about Hillary.
if she pushes herself as representing a certain liberal ideology, then hating that comes with the territory.

How can you fault people for falling for this very bait?
Hillary deliberately USES that fear and hatred to lobby politically, she benefits from it!

Aren't both sides to blame for setting up and playing the game this way to be so divisive?
To draw publicity and votes by bullying, fear and hatred? How can you blame one
and not the other?

I have an ongoing tease with Hoss about Hillary C because he often uses derogatory pics of her...I know he can't stand her ...BUT often those that do this sort of denial really like the person!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I think it's sexual with my good friend Hoss,maybe not.....I therefore tease him about it.........Life is not all seriousness,I like to tease generally but with Hoss more so.....Yeah say it......I have a warped mind.......You could well be right but I can't change..LOL..steve ps I really enjoy your prose and posts Emily...I note you have been on USMB for 6 years,how come I have never come across you before??????Definately sic MY LOSS

theliq I think you are wonderful too!
maybe I've been practicing on other people until I am good enough to talk with you ;-)
to be on your level, I had to work on it for six years

As for teasing people about Hillary C'mon
there's something called the 8th Amendment
against "cruel and unusual punishment"

What did these ppl do to deserve THAT?

Saying they have a closet thing for Hillary
is worse than teasing a guy about being gay!

OMG you are a nice thoughtful person
so why would you have that mean streak
are you trying to get yourself clobbered?
please don't, I would like you to stay fully intact and in one piece! ;-)

I really think you can carry deep insightful discussion
with no need to poke "too much" at people

teasing about Sarah Palin is one thing
(guys like teasing about how hot she is)
but Hillary, please have some respect
for humanity's sake, please! ;-)

[At least you aren't teasing that guy who
has a thing for Jodi Arias. I guess there
is something worse than Hillary Clinton....]

Emily,Now who's being Sarcastic,but I like you for it......LOL......yep I must admit I do like confrontation sometimes,but when folk get worked up and start abusing me,...well it's all "Shit off a Ducks back to me".

I find it very strange that Americans have such thin skins(you see what is happening here,I am raising the temperature up to get a reaction)

Let me say though and it's not about me,but you,a lot of Guys and Ladies think I can be a little difficult,and I agree,Aussies are by nature a little Bolshi,we do have a fairly low regard for Authority.

Now you can make you mind up on how Wonderful I am.......When that person.Sarah Palin was at her pathetic zenith.........this was a joke about her,here in Ausland aka Paradise................by the way we had very little regard for her in this country,actually we thought she was a little unhinged....anyway to the joke


What is the difference between Sarah Palin and a Ten Pin Bowling Ball ?......You can only get 3 fingers in a Ten Pin Bowling Ball !!!!!

As I said,we have a totally different sense of humour to you Americans..it is just the way we are

Now I think I'll Chill for a while

Aussies are by nature a little Bolshi,we do have a fairly low regard for Authority.

Except when they tell you you can't handle owning guns......then you fall right under their orders.......just like the Jews did in the Weimar Repbulic......

 

[2aguy]

Still think you have this thing about Hillary .....Hoss.....steve

Hi theliq
RE: "this thing about Hillary"

There may be a lot of this "anti-Hillary bias" that is personal and/or sexist to some degree.
But my God, Hillary hasn't done much to help the horrible reputation she brought on largely herself.

I can see how Sarah Palin comes across wrong to people who don't get her either.
But Hillary, even more so. Sorry, but I don't see her as a helpless victim in this case.
Much of it is her own ambitions, where her profession benefits from this very image.
It goes both ways. So what she did to earn the reputation of being tough and ruthless
is naturally going to come back and bite her.

For the sexism part or from being a Democrat,
yes, the biases against Hillary are made WORSE for those two additional factors.
But even if she were male, she'd STILL would get jumped on because this is politics.
Look at Sarah Palin -- she also gets targeted with remarks about her gender.

I think the worst thing Hillary gets jumped on for is being the
VERY epitome of the power grabbing Democrat/Liberal
who puts power and party first, and the Constitution and interests of the ENTIRE public
(including rightwing conservatives) second in order to get favor of voting constituents to win office.

She fits the worst case stereotype of corrupt exploitative Liberal politicians
CLAIMING to represent the "victim class" when in practice is benefiting off politics by exploiting this vote.

So anyone who hates what Liberals stand for, is going to hate on Hillary Clinton
for claiming to be the champion of that crowd.

