FDR's Progressive Doctrine vs The Union of Soviet Socialist Republic's Constitution

[8537]

Employing it's governmental strategy, the Soviet Union managed to starve hundreds of thousands of people, murder 39 million people, keep the average subject in abject poverty and enrich the wealthy few, and collapse under its own weight

Employing FDR's strategy, the United States has become the premiere economy in the world, seen a 70 year stretch of increasing freedoms, a burgeoning middle class that has more disposable income than just about any in the world, and found a way to care for the least fortunate.

Other than that, you might have a great comparison!

 

[JakeStarkey]

Any similarity is not important, is what I am saying.

You are trying to do guilt by association, and you are failing at it.

You've tried Republican by association and you totally fucked that up

Indeed it appears that he has done that.

Jake, I did not do guilt by association, I made a comparison of the two.

My reason for comparing the two is that a lot of the current language out of both parties in washington seems to mimic those two documents more and more over time and we have seen in history that running a government with such paramaters always ends up failing.

Are we that arrogant that we think that just because this is the USA we can do it better than everyone else in history? I hope not.

We have seen no such thing in our country. We have also seen Mexico adopt very similarly our constitution, and it is a failed state in many ways.

Your comparison simplistic and false.

 

[Bfgrn]

Any similarity is not important, is what I am saying.

You are trying to do guilt by association, and you are failing at it.

You've tried Republican by association and you totally fucked that up

Indeed it appears that he has done that.

Jake, I did not do guilt by association, I made a comparison of the two.

My reason for comparing the two is that a lot of the current language out of both parties in washington seems to mimic those two documents more and more over time and we have seen in history that running a government with such paramaters always ends up failing.

Are we that arrogant that we think that just because this is the USA we can do it better than everyone else in history? I hope not.

Hey pea brain...We DID run a government with such parameters...AND IT WORKED for 70 years before Ronbo Reagan, the pied piper down the road to serfdom and the authoritarian GOP began to dismantle the New Deal...

Employing FDR's strategy, the United States has become the premiere economy in the world, seen a 70 year stretch of increasing freedoms, a burgeoning middle class that has more disposable income than just about any in the world, and found a way to care for the least fortunate.

Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth.
Franklin D. Roosevelt

 

[JakeStarkey]

CrankyFrankly is a loon, guys. His kind is why the GOP has been in the minority the last four years and will continue to be so for the next fourteen.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

CrankyFrankly is a loon, guys. His kind is why the GOP has been in the minority the last four years and will continue to be so for the next fourteen.

Oh yeah?

 

[JakeStarkey]

I got that wrong about the House, didn't I, Plymco, but I did change that prediction about the second week of September.

What is interesting that the GOP threw away a wonderful opportunity this year to capitalize on BHO's weaknesses and the needs of the people.

 

[Intense]

FDR's Second bill of rights is one of the first examples of the progressive agenda in the united states

• the right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation; The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;
• The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;
• The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;
• The right of every family to a decent home;
• The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;
• The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;
• The right to a good education.
• All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.
• America’s own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for our citizens.

Compare that to the Soviet Socialist Republic's Constitution

Article 39. Citizens of the USSR enjoy in full the social, economic, political and personal rights and freedoms proclaimed and guaranteed by the Constitution of the USSR and by Soviet laws. The socialist system ensures enlargement of the rights and freedoms of citizens and continuous improvement of their living standards as social, economic, and cultural development programmes are fulfilled.

Enjoyment by citizens of their rights and freedoms must not be to the detriment of the interests of society or the state, or infringe the rights of other citizens.

Article 40. Citizens of the USSR have the right to work (that is, to guaranteed employment and pay in accordance wit the quantity and quality of their work, and not below the state-established minimum), including the right to choose their trade or profession, type of job and work in accordance with their inclinations, abilities, training and education, with due account of the needs of society.

This right is ensured by the socialist economic system, steady growth of the productive forces, free vocational and professional training, improvement of skills, training in new trades or professions, and development of the systems of vocational guidance and job placement.

Article 41. Citizens of the USSR have the right to rest and leisure.

This right is ensured by the establishment of a working week not exceeding 41 hours, for workers and other employees, a shorter working day in a number of trades and industries, and shorter hours for night work; by the provision of paid annual holidays, weekly days of rest, extension of the network of cultural, educational, and health-building institutions, and the development on a mass scale of sport, physical culture, and camping and tourism; by the provision of neighborhood recreational facilities, and of other opportunities for rational use of free time.

The length of collective farmers' working and leisure time is established by their collective farms.

Article 42. Citizens of the USSR have the right to health protection.

This right is ensured by free, qualified medical care provided by state health institutions; by extension of the network of therapeutic and health-building institutions; by the development and improvement of safety and hygiene in industry; by carrying out broad prophylactic measures; by measures to improve the environment; by special care for the health of the rising
generation, including prohibition of child labour, excluding the work done by children as part of the school curriculum; and by developing research to prevent and reduce the incidence of disease and ensure citizens a long and active life.

