FDR's Progressive Doctrine vs The Union of Soviet Socialist Republic's Constitution

Why is it okay for the right to paint FDR as some sort of crypto-fascist/communist (not my label, theirs) but Bush is to be absolved of any of the problems that faced Obama when he took office?

Why do some posters not want to understand the social policy issue surrounding health care and see it only in the way that it has been framed by its opponents, as an ideological issue?

I throw bush right in the trash barrel with FDR, both bushs in fact. They were all progressives of one shade or another....other than Reagan, and he couldn't balance his books either but at least he shrank everything but defense.

He didn't, you know. The scope of the federal government, and spending has NEVER gotten smaller, at least since the end of WWII. It's only ever gotten bigger. If you leave out defense spending, Reagan didn't shrink any other spending, he only increased it less than most Presidents have done.
 
What is that groupthink or something? Lemmings
Now that's hilarious, seeing as this whole idea came straight from Glenn Beck's show last night...

BTW you are the one who brought up communism doctor, not me. Socialist republic (such as the USSR was or what FDR wanted) VS Constitutional Republic (the government that has made our country great)

Hate to break it to you, but the USSR was a constitutional republic as well. As in, they had a constitution (hell, you even quoted it in your OP).

United Soviet Socialist Republic. Its in the name dippy.

Yes. It is. But they still had a Constitution, which makes them a Constitutional Republic as well. Hell, you even quoted their constitution in your OP.

Notice you didn't comment on your attempt to make the OP look like your original thought, even though you're just parroting Beck.
 
Why is it okay for the right to paint FDR as some sort of crypto-fascist/communist (not my label, theirs) but Bush is to be absolved of any of the problems that faced Obama when he took office?

Why do some posters not want to understand the social policy issue surrounding health care and see it only in the way that it has been framed by its opponents, as an ideological issue?

I throw bush right in the trash barrel with FDR, both bushs in fact. They were all progressives of one shade or another....other than Reagan, and he couldn't balance his books either but at least he shrank everything but defense.

He didn't, you know. The scope of the federal government, and spending has NEVER gotten smaller, at least since the end of WWII. It's only ever gotten bigger. If you leave out defense spending, Reagan didn't shrink any other spending, he only increased it less than most Presidents have done.

Do you have a link for the non-defense programs he expanded as president....I may have to throw him in the same trash barrell as all the other progressive presidents we have had since the great depression.


Now that's hilarious, seeing as this whole idea came straight from Glenn Beck's show last night...



Hate to break it to you, but the USSR was a constitutional republic as well. As in, they had a constitution (hell, you even quoted it in your OP).

United Soviet Socialist Republic. Its in the name dippy.

Yes. It is. But they still had a Constitution, which makes them a Constitutional Republic as well. Hell, you even quoted their constitution in your OP.

Notice you didn't comment on your attempt to make the OP look like your original thought, even though you're just parroting Beck.

I'm not sure if you are being serious here or not. They are a self-described socialist republic, yes they have a constitution but they considered themselves as socialst republic. If you were right they would have called themselves The United Soviet Constitutional Republic.

I didn't parrot beck, i read what I posted before I posted it. I can't help it if on this one Beck is smart but feel free to try and ignore the comparison and use Beck to try and cut down the argument instead of making a counter-argument that is valid.
 
I throw bush right in the trash barrel with FDR, both bushs in fact. They were all progressives of one shade or another....other than Reagan, and he couldn't balance his books either but at least he shrank everything but defense.

He didn't, you know. The scope of the federal government, and spending has NEVER gotten smaller, at least since the end of WWII. It's only ever gotten bigger. If you leave out defense spending, Reagan didn't shrink any other spending, he only increased it less than most Presidents have done.

Do you have a link for the non-defense programs he expanded as president....I may have to throw him in the same trash barrell as all the other progressive presidents we have had since the great depression.


United Soviet Socialist Republic. Its in the name dippy.

Yes. It is. But they still had a Constitution, which makes them a Constitutional Republic as well. Hell, you even quoted their constitution in your OP.

Notice you didn't comment on your attempt to make the OP look like your original thought, even though you're just parroting Beck.