Of course people are going to have 'this thing' about Hillary.
if she pushes herself as representing a certain liberal ideology, then hating that comes with the territory.

How can you fault people for falling for this very bait?
Hillary deliberately USES that fear and hatred to lobby politically, she benefits from it!

Aren't both sides to blame for setting up and playing the game this way to be so divisive?
To draw publicity and votes by bullying, fear and hatred? How can you blame one
and not the other?

I have an ongoing tease with Hoss about Hillary C because he often uses derogatory pics of her...I know he can't stand her ...BUT often those that do this sort of denial really like the person!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I think it's sexual with my good friend Hoss,maybe not.....I therefore tease him about it.........Life is not all seriousness,I like to tease generally but with Hoss more so.....Yeah say it......I have a warped mind.......You could well be right but I can't change..LOL..steve ps I really enjoy your prose and posts Emily...I note you have been on USMB for 6 years,how come I have never come across you before??????Definately sic MY LOSS

theliq I think you are wonderful too!
maybe I've been practicing on other people until I am good enough to talk with you ;-)
to be on your level, I had to work on it for six years

As for teasing people about Hillary C'mon
there's something called the 8th Amendment
against "cruel and unusual punishment"

What did these ppl do to deserve THAT?

Saying they have a closet thing for Hillary
is worse than teasing a guy about being gay!

OMG you are a nice thoughtful person
so why would you have that mean streak
are you trying to get yourself clobbered?
please don't, I would like you to stay fully intact and in one piece! ;-)

I really think you can carry deep insightful discussion
with no need to poke "too much" at people

teasing about Sarah Palin is one thing
(guys like teasing about how hot she is)
but Hillary, please have some respect
for humanity's sake, please! ;-)

[At least you aren't teasing that guy who
has a thing for Jodi Arias. I guess there
is something worse than Hillary Clinton....]

Emily,Now who's being Sarcastic,but I like you for it......LOL......yep I must admit I do like confrontation sometimes,but when folk get worked up and start abusing me,...well it's all "Shit off a Ducks back to me".

I find it very strange that Americans have such thin skins(you see what is happening here,I am raising the temperature up to get a reaction)

Let me say though and it's not about me,but you,a lot of Guys and Ladies think I can be a little difficult,and I agree,Aussies are by nature a little Bolshi,we do have a fairly low regard for Authority.

Now you can make you mind up on how Wonderful I am.......When that person.Sarah Palin was at her pathetic zenith.........this was a joke about her,here in Ausland aka Paradise................by the way we had very little regard for her in this country,actually we thought she was a little unhinged....anyway to the joke


What is the difference between Sarah Palin and a Ten Pin Bowling Ball ?......You can only get 3 fingers in a Ten Pin Bowling Ball !!!!!

As I said,we have a totally different sense of humour to you Americans..it is just the way we are

Now I think I'll Chill for a while

CDZ please pay attention to that........Mocking Republicans will not be tolerated.

 

[ChrisL]

Dear theliq
I would agree with you that the purpose and best use of arms
is for defense and deterrence, where ideally they don't have to be used at all.

I have met many police and peace officers who carry guns for dangerous situations that may require that,
but they don't depend on that, and do most of their deterrence and police work
by breaking up confrontations or preventing them completely CIVILLY.

You are right, for the most part the guns are not used but are there so they won't have to be!
That's the way it should be.

However, can you show a me a civilized society
that didn't still have criminally aggressive people who were effectively deterred by police carrying guns?

Because society and people aren't perfect, and there are still criminal people who
don't get help in advance, but are only discovered after they cause threats or problems to people,
then guns are still necessary in case of emergencies.

As we progress, and we can diagnose treat and cure the causes of criminal illness and behavior,
we can do more and more of the correctional work in advance and by civil means.

We won't have to rely so much on the point of confrontation with police,
or wait until after someone has stalked and killed people and is going to prison
BEFORE we get sick people help at the first sign of criminal abuse or dangerous addiction.

Until then, guns are still necessary, but in the right hands
of trained officers, they won't necessarily need to be used.

I completely agree with you Emily....Law Enforcement,The Military and some Proper Gun Clubs should have the ability to carry a Gun......but NO ONE else,steve but I can't see it happening in the US,so many folk think it's safer to carry a Gun.........Which is Totally Mental when you think about it,just sayin

Hi theliq
What is wrong with training security guards and other citizens
using the same process, including screening, required of police and military?