Article 43. Citizens of the USSR have the right to maintenance in old age, in sickness, and in the event of complete or partial disability or loss of the breadwinner.

The right is guaranteed by social insurance of workers and other employees and collective farmers; by allowances for temporary disability; by the provision by the state or by collective farms of retirement pensions, disability pensions, and pensions for loss of the breadwinner; by providing employment for the partially disabled; by care for the elderly and the disabled; and by other forms of social security.

Article 44. Citizens of the USSR have the rights to housing.

This right is ensured by the development and upkeep of state and socially-owned housing; by assistance for co-operative and individual house building; by fair distribution, under public control, of the housing that becomes available through fulfilment of the programme of building well-appointed dwellings, and by low rents and low charges for utility services. Citizens of the USSR shall take good care of the housing allocated to them.

Article 45. Citizens of the USSR have the right to education.

This right is ensured by free provision of all forms of education, by the institution of universal, compulsory secondary education, and broad development of vocational, specialised secondary, and higher education, in which instruction is oriented toward practical activity and production; by the development of extramural, correspondence and evening courses, by the
provision of state scholarships and grants and privileges for students; by the free issue of school textbooks; by the opportunity to attend a school where teaching is in the native language; and by the provision of facilities for self-education.

They are not exactly the same but some of the similarties shocked me when I reasearched the comparison I heard.

FDR never competed with the Soviets. What's with you.

 

[Wiseacre]

I got that wrong about the House, didn't I, Plymco, but I did change that prediction about the second week of September.

What is interesting that the GOP threw away a wonderful opportunity this year to capitalize on BHO's weaknesses and the needs of the people.[/QUOTE]


How so?

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

I got that wrong about the House, didn't I, Plymco, but I did change that prediction about the second week of September.

What is interesting that the GOP threw away a wonderful opportunity this year to capitalize on BHO's weaknesses and the needs of the people.[/QUOTE]


How so?

I'm not sure...the republicans did pass over a dozen bills aimed at creating a pro-jobs and pro-business atmosphere......

 

[CrusaderFrank]

FDR's Second bill of rights is one of the first examples of the progressive agenda in the united states

• the right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation; The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;
• The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;
• The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;
• The right of every family to a decent home;
• The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;
• The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;
• The right to a good education.
• All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.
• America’s own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for our citizens.

Compare that to the Soviet Socialist Republic's Constitution

Article 39. Citizens of the USSR enjoy in full the social, economic, political and personal rights and freedoms proclaimed and guaranteed by the Constitution of the USSR and by Soviet laws. The socialist system ensures enlargement of the rights and freedoms of citizens and continuous improvement of their living standards as social, economic, and cultural development programmes are fulfilled.

Enjoyment by citizens of their rights and freedoms must not be to the detriment of the interests of society or the state, or infringe the rights of other citizens.

Article 40. Citizens of the USSR have the right to work (that is, to guaranteed employment and pay in accordance wit the quantity and quality of their work, and not below the state-established minimum), including the right to choose their trade or profession, type of job and work in accordance with their inclinations, abilities, training and education, with due account of the needs of society.

This right is ensured by the socialist economic system, steady growth of the productive forces, free vocational and professional training, improvement of skills, training in new trades or professions, and development of the systems of vocational guidance and job placement.

Article 41. Citizens of the USSR have the right to rest and leisure.

This right is ensured by the establishment of a working week not exceeding 41 hours, for workers and other employees, a shorter working day in a number of trades and industries, and shorter hours for night work; by the provision of paid annual holidays, weekly days of rest, extension of the network of cultural, educational, and health-building institutions, and the development on a mass scale of sport, physical culture, and camping and tourism; by the provision of neighborhood recreational facilities, and of other opportunities for rational use of free time.

The length of collective farmers' working and leisure time is established by their collective farms.

Article 42. Citizens of the USSR have the right to health protection.

This right is ensured by free, qualified medical care provided by state health institutions; by extension of the network of therapeutic and health-building institutions; by the development and improvement of safety and hygiene in industry; by carrying out broad prophylactic measures; by measures to improve the environment; by special care for the health of the rising
generation, including prohibition of child labour, excluding the work done by children as part of the school curriculum; and by developing research to prevent and reduce the incidence of disease and ensure citizens a long and active life.

Article 43. Citizens of the USSR have the right to maintenance in old age, in sickness, and in the event of complete or partial disability or loss of the breadwinner.

The right is guaranteed by social insurance of workers and other employees and collective farmers; by allowances for temporary disability; by the provision by the state or by collective farms of retirement pensions, disability pensions, and pensions for loss of the breadwinner; by providing employment for the partially disabled; by care for the elderly and the disabled; and by other forms of social security.

Article 44. Citizens of the USSR have the rights to housing.

This right is ensured by the development and upkeep of state and socially-owned housing; by assistance for co-operative and individual house building; by fair distribution, under public control, of the housing that becomes available through fulfilment of the programme of building well-appointed dwellings, and by low rents and low charges for utility services. Citizens of the USSR shall take good care of the housing allocated to them.