I'm not sure if you are being serious here or not. They are a self-described socialist republic, yes they have a constitution but they considered themselves as socialst republic. If you were right they would have called themselves The United Soviet Constitutional Republic.
It's a semantics argument, and it doesn't really have any relevance.
"Constitutional Republic" and "Socialist Republic" are not mutually exclusive. "Constitutional Republic" means a Republic with a constitution, and that's all. The USSR had a constitution, therefore it was both a "Socialist Republic" and a "Constitutional Republic". Neither of those terms really mean anything.

I didn't parrot beck, i read what I posted before I posted it. I can't help it if on this one Beck is smart but feel free to try and ignore the comparison and use Beck to try and cut down the argument instead of making a counter-argument that is valid.
So, you just happened to feel the urge to read both the Constitution of the USSR and FDRs Second Bill of Rights, and notice the similarities - the day after Glenn Beck did the same thing on his TV show.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe you.
 
He didn't, you know. The scope of the federal government, and spending has NEVER gotten smaller, at least since the end of WWII. It's only ever gotten bigger. If you leave out defense spending, Reagan didn't shrink any other spending, he only increased it less than most Presidents have done.

Do you have a link for the non-defense programs he expanded as president....I may have to throw him in the same trash barrell as all the other progressive presidents we have had since the great depression.




I'm not sure if you are being serious here or not. They are a self-described socialist republic, yes they have a constitution but they considered themselves as socialst republic. If you were right they would have called themselves The United Soviet Constitutional Republic.
It's a semantics argument, and it doesn't really have any relevance.
"Constitutional Republic" and "Socialist Republic" are not mutually exclusive. "Constitutional Republic" means a Republic with a constitution, and that's all. The USSR had a constitution, therefore it was both a "Socialist Republic" and a "Constitutional Republic". Neither of those terms really mean anything.

I didn't parrot beck, i read what I posted before I posted it. I can't help it if on this one Beck is smart but feel free to try and ignore the comparison and use Beck to try and cut down the argument instead of making a counter-argument that is valid.
So, you just happened to feel the urge to read both the Constitution of the USSR and FDRs Second Bill of Rights, and notice the similarities - the day after Glenn Beck did the same thing on his TV show.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe you.

yes it is semantics.

I understand your doubt but its misplaced. The timing is a result of someone else who I discussed it with over a month ago, after reading a book called FDR's Folly, bringing it up to me the other day. Maybe they saw it on beck and mentioned it.

I found what beck did on youtube and watched it. If you notice, unlike beck, I didn't cherry pick the words and provided the whole context of each article that reminded me of the 2nd bill of rights. I even included 2 articles he skipped.
 
Do you have a link for the non-defense programs he expanded as president....I may have to throw him in the same trash barrell as all the other progressive presidents we have had since the great depression.




I'm not sure if you are being serious here or not. They are a self-described socialist republic, yes they have a constitution but they considered themselves as socialst republic. If you were right they would have called themselves The United Soviet Constitutional Republic.
It's a semantics argument, and it doesn't really have any relevance.
"Constitutional Republic" and "Socialist Republic" are not mutually exclusive. "Constitutional Republic" means a Republic with a constitution, and that's all. The USSR had a constitution, therefore it was both a "Socialist Republic" and a "Constitutional Republic". Neither of those terms really mean anything.

I didn't parrot beck, i read what I posted before I posted it. I can't help it if on this one Beck is smart but feel free to try and ignore the comparison and use Beck to try and cut down the argument instead of making a counter-argument that is valid.
So, you just happened to feel the urge to read both the Constitution of the USSR and FDRs Second Bill of Rights, and notice the similarities - the day after Glenn Beck did the same thing on his TV show.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe you.

yes it is semantics.

I understand your doubt but its misplaced. The timing is a result of someone else who I discussed it with over a month ago, after reading a book called FDR's Folly, bringing it up to me the other day. Maybe they saw it on beck and mentioned it.

I found what beck did on youtube and watched it. If you notice, unlike beck, I didn't cherry pick the words and provided the whole context of each article that reminded me of the 2nd bill of rights. I even included 2 articles he skipped.