That's like training more people to do CPR or use a defibrillator,
instead of only the professional EMS, doctors and nurses.

Anyone can take lifeguard training, but there ARE certain steps you do and don't do.
The safety precautions HAVE to be followed, such as not letting a drowning person take you under.
Same with CPR and other first aid / first response procedures that have to be followed,
such as not moving a person with a possible head/spinal injury.

It doesn't make the training any less rigorous just because the person isn't a paid professional.
Why can the training, oath and screening required of officers and militaries
be offered to (or required of) ALL citizens who want this same responsibility for using arms for defense?

In answer to your last paragraph, Emily, that's what NRA is all about along with gun range instructors. Military people learn about guns and gun safety and it sticks with them for life.

If only it were true....the Discredited NRA,want everyone and anyone to have Guns in the USA,be you a gentle soul or Terrorist...it's simple they can all buy Guns........with NO Control because Americans cannot Control themselves, let alone others...Hoss it's just a shameful fact of American life......had your forefathers realised what a lot of Loboes some Americans would turn out to be generations later,they would Never have given you the 4th....they must be spinning in their Graves ...may they R.I.P..........................steve

So you realize that there are 357 million guns in private hands......and only 8,124 gun murders, which means less than 8,124 guns are used to commit murder in this country.

Actual research shows that the majority of those who use guns to commit murder are violent career criminals murdering other career criminals...which means your entire post is wrong....you do not know what you are talking about.

356,991,876 million guns in private hands are not used to commit crime or murder anyone.....

356,991,876 vs. less than 8,124 which number is bigger and by how much?

Do you see how wrong you are?

And the cherished Europe with their gun control laws.....in the 1940s the countries of Europe marched 12 million unarmed people into gas chambers....after they disarmed them. And then after the war...they allowed themselves to be disarmed again...thinking that there is no way it could ever happen again....

Who is the more foolish, us or them?

You give some of these people WAY too much credit.

 

[2aguy]

Well, nobody cares about Australia, I understand, but I'm sure you could find somebody to talk to you.

The US are very happy to have our support when things go Tits Up

Your military??? Hilarious!

World Renown.......Never in close Combat with Americans for fear of Friendly Fire........FACT BIG MOUTH

Do you have anything to add to THIS topic? It doesn't seem like it. If not, I would suggest you get lost, and don't come back.

As we say in Australia....Get Fcuked Moron

Please do not post here...this is the Clean Debate Zone....and of course as a lefty you violated that......please do not post, you have been reported.

 

[ChrisL]

They don't care about the facts, just an ideological viewpoint.

 

[2aguy]

this is in the CDZ because it gets a little old when some start talking sex organs and guns.....

soooo....

We are constantly told that if you carry a gun you are afraid.

Is this true.

No.

Carrying a gun for self defense is a rational response to the reality that even though I know where I live is ver safe, there are still criminals out there and that you never know when one will target you. These things happen every day, in every state, in every country.

How much fear goes into carrying a gun...for me....there is about as much emotion to carrying a gun as there is carrying my cell phone.

Now....the other side...the one that is constantly accusing my side of being afraid.....I believe that fear is what they feel....especially about guns. The don't like people, but they hate guns in the hands of people.

For example.

There are over 3,700,000 AR-15s in private hands in this country.

Each year maybe, maybe, 2-3 are used in any type of crime or even a mass shooting.

With those numbers, those who I believe fear guns want all AR-15s banned from private hands. To me, that is real fear. The numbers show that the odds of being a victim of a violent attack by an attacker with an AR-15 are so remote...you would actually have more of a chance of running into Big Foot and Elvis having Lunch with Aliens.....

And yet, they call for all AR-15s and other rifles like it to be completely banned.

And yet even if AR-15s are completely banned, there is not one crime that is committed on those rare occasions where an AR-15 is used that cannot be done to the same effect with a pistol, shot gun or other rifle or a combination of those......

Yet we are called scaredy cats for wearing a gun like we wear a cell phone or buckle our seat belts.

To a rational person....who sounds more afraid of guns...who sounds more filled with actual fear...?

Carrying a gun when going into a situation that could be dangerous is rational. Carrying a gun every moment you are outside your door... that is fear.

And the woman who was raped in the college parking lot, 50 ft. from the campus police station. She had to leave her gun at home that night because the campus was a gun free zone....except for the rapist....he brought his gun there....