Article 45. Citizens of the USSR have the right to education.

This right is ensured by free provision of all forms of education, by the institution of universal, compulsory secondary education, and broad development of vocational, specialised secondary, and higher education, in which instruction is oriented toward practical activity and production; by the development of extramural, correspondence and evening courses, by the
provision of state scholarships and grants and privileges for students; by the free issue of school textbooks; by the opportunity to attend a school where teaching is in the native language; and by the provision of facilities for self-education.

They are not exactly the same but some of the similarties shocked me when I reasearched the comparison I heard.

The very word "Progressive" means progress toward Socialism/Fascism/Communism

 

[Dragon]

There is only one thing wrong with the Soviet constitution: it was a sham, and the country never lived up to it.

If Roosevelt's "Second Bill of Rights" is similar to the Soviet constitution, that's a point in FDR's favor.

If it resembled what the Soviet Union actually practiced, now THAT would be serious accusation. But it didn't.

 

[bripat9643]

If Roosevelt's "Second Bill of Rights" is similar to the Soviet constitution, that's a point in FDR's favor.

No it wouldn't. The Soviet Constitution is a legal permit for totalitarianism. It's the justification for everything Stalin did.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

If Roosevelt's "Second Bill of Rights" is similar to the Soviet constitution, that's a point in FDR's favor.

No it wouldn't. The Soviet Constitution is a legal permit for totalitarianism. It's the justification for everything Stalin did.

You shouldn't have told him, I was VERY entertained by the comment you chose to quote.

If I was one of those people who likes to troll others by putting stupid comments they made in their sig line I would have used that.

 

[The T]

Is it any wonder that FDR (And Churchill) ceeded so much to the Soviets in after action carving up of Europe?

WE should have taken Patton's advice and nailed the Soviets when we had the chance.

Hindsight.

 

[Dragon]

No it wouldn't. The Soviet Constitution is a legal permit for totalitarianism. It's the justification for everything Stalin did.

On the contrary, the Soviet constitution in theory guaranteed all the basic rights that the U.S. Constitution does, including free speech, a free press, freedom of religion, the right to peacefully assemble, and all that. As well as the economic rights PP listed which our Constitution doesn't guarantee.

As I said, the problem with the Soviet constitution -- the only problem with it -- is that it was a sham that the country did not live up to. The reality on the ground in the USSR was a far cry from what the constitution supposedly guaranteed. Proof, if you like, that a constitution without an independent judiciary, separation of powers, and public accountability is only so much scrap paper.

Again: if Roosevelt's Second Bill of Rights resembled the Soviet constitution, that's a point in its favor. If it resembled what the Soviet Union actually practiced, THAT would be a serious accusation. But it didn't.

 

[The T]

Why didn't FDR get Healthcare enacted?

And why did he say Unionizing Government workers was a BAD idea?

 

[Dragon]

Why didn't FDR get Healthcare enacted?

Because he didn't have the votes in Congress, and had other things he considered more important to push for.

And why did he say Unionizing Government workers was a BAD idea?

For the same reason he was initially against ALL unions: his vision was that of a paternalistic government (embodied in himself) that took care of people, and not one of empowerment. He opposed the Wagner Act until it became clear it was going to pass anyway, then got behind it for political reasons.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

No it wouldn't. The Soviet Constitution is a legal permit for totalitarianism. It's the justification for everything Stalin did.

On the contrary, the Soviet constitution in theory guaranteed all the basic rights that the U.S. Constitution does, including free speech, a free press, freedom of religion, the right to peacefully assemble, and all that. As well as the economic rights PP listed which our Constitution doesn't guarantee.

As I said, the problem with the Soviet constitution -- the only problem with it -- is that it was a sham that the country did not live up to. The reality on the ground in the USSR was a far cry from what the constitution supposedly guaranteed. Proof, if you like, that a constitution without an independent judiciary, separation of powers, and public accountability is only so much scrap paper.

Again: if Roosevelt's Second Bill of Rights resembled the Soviet constitution, that's a point in its favor. If it resembled what the Soviet Union actually practiced, THAT would be a serious accusation. But it didn't.

Socialism turns to dictatorship 100% of the time and fails 100% of the time. Sorry you're too brainwashed to see that

 

[Dragon]

Socialism turns to dictatorship 100% of the time and fails 100% of the time.

Socialism has never turned to dictatorship. The only socialist countries that were also dictatorships started that way, they didn't "turn."

Socialism in a democratic context has never failed, either.

Sorry you're too brainwashed to see that.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

There is only one thing wrong with the Soviet constitution: it was a sham, and the country never lived up to it.

If Roosevelt's "Second Bill of Rights" is similar to the Soviet constitution, that's a point in FDR's favor.

If it resembled what the Soviet Union actually practiced, now THAT would be serious accusation. But it didn't.

Exactly.

This renders false the conservative premise that the New Deal was somehow ‘socialism’ or ‘communism.’ It also exhibits the ignorance of many on the right with regard to what is actually ‘socialism’ and ‘communism.’