I agree you didn't spin it quite as much as Beck did. And in terms of the timing, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
 
Why is it okay for the right to paint FDR as some sort of crypto-fascist/communist (not my label, theirs) but Bush is to be absolved of any of the problems that faced Obama when he took office?

Why do some posters not want to understand the social policy issue surrounding health care and see it only in the way that it has been framed by its opponents, as an ideological issue?

Its not framing. Its pointing out the truth about the man that shapes a lot of the modern liberal philosophy.
 
It's a semantics argument, and it doesn't really have any relevance.
"Constitutional Republic" and "Socialist Republic" are not mutually exclusive. "Constitutional Republic" means a Republic with a constitution, and that's all. The USSR had a constitution, therefore it was both a "Socialist Republic" and a "Constitutional Republic". Neither of those terms really mean anything.


So, you just happened to feel the urge to read both the Constitution of the USSR and FDRs Second Bill of Rights, and notice the similarities - the day after Glenn Beck did the same thing on his TV show.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe you.

yes it is semantics.

I understand your doubt but its misplaced. The timing is a result of someone else who I discussed it with over a month ago, after reading a book called FDR's Folly, bringing it up to me the other day. Maybe they saw it on beck and mentioned it.

I found what beck did on youtube and watched it. If you notice, unlike beck, I didn't cherry pick the words and provided the whole context of each article that reminded me of the 2nd bill of rights. I even included 2 articles he skipped.

I agree you didn't spin it quite as much as Beck did. And in terms of the timing, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Before you denounce it as "spin" tell me why we are wrong to point out the simularities between FDR and a lot of fascist/communist because I'm tired of you spinning something as false by labeling it in itself as "spin" (no pun intended).
 
yes it is semantics.

I understand your doubt but its misplaced. The timing is a result of someone else who I discussed it with over a month ago, after reading a book called FDR's Folly, bringing it up to me the other day. Maybe they saw it on beck and mentioned it.

I found what beck did on youtube and watched it. If you notice, unlike beck, I didn't cherry pick the words and provided the whole context of each article that reminded me of the 2nd bill of rights. I even included 2 articles he skipped.

I agree you didn't spin it quite as much as Beck did. And in terms of the timing, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Before you denounce it as "spin" tell me why we are wrong to point out the simularities between FDR and a lot of fascist/communist because I'm tired of you spinning something as false by labeling it in itself as "spin" (no pun intended).

First of all, I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to Pilgrim, and if you want to know what we've been talking about, feel free to read the whole thread. I'm fairly certain I've explained my views on the topic well in the thread already, and I don't really have the time nor the patience to go through it again.

And if you can't see that everything that Glenn Beck (or Keith Olbermann, or any other talking head) says is spin, you haven't really grasped what their jobs are - they spin.
 
A quick note: whatever similarities between FDR and any fascist/communist policies are minor and insignificant. The whacko right have been trying to spin this for decades and failed miseraly as some are doing here. Let's move on.
 
A quick note: whatever similarities between FDR and any fascist/communist policies are minor and insignificant. The whacko right have been trying to spin this for decades and failed miseraly as some are doing here. Let's move on.

FDR was Stalin's little butt buddy
 
I agree you didn't spin it quite as much as Beck did. And in terms of the timing, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Before you denounce it as "spin" tell me why we are wrong to point out the simularities between FDR and a lot of fascist/communist because I'm tired of you spinning something as false by labeling it in itself as "spin" (no pun intended).

First of all, I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to Pilgrim, and if you want to know what we've been talking about, feel free to read the whole thread. I'm fairly certain I've explained my views on the topic well in the thread already, and I don't really have the time nor the patience to go through it again.

And if you can't see that everything that Glenn Beck (or Keith Olbermann, or any other talking head) says is spin, you haven't really grasped what their jobs are - they spin.

I haven't found to much wrong with Glenn Beck so far because I have done some reading into fascism and realize it is a spinoff of communist idealogy and if you think that is not true then say so but don't attack the messenger because you can't find anything wrong with what they were saying.
 