Do you think she was dumb to want to carry her gun on campus that night?

And the rapist.....raped 3 other women after that woman, and murdered the 3rd...........so the gun free zone very likely contributed to several rapes and one murder....

I am very familiar with this case. You and I went over this before. You did not mentioned here that she was caught by surprised from behind to fit your agenda....... A rapist or thugs will NEVER make an announcement I'm going to rape you in 15 minutes..... I think you don't know that.....
Even if she carried her gun with her. Where do you think her gun was tucked or carry with her? In her vagina? Walking around with a gun in her hand? Have you seen anyone walking to parking lot with a gun in their hand? For you to make this kind of example to fit your propaganda is pathetic.
I also told you maybe this is the third time that I got rob by 2 thugs in Atlantic city casino parking lots.
If I had my gun with me in my waist. My chances of pulling my gun unlock the safety then fire..... is zero.... none...... no chance........ But 100% they could have killed me.

again....you don't seem to know guns.....not all of them, in fact most of the modern pistols have no manual safety.....and to say she was better off just getting raped than having a chance to stop it with a gun is just nuts. Using a gun is not the same as Brazilian Ju Jutsu....all she has to do is get her hand on the butt of the pistol and put her finger in the trigger then move the end of the weapon across the attackers body, even an arm or a leg, and exert about 5lbs. of pressure on the trigger.........

This myth that only the criminal will be competent and capable during a violent attack is just that, a myth.....the woman in my other example was pistol whipped, and facing 3 armed men and still managed to get to her gun that wasn't even on her body...and shot one of them and the others ran off...

So the situations you create have no bearing on actual self defense....

but keep pushing women to be disarmed in the face of a violent, murderer rapist....had she had that gun several women's lives would not have been changed forever and the other one would still be alive.

Try to actually do some research .....you might then know what you are talking about.

 

[M14 Shooter]

I am very familiar with this case. You and I went over this before. You did not mentioned here that she was caught by surprised from behind to fit your agenda....... A rapist or thugs will NEVER make an announcement I'm going to rape you in 15 minutes..... I think you don't know that.....
Even if she carried her gun with her. Where do you think her gun was tucked or carry with her? In her vagina? Walking around with a gun in her hand? Have you seen anyone walking to parking lot with a gun in their hand? For you to make this kind of example to fit your propaganda is pathetic.
I also told you maybe this is the third time that I got rob by 2 thugs in Atlantic city casino parking lots.
If I had my gun with me in my waist. My chances of pulling my gun unlock the safety then fire..... is zero.... none...... no chance........ But 100% they could have killed me.

Do you understand that the fact you can come up with a scenario where carrying gun may not help someone does not in any way create a sound argument against carrying a gun?

 

[charwin95]

this is in the CDZ because it gets a little old when some start talking sex organs and guns.....

soooo....

We are constantly told that if you carry a gun you are afraid.

Is this true.

No.

Carrying a gun for self defense is a rational response to the reality that even though I know where I live is ver safe, there are still criminals out there and that you never know when one will target you. These things happen every day, in every state, in every country.

How much fear goes into carrying a gun...for me....there is about as much emotion to carrying a gun as there is carrying my cell phone.

Now....the other side...the one that is constantly accusing my side of being afraid.....I believe that fear is what they feel....especially about guns. The don't like people, but they hate guns in the hands of people.

For example.

There are over 3,700,000 AR-15s in private hands in this country.

Each year maybe, maybe, 2-3 are used in any type of crime or even a mass shooting.

With those numbers, those who I believe fear guns want all AR-15s banned from private hands. To me, that is real fear. The numbers show that the odds of being a victim of a violent attack by an attacker with an AR-15 are so remote...you would actually have more of a chance of running into Big Foot and Elvis having Lunch with Aliens.....

And yet, they call for all AR-15s and other rifles like it to be completely banned.

And yet even if AR-15s are completely banned, there is not one crime that is committed on those rare occasions where an AR-15 is used that cannot be done to the same effect with a pistol, shot gun or other rifle or a combination of those......

Yet we are called scaredy cats for wearing a gun like we wear a cell phone or buckle our seat belts.

To a rational person....who sounds more afraid of guns...who sounds more filled with actual fear...?

Carrying a gun when going into a situation that could be dangerous is rational. Carrying a gun every moment you are outside your door... that is fear.

And how do you know this. There are thousands of if not 10s of thousands of people who go outside, and get robbed, raped and murdered, never expecting that to happen........and had no idea that that was the day it was going to happen.....

Even in Joe Biden's neighborhood, and Barak Obama's Chicago neighborhood they have had violent murders.......

So you need to be armed at all times in order to feel safe. That is sad. You'd think we lived in a 3rd world country.

These are the people that armed themselves when they go to sleep. Sand bags front of their porch. And body armor when they leave their house.

You are so far off base, it's not even funny. IF anyone is showing fear here, it is you who live in fear of law-abiding citizens practicing their 2nd Amendment right.

That is just too bad and so sad for you. Your fear does not dictate the rights of others.

Who says it's funny? I traveled a lot I don't carry guns...... Do I look scared? I know tons of people and some are qualified to be called gun nuts. And they do far more extreme for protection than I previously mentioned. I can almost call its addiction or paranoia.
I never said law citizens stop protecting themselves. Keep that in mind.

 

[charwin95]

this is in the CDZ because it gets a little old when some start talking sex organs and guns.....

soooo....

We are constantly told that if you carry a gun you are afraid.

Is this true.

No.

Carrying a gun for self defense is a rational response to the reality that even though I know where I live is ver safe, there are still criminals out there and that you never know when one will target you. These things happen every day, in every state, in every country.

How much fear goes into carrying a gun...for me....there is about as much emotion to carrying a gun as there is carrying my cell phone.

Now....the other side...the one that is constantly accusing my side of being afraid.....I believe that fear is what they feel....especially about guns. The don't like people, but they hate guns in the hands of people.

For example.

There are over 3,700,000 AR-15s in private hands in this country.

Each year maybe, maybe, 2-3 are used in any type of crime or even a mass shooting.

With those numbers, those who I believe fear guns want all AR-15s banned from private hands. To me, that is real fear. The numbers show that the odds of being a victim of a violent attack by an attacker with an AR-15 are so remote...you would actually have more of a chance of running into Big Foot and Elvis having Lunch with Aliens.....

And yet, they call for all AR-15s and other rifles like it to be completely banned.

And yet even if AR-15s are completely banned, there is not one crime that is committed on those rare occasions where an AR-15 is used that cannot be done to the same effect with a pistol, shot gun or other rifle or a combination of those......

Yet we are called scaredy cats for wearing a gun like we wear a cell phone or buckle our seat belts.

To a rational person....who sounds more afraid of guns...who sounds more filled with actual fear...?

Carrying a gun when going into a situation that could be dangerous is rational. Carrying a gun every moment you are outside your door... that is fear.

And the woman who was raped in the college parking lot, 50 ft. from the campus police station. She had to leave her gun at home that night because the campus was a gun free zone....except for the rapist....he brought his gun there....

Do you think she was dumb to want to carry her gun on campus that night?

And the rapist.....raped 3 other women after that woman, and murdered the 3rd...........so the gun free zone very likely contributed to several rapes and one murder....

I am very familiar with this case. You and I went over this before. You did not mentioned here that she was caught by surprised from behind to fit your agenda....... A rapist or thugs will NEVER make an announcement I'm going to rape you in 15 minutes..... I think you don't know that.....
Even if she carried her gun with her. Where do you think her gun was tucked or carry with her? In her vagina? Walking around with a gun in her hand? Have you seen anyone walking to parking lot with a gun in their hand? For you to make this kind of example to fit your propaganda is pathetic.
I also told you maybe this is the third time that I got rob by 2 thugs in Atlantic city casino parking lots.
If I had my gun with me in my waist. My chances of pulling my gun unlock the safety then fire..... is zero.... none...... no chance........ But 100% they could have killed me.

I would rather take my chances with a gun. K? You don't get to tell me that I cannot have the opportunity to defend myself against potential attackers. There are plenty of instances in which a gun could save your life.

Try to stay with the topic...... Did I told you or anyone else stop protecting themselves?
You don't get to tell me that I should start arming myself because of fear.

 

[charwin95]

this is in the CDZ because it gets a little old when some start talking sex organs and guns.....

soooo....

We are constantly told that if you carry a gun you are afraid.

Is this true.

No.

Carrying a gun for self defense is a rational response to the reality that even though I know where I live is ver safe, there are still criminals out there and that you never know when one will target you. These things happen every day, in every state, in every country.

How much fear goes into carrying a gun...for me....there is about as much emotion to carrying a gun as there is carrying my cell phone.