A quick note: whatever similarities between FDR and any fascist/communist policies are minor and insignificant. The whacko right have been trying to spin this for decades and failed miseraly as some are doing here. Let's move on.

So you acknowledge they existed?

I would like to move on from the 20th century progressive politics but you guys keep pressing for it so when you give it up then we can but until then we will fight you every bit of the way.

No one ever said FDR was as evil as Hitler but the thinking of the progressive movement was identical to communist movement in Europe at the same time. Just look at T. Rosevelt. He said some things that were pretty communistic and his predecessor Wilson created a fascistic military dictatorship during WWI.
 
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A quick note: whatever similarities between FDR and any fascist/communist policies are minor and insignificant. The whacko right have been trying to spin this for decades and failed miseraly as some are doing here. Let's move on.

It sounds like you didn't want to take the time to read the whole thread and the discussions in it.

I was comparing his 2nd bill of rights (FDR's) to some language in the USSR's constitution. There were parallels between the 2. All that I was saying is that FDR's Idea of progressive thought was similar to the thoughts of those who wrote the USSR's constitution.

Chill dude.
 
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"The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite."* Whenever anyone invokes the Constitution and what it contains or does not contain, the battle is lost. Two hundred plus years ago, we were just beginning this great experiment, and so much has changed. Imagine if Madison's quote above, influenced Lincoln's decision or for that matter numerous decisions since. We'd be a hodgepodge like the Soviet Union became and not a unified nation with fundamental values and beliefs.


"The unity of Government, which constitutes you one people, is also now dear to you. It is justly so; for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquillity at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very Liberty, which you so highly prize. But as it is easy to foresee, that, from different causes and from different quarters, much pains will be taken, many artifices employed, to weaken in your minds the conviction of this truth; as this is the point in your political fortress against which the batteries of internal and external enemies will be most constantly and actively (though often covertly and insidiously) directed, it is of infinite moment, that you should properly estimate the immense value of your national Union to your collective and individual happiness; that you should cherish a cordial, habitual, and immovable attachment to it; accustoming yourselves to think and speak of it as of the Palladium of your political safety and prosperity; watching for its preservation with jealous anxiety; discountenancing whatever may suggest even a suspicion, that it can in any event be abandoned; and indignantly frowning upon the first dawning of every attempt to alienate any portion of our country from the rest, or to enfeeble the sacred ties which now link together the various parts."

Quote DB :: Speeches :: George Washington :: George Washington's Farewell Address Speech

"...that constitution of our nature which makes us feel more intensely what affects us directly than what affects us indirectly through others, necessarily leads to conflict between individuals. Each, in consequence, has a greater regard for his own safety or happiness, than for the safety or happiness of others; and, where these come in opposition, is ready to sacrifice the interests of others to his own. And hence, the tendency to a universal state of conflict, between individual and individual; accompanied by the connected passions of suspicion, jealousy, anger and revenge — followed by insolence, fraud and cruelty — and, if not prevented by some controlling power, ending in a state of universal discord and confusion, destructive of the social state and the ends for which it is ordained. This controlling power, wherever vested, or by whomsoever exercised, is GOVERNMENT."

Disquisition on Government John C. Calhoun

John C. Calhoun: Disquisition on Government



*James Madison

PS The more I read history, and observe our times, the greater FDR grows in my opinion.

Washingtion was speaking of a people united under a single government while the other guy was talking of people united under a single will.

and, if not prevented by some controlling power, ending in a state of universal discord and confusion, destructive of the social state and the ends for which it is ordained

He spent the entire passage ripping individual self-interest and believes that has to squashed by the government in order to create a single will. The controlling power he is mentioning is the state and its job is to end universal discord that is produced by the competing interest of individual that would be destructive to the social state.

Washington acknowledged the individual happiness of each citizen and the role of government was to protect that.

national Union to your collective and individual happiness

One believed that individuality was a detriment to society while the other believed it was a part of your happiness.
 
Before you denounce it as "spin" tell me why we are wrong to point out the simularities between FDR and a lot of fascist/communist because I'm tired of you spinning something as false by labeling it in itself as "spin" (no pun intended).