Now....the other side...the one that is constantly accusing my side of being afraid.....I believe that fear is what they feel....especially about guns. The don't like people, but they hate guns in the hands of people.

For example.

There are over 3,700,000 AR-15s in private hands in this country.

Each year maybe, maybe, 2-3 are used in any type of crime or even a mass shooting.

With those numbers, those who I believe fear guns want all AR-15s banned from private hands. To me, that is real fear. The numbers show that the odds of being a victim of a violent attack by an attacker with an AR-15 are so remote...you would actually have more of a chance of running into Big Foot and Elvis having Lunch with Aliens.....

And yet, they call for all AR-15s and other rifles like it to be completely banned.

And yet even if AR-15s are completely banned, there is not one crime that is committed on those rare occasions where an AR-15 is used that cannot be done to the same effect with a pistol, shot gun or other rifle or a combination of those......

Yet we are called scaredy cats for wearing a gun like we wear a cell phone or buckle our seat belts.

To a rational person....who sounds more afraid of guns...who sounds more filled with actual fear...?

Carrying a gun when going into a situation that could be dangerous is rational. Carrying a gun every moment you are outside your door... that is fear.

And the woman who was raped in the college parking lot, 50 ft. from the campus police station. She had to leave her gun at home that night because the campus was a gun free zone....except for the rapist....he brought his gun there....

Do you think she was dumb to want to carry her gun on campus that night?

And the rapist.....raped 3 other women after that woman, and murdered the 3rd...........so the gun free zone very likely contributed to several rapes and one murder....

I am very familiar with this case. You and I went over this before. You did not mentioned here that she was caught by surprised from behind to fit your agenda....... A rapist or thugs will NEVER make an announcement I'm going to rape you in 15 minutes..... I think you don't know that.....
Even if she carried her gun with her. Where do you think her gun was tucked or carry with her? In her vagina? Walking around with a gun in her hand? Have you seen anyone walking to parking lot with a gun in their hand? For you to make this kind of example to fit your propaganda is pathetic.
I also told you maybe this is the third time that I got rob by 2 thugs in Atlantic city casino parking lots.
If I had my gun with me in my waist. My chances of pulling my gun unlock the safety then fire..... is zero.... none...... no chance........ But 100% they could have killed me.

What's pathetic is you wanting to leave women unarmed and defenseless because you are afraid of guns. THAT is pathetic.

What in the world are you talking about woman?
Read my hips...... Where in the world I say women should stop protecting themselves? You are way off and pathetic and dumb.

 

[charwin95]

Another example that Guy just made..... Husband and wife walking on beach in Caribbean when then they were attacked with a machete. Jessica Colker from Atlanta died with several blow to the head......
Since when you see people walking on beach with guns for protection? Have you ever seen one? It is sad for me to see that someone would use this kind of propaganda to spread fear.

 

[Tuatara]

What a stupid example..............like saying I wear boots in the rain when it rains,because I'm prepared.........Stupid is a stupid speaks,methinks

theliq What's wrong with that?
Yes, having your rain boots DOES show you are prepared to handle rain.
That's a good thing to be prepared, are you being sarcastic?
As if this is stating the obvious and that's what makes it so "stupid"?
Did I miss something?

Emily....Well I was being somewhat Sarcastic in as much that comparing preparedness of rain boots or fire extinguishers to people carrying and potentially using a Gun(because they are frightened of a shadow or frightened of their own shadow) of this there is no comparison at all.steve

Are you a United States citizen?

I still have My Green Card?

I'm quite sure you have your own "problems" to focus on. We aren't really interested in what foreigners think.

Too bad. You should be open to all ideas and opinions.

 

[Tuatara]

To the other side....can you answer this question...

The real world example.....

The woman who was raped on her college campus, 50 feet from the campus police station...who had to leave her gun at home because the campus was a gun free zone...and raped at gun point because the rapist brought a gun into the gun free zone....

Was she paranoid because she wanted to bring her gun with her to the campus that night?

And Suzanah Gratia Hupp......who left her gun in her truck when she went to dinner at Luby's Cafe...because it was a felony to carry a gun in her purse.....

Was she paranoid to want to carry her gun into the restauarant........even after the guy drove his truck into the restaurant and murdered her parents and a bunch of other people....

Were these women paranoid for wanting to carry a gun on them?

Not really on the other side but I would like to tackle this issue. First of all I'm saddened by these events. The girl at the campus, was she also not allowed to carry mace or pepper spray? I have heard these have adverted attackers in the past. Also somebody who is very paranoid carrying a weapon might discharge at someone who was just about to ask for directions or an individual pulling a stupid prank by trying to scare here. Anyone who approaches a scared woman in the dark could run the risk of accidentally getting shot. This has also happened in the past. Also the rapist might have killed her when he noticed she had a gun.

As for Suzanah Gratia Hupp, I do not know for sure if things would have worked out better is she had a gun. Maybe her parents would be alive today if she had it with her or maybe she would have died also. I understand the desire to protect yourself. I'm all for it except in these incidents of "accidents". Too many stories of people taking or stealing their parents/friends guns and causing more death and violence. If I knew for sure that her bringing the gun in would have prevented those deaths then yes I would support her right to carry.

Those are a lot of maybes.....considering that Americans actually use guns 1.5 million times a year to stop violent criminal attack. Have you ever actually researched the topic? Your post points to you not having actaully looked at gun self defense.

There were 11.1 million people carrying guns in 2013....and in 2013 there were only 505 accidental gun deaths....

Can you see how you are wrong in your concept?

How many accidental gun deaths would there be if there were zero people carrying guns in 2013. Also your stat about stopping violent attacks. How could any of these stats show that the violent attack would have ended up in a death.

 

[ChrisL]

theliq What's wrong with that?
Yes, having your rain boots DOES show you are prepared to handle rain.
That's a good thing to be prepared, are you being sarcastic?
As if this is stating the obvious and that's what makes it so "stupid"?
Did I miss something?

Emily....Well I was being somewhat Sarcastic in as much that comparing preparedness of rain boots or fire extinguishers to people carrying and potentially using a Gun(because they are frightened of a shadow or frightened of their own shadow) of this there is no comparison at all.steve

Are you a United States citizen?

I still have My Green Card?

I'm quite sure you have your own "problems" to focus on. We aren't really interested in what foreigners think.

Too bad. You should be open to all ideas and opinions.

Are you serious??? Have you read that guy's posts? Oh, ha-ha-ha!!! That's funny!

 

[ChrisL]

To the other side....can you answer this question...

The real world example.....

The woman who was raped on her college campus, 50 feet from the campus police station...who had to leave her gun at home because the campus was a gun free zone...and raped at gun point because the rapist brought a gun into the gun free zone....

Was she paranoid because she wanted to bring her gun with her to the campus that night?

And Suzanah Gratia Hupp......who left her gun in her truck when she went to dinner at Luby's Cafe...because it was a felony to carry a gun in her purse.....

Was she paranoid to want to carry her gun into the restauarant........even after the guy drove his truck into the restaurant and murdered her parents and a bunch of other people....

Were these women paranoid for wanting to carry a gun on them?

Not really on the other side but I would like to tackle this issue. First of all I'm saddened by these events. The girl at the campus, was she also not allowed to carry mace or pepper spray? I have heard these have adverted attackers in the past. Also somebody who is very paranoid carrying a weapon might discharge at someone who was just about to ask for directions or an individual pulling a stupid prank by trying to scare here. Anyone who approaches a scared woman in the dark could run the risk of accidentally getting shot. This has also happened in the past. Also the rapist might have killed her when he noticed she had a gun.

As for Suzanah Gratia Hupp, I do not know for sure if things would have worked out better is she had a gun. Maybe her parents would be alive today if she had it with her or maybe she would have died also. I understand the desire to protect yourself. I'm all for it except in these incidents of "accidents". Too many stories of people taking or stealing their parents/friends guns and causing more death and violence. If I knew for sure that her bringing the gun in would have prevented those deaths then yes I would support her right to carry.

Those are a lot of maybes.....considering that Americans actually use guns 1.5 million times a year to stop violent criminal attack. Have you ever actually researched the topic? Your post points to you not having actaully looked at gun self defense.

There were 11.1 million people carrying guns in 2013....and in 2013 there were only 505 accidental gun deaths....

Can you see how you are wrong in your concept?

How many accidental gun deaths would there be if there were zero people carrying guns in 2013. Also your stat about stopping violent attacks. How could any of these stats show that the violent attack would have ended up in a death.

The point is that most gun owners do not go around shooting people. Most of the people who do that are getting guns illegally and they are criminals. Is any of this making sense yet?