First of all, I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to Pilgrim, and if you want to know what we've been talking about, feel free to read the whole thread. I'm fairly certain I've explained my views on the topic well in the thread already, and I don't really have the time nor the patience to go through it again.

And if you can't see that everything that Glenn Beck (or Keith Olbermann, or any other talking head) says is spin, you haven't really grasped what their jobs are - they spin.

I haven't found to much wrong with Glenn Beck so far because I have done some reading into fascism and realize it is a spinoff of communist idealogy and if you think that is not true then say so but don't attack the messenger because you can't find anything wrong with what they were saying.

How did you "realize" that? What exactly did you read that gave you that impression?

Because if you'd actually read, say Marx, or Engels, you'd actually know that the ideals behind socialism and communism are very far from those of any autocratic state. On the other hand, any attempt at communism has always led to an autocratic state, because of the nature of humanity. Fascism is, by ideal, an autocratic state.

So, defend your argument.

And, for the record, I can find something wrong with nearly every single thing that Glenn Beck says.
 
Hey Doc, check out this john adams quote (sorry off topic but whatever)

We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution is designed only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for any other. -
John Adams
 
Hey Doc, check out this john adams quote (sorry off topic but whatever)

We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution is designed only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for any other. -
John Adams

I agree completely - except maybe not the religious part, people can be moral and not religious - but as we know, once you get 5 or more people into a room together, at least one is going to start trying to find a way to get power over the others. Multiply that by a few hundred million, and we've got the country we have now.
 
I found another political group's platform that is similar to FDR's 2nd bill of rigths, and the USSR's constitution.

History of the Black Panther Party

Hey PILGRIM, maybe you need to educate yourself before you 'emote' your right wing dogma?

Let's start with THIS major political group's 'platform', and ask WHY this major political party is now the antithesis of what they once stood for...

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Republican Party Platform of 1956
August 20, 1956


The Republican Party was formed 100 years ago to preserve the Nation's devotion to these ideals.

On its Centennial, the Republican Party again calls to the minds of all Americans the great truth first spoken by Abraham Lincoln: "The legitimate object of Government is to do for a community of people whatever they need to have done but cannot do at all, or cannot so well do, for themselves in their separate and individual capacities. But in all that people can individually do as well for themselves, Government ought not to interfere."

Our great President Dwight D. Eisenhower has counseled us further: "In all those things which deal with people, be liberal, be human. In all those things which deal with people's money, or their economy, or their form of government, be conservative."

Labor

Under the Republican Administration, as our country has prospered, so have its people. This is as it should be, for as President Eisenhower said: "Labor is the United States. The men and women, who with their minds, their hearts and hands, create the wealth that is shared in this country—they are America."

The Eisenhower Administration has brought to our people the highest employment, the highest wages and the highest standard of living ever enjoyed by any nation. Today there are nearly 67 million men and women at work in the United States, 4 million more than in 1952. Wages have increased substantially over the past 3 1/2 years; but, more important, the American wage earner today can buy more than ever before for himself and his family because his pay check has not been eaten away by rising taxes and soaring prices.

The record of performance of the Republican Administration on behalf of our working men and women goes still further. The Federal minimum wage has been raised for more than 2 million workers. Social Security has been extended to an additional 10 million workers and the benefits raised for 6 1/2 million. The protection of unemployment insurance has been brought to 4 million additional workers. There have been increased workmen's compensation benefits for longshoremen and harbor workers, increased retirement benefits for railroad employees, and wage increases and improved welfare and pension plans for federal employees.

In addition, the Eisenhower Administration has enforced more vigorously and effectively than ever before, the laws which protect the working standards of our people.

Workers have benefited by the progress which has been made in carrying out the programs and principles set forth in the 1952 Republican platform. All workers have gained and unions have grown in strength and responsibility, and have increased their membership by 2 millions.

Furthermore, the process of free collective bargaining has been strengthened by the insistence of this Administration that labor and management settle their differences at the bargaining table without the intervention of the Government. This policy has brought to our country an unprecedented period of labor-management peace and understanding.