 

[ChrisL]

theliq What's wrong with that?
Yes, having your rain boots DOES show you are prepared to handle rain.
That's a good thing to be prepared, are you being sarcastic?
As if this is stating the obvious and that's what makes it so "stupid"?
Did I miss something?

Emily....Well I was being somewhat Sarcastic in as much that comparing preparedness of rain boots or fire extinguishers to people carrying and potentially using a Gun(because they are frightened of a shadow or frightened of their own shadow) of this there is no comparison at all.steve

Are you a United States citizen?

I still have My Green Card?

I'm quite sure you have your own "problems" to focus on. We aren't really interested in what foreigners think.

Too bad. You should be open to all ideas and opinions.

Ha-ha! Sorry, but that is too funny! Seriously???

 

[Tuatara]

Dear theliq
I would agree with you that the purpose and best use of arms
is for defense and deterrence, where ideally they don't have to be used at all.

I have met many police and peace officers who carry guns for dangerous situations that may require that,
but they don't depend on that, and do most of their deterrence and police work
by breaking up confrontations or preventing them completely CIVILLY.

You are right, for the most part the guns are not used but are there so they won't have to be!
That's the way it should be.

However, can you show a me a civilized society
that didn't still have criminally aggressive people who were effectively deterred by police carrying guns?

Because society and people aren't perfect, and there are still criminal people who
don't get help in advance, but are only discovered after they cause threats or problems to people,
then guns are still necessary in case of emergencies.

As we progress, and we can diagnose treat and cure the causes of criminal illness and behavior,
we can do more and more of the correctional work in advance and by civil means.

We won't have to rely so much on the point of confrontation with police,
or wait until after someone has stalked and killed people and is going to prison
BEFORE we get sick people help at the first sign of criminal abuse or dangerous addiction.

Until then, guns are still necessary, but in the right hands
of trained officers, they won't necessarily need to be used.

I completely agree with you Emily....Law Enforcement,The Military and some Proper Gun Clubs should have the ability to carry a Gun......but NO ONE else,steve but I can't see it happening in the US,so many folk think it's safer to carry a Gun.........Which is Totally Mental when you think about it,just sayin

Hi theliq
What is wrong with training security guards and other citizens
using the same process, including screening, required of police and military?

That's like training more people to do CPR or use a defibrillator,
instead of only the professional EMS, doctors and nurses.

Anyone can take lifeguard training, but there ARE certain steps you do and don't do.
The safety precautions HAVE to be followed, such as not letting a drowning person take you under.
Same with CPR and other first aid / first response procedures that have to be followed,
such as not moving a person with a possible head/spinal injury.

It doesn't make the training any less rigorous just because the person isn't a paid professional.
Why can the training, oath and screening required of officers and militaries
be offered to (or required of) ALL citizens who want this same responsibility for using arms for defense?

In answer to your last paragraph, Emily, that's what NRA is all about along with gun range instructors. Military people learn about guns and gun safety and it sticks with them for life.

If only it were true....the Discredited NRA,want everyone and anyone to have Guns in the USA,be you a gentle soul or Terrorist...it's simple they can all buy Guns........with NO Control because Americans cannot Control themselves, let alone others...Hoss it's just a shameful fact of American life......had your forefathers realised what a lot of Loboes some Americans would turn out to be generations later,they would Never have given you the 4th....they must be spinning in their Graves ...may they R.I.P..........................steve

So you realize that there are 357 million guns in private hands......and only 8,124 gun murders, which means less than 8,124 guns are used to commit murder in this country.

Actual research shows that the majority of those who use guns to commit murder are violent career criminals murdering other career criminals...which means your entire post is wrong....you do not know what you are talking about.

356,991,876 million guns in private hands are not used to commit crime or murder anyone.....

356,991,876 vs. less than 8,124 which number is bigger and by how much?

Do you see how wrong you are?

And the cherished Europe with their gun control laws.....in the 1940s the countries of Europe marched 12 million unarmed people into gas chambers....after they disarmed them. And then after the war...they allowed themselves to be disarmed again...thinking that there is no way it could ever happen again....

Who is the more foolish, us or them?

Just responding to the bolded part. The gun debate usually comes up after a mass shooting. In many of the cases of these mass shootings the perpertator was a law abiding citizen just before they committed these acts. You can't have a debate where you divide people up as either law abiding or criminal. Many law abiding citizens have killed people.