We applaud the effective, unhindered, collective bargaining which brought an early end to the 1956 steel strike, in contrast to the six months' upheaval, Presidential seizure of the steel industry and ultimate Supreme Court intervention under the last Democrat Administration.

The Eisenhower Administration will continue to fight for dynamic and progressive programs which, among other things, will:

Stimulate improved job safety of our workers, through assistance to the States, employees and employers;

Continue and further perfect its programs of assistance to the millions of workers with special employment problems, such as older workers, handicapped workers, members of minority groups, and migratory workers;

Strengthen and improve the Federal-State Employment Service and improve the effectiveness of the unemployment insurance system;

Protect by law, the assets of employee welfare and benefit plans so that workers who are the beneficiaries can be assured of their rightful benefits;

Assure equal pay for equal work regardless of Sex;

Clarify and strengthen the eight-hour laws for the benefit of workers who are subject to federal wage standards on Federal and Federally-assisted construction, and maintain and continue the vigorous administration of the Federal prevailing minimum wage law for public supply contracts;

Extend the protection of the Federal minimum wage laws to as many more workers as is possible and practicable;

Continue to fight for the elimination of discrimination in employment because of race, creed, color, national origin, ancestry or sex;

Provide assistance to improve the economic conditions of areas faced with persistent and substantial unemployment;

Revise and improve the Taft-Hartley Act so as to protect more effectively the rights of labor unions, management, the individual worker, and the public. The protection of the right of workers to organize into unions and to bargain collectively is the firm and permanent policy of the Eisenhower Administration. In 1954, 1955 and again in 1956, President Eisenhower recommended constructive amendments to this Act. The Democrats in Congress have consistently blocked these needed changes by parliamentary maneuvers. The Republican Party pledges itself to overhaul and improve the Taft-Hartley Act along the lines of these recommendations.

Human Welfare and Advancement

Health, Education and Welfare

The Republican Party believes that the physical, mental, and spiritual well-being of the people is as important as their economic health. It will continue to support this conviction with vigorous action.

Republican action created the Department of Health, Education and Welfare as the first new Federal department in 40 years, to raise the continuing consideration of these problems for the first time to the highest council of Government, the President's Cabinet.

Through the White House Conference on Education, our Republican Administration initiated the most comprehensive Community-State-Federal attempt ever made to solve the pressing problems of primary and secondary education.

Four thousand communities, studying their school populations and their physical and financial resources, encouraged our Republican Administration to urge a five-year program of Federal assistance in building schools to relieve a critical classroom shortage.

The Republican Party will renew its efforts to enact a program based on sound principles of need and designed to encourage increased state and local efforts to build more classrooms.

Our Administration also proposed for the first time in history, a thorough nation-wide analysis of rapidly growing problems in education beyond the high schools.

The Republican Party is determined to press all such actions that will help insure that every child has the educational opportunity to advance to his own greatest capacity.

We have fully resolved to continue our steady gains in man's unending struggle against disease and disability.

We have supported the distribution of free vaccine to protect millions of children against dreaded polio.

Republican leadership has enlarged Federal assistance for construction of hospitals, emphasizing low-cost care of chronic diseases and the special problems of older persons, and increased Federal aid for medical care of the needy.

We have asked the largest increase in research funds ever sought in one year to intensify attacks on cancer, mental illness, heart disease and other dread diseases.

We demand once again, despite the reluctance of the Democrat 84th Congress, Federal assistance to help build facilities to train more physicians and scientists.

We have encouraged a notable expansion and improvement of voluntary health insurance, and urge that reinsurance and pooling arrangements be authorized to speed this progress.

We have strengthened the Food and Drug Administration, and we have increased the vocational rehabilitation program to enable a larger number of the disabled to return to satisfying activity.

We have supported measures that have made more housing available than ever before in history, reduced urban slums in local-federal partnership, stimulated record home ownership, and authorized additional low-rent public housing.

We initiated the first flood insurance program in history under Government sponsorship in cooperation with private enterprise.

We shall continue to seek extension and perfection of a sound social security system.

We pledge close cooperation with State, local and private agencies to reduce the ghastly toll of fatalities on the Nation's highways.

Republican Party Platforms: Republican Party Platform of 1956
 

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