FDR's Progressive Doctrine vs The Union of Soviet Socialist Republic's Constitution

"The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite."* Whenever anyone invokes the Constitution and what it contains or does not contain, the battle is lost. Two hundred plus years ago, we were just beginning this great experiment, and so much has changed. Imagine if Madison's quote above, influenced Lincoln's decision or for that matter numerous decisions since. We'd be a hodgepodge like the Soviet Union became and not a unified nation with fundamental values and beliefs.


"The unity of Government, which constitutes you one people, is also now dear to you. It is justly so; for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquillity at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very Liberty, which you so highly prize. But as it is easy to foresee, that, from different causes and from different quarters, much pains will be taken, many artifices employed, to weaken in your minds the conviction of this truth; as this is the point in your political fortress against which the batteries of internal and external enemies will be most constantly and actively (though often covertly and insidiously) directed, it is of infinite moment, that you should properly estimate the immense value of your national Union to your collective and individual happiness; that you should cherish a cordial, habitual, and immovable attachment to it; accustoming yourselves to think and speak of it as of the Palladium of your political safety and prosperity; watching for its preservation with jealous anxiety; discountenancing whatever may suggest even a suspicion, that it can in any event be abandoned; and indignantly frowning upon the first dawning of every attempt to alienate any portion of our country from the rest, or to enfeeble the sacred ties which now link together the various parts."

Quote DB :: Speeches :: George Washington :: George Washington's Farewell Address Speech

"...that constitution of our nature which makes us feel more intensely what affects us directly than what affects us indirectly through others, necessarily leads to conflict between individuals. Each, in consequence, has a greater regard for his own safety or happiness, than for the safety or happiness of others; and, where these come in opposition, is ready to sacrifice the interests of others to his own. And hence, the tendency to a universal state of conflict, between individual and individual; accompanied by the connected passions of suspicion, jealousy, anger and revenge — followed by insolence, fraud and cruelty — and, if not prevented by some controlling power, ending in a state of universal discord and confusion, destructive of the social state and the ends for which it is ordained. This controlling power, wherever vested, or by whomsoever exercised, is GOVERNMENT."

Disquisition on Government John C. Calhoun

John C. Calhoun: Disquisition on Government



*James Madison

PS The more I read history, and observe our times, the greater FDR grows in my opinion.
 
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The point is this, plymco: We the People elect the government to do what We the People want.

And We the People have made it very clear that We do not want the wingnut right of the GOP reactionary right telling us We the People what to do.

Go define "socialism" and "marxism" and "progressivism" objectively so that this discussion can continue on a logical basis, please.

Indeed I think its pretty clear we dont want the fringe right in charge, we booted them out and we dont want the fringe left's policies either as evidenced by the huge rally cry against socialized medicine and other obama socialist style programs.

I'm not going to go google the defenitions for you and post them up, its pretty easy to type them in and read about it.

Same old red herring anti-anti-socialist arguments :lol:

WHEN did Obama or any Democrat propose socialized medicine? The insurance corporations spend 1.4 million dollars per day in Washington fighting tooth and nail to preserve their corporate welfare/socialism...you 'Beck' pea brains support the f_cking executioners in this country...and I have NEWS for you pea brain...you ARE far right...
 
I would like an explanation of how a philosophy of negative liberty where government essentially does nothing and is incapable of making people do things is capapable of telling 'Us We the People what to do'?

Like all you want, ihef, but until you figure out the contradiction in what you wrote above, you will want without fulfillment forever. (Notice the very clever double alliteration in the last sentence.)

You can not name an example of a time when government inaction was telling you what do to or controlling you or anyone because it doesn't exist.

How about the governments failure to do the needed oversight of the lending industry which resulted in people being told to leave their homes?
 
The point is this, plymco: We the People elect the government to do what We the People want.

And We the People have made it very clear that We do not want the wingnut right of the GOP reactionary right telling us We the People what to do.

Go define "socialism" and "marxism" and "progressivism" objectively so that this discussion can continue on a logical basis, please.

Indeed I think its pretty clear we dont want the fringe right in charge, we booted them out and we dont want the fringe left's policies either as evidenced by the huge rally cry against socialized medicine and other obama socialist style programs.

I'm not going to go google the defenitions for you and post them up, its pretty easy to type them in and read about it.

Same old red herring anti-anti-socialist arguments :lol:

WHEN did Obama or any Democrat propose socialized medicine? The insurance corporations spend 1.4 million dollars per day in Washington fighting tooth and nail to preserve their corporate welfare/socialism...you 'Beck' pea brains support the f_cking executioners in this country...and I have NEWS for you pea brain...you ARE far right...

I guess you never heard those pushing health care reform are doing so to destroy private insurance and bring about socialized medicine under the heading "Public Option"

Here ya go...not that you have any brains if you think i'm rar right but still, maybe you'll "get it"

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndStT6c93rc]YouTube - Proof Positive the Public Option Will Lead to Single Payer[/ame]


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3BS4C9el98]YouTube - Single Payer Action Confronts Barney Frank[/ame]



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-bY92mcOdk]YouTube - SHOCK UNCOVERED: Obama IN HIS OWN WORDS saying His Health Care Plan will ELIMINATE private insurance[/ame]
 
Indeed I think its pretty clear we dont want the fringe right in charge, we booted them out and we dont want the fringe left's policies either as evidenced by the huge rally cry against socialized medicine and other obama socialist style programs.

I'm not going to go google the defenitions for you and post them up, its pretty easy to type them in and read about it.

Same old red herring anti-anti-socialist arguments :lol:

WHEN did Obama or any Democrat propose socialized medicine? The insurance corporations spend 1.4 million dollars per day in Washington fighting tooth and nail to preserve their corporate welfare/socialism...you 'Beck' pea brains support the f_cking executioners in this country...and I have NEWS for you pea brain...you ARE far right...

I guess you never heard those pushing health care reform are doing so to destroy private insurance and bring about socialized medicine under the heading "Public Option"

Here ya go...not that you have any brains if you think i'm rar right but still, maybe you'll "get it"

I KNOW you don't 'get it'... IF a public option proved to be beneficial and worked well over time, then shouldn't the market decide? What we have now is and forever will be the antithesis of health CARE...it is profit driven denial of an essential RIGHT. Instead of having your tiny little pea indoctrinated by the Beck Clown, and posting hacked up You Tube clips specifically edited to promote for profit Clown propaganda, why don't you LISTEN to someone that KNOWS about the corporate scam we are forced to die with?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QwX_soZ1GI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QwX_soZ1GI[/ame]

Bill Moyers Journal . Wendell Potter on Profits Before Patients | PBS
 
No American should be forced to buy a product, such as health insurance, ever. Its a choice, its my right to choose, you can not take that right and power away from me in a constitutional manner.

This bill, in its current form, forces you to buy a product from a private company at the time of birth.


BTW i've seen that Bill Moyers propoganda piece before, very similar to michael moore's sicko.
 
No American should be forced to buy a product, such as health insurance, ever. Its a choice, its my right to choose, you can not take that right and power away from me in a constitutional manner.

This bill, in its current form, forces you to buy a product from a private company at the time of birth.


BTW i've seen that Bill Moyers propoganda piece before, very similar to michael moore's sicko.

You are full of shit...there is NO WAY you have watched Bill Moyer's interview with Wendell Potter...because if you DID, you would realize that your Michael Moore comment makes you look like a obtuse dunce!

Did you hear Wendel Potter's congressional testimony, or is that Moyer propaganda too?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBFKkXDSKWw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBFKkXDSKWw[/ame]
 
No American should be forced to buy a product, such as health insurance, ever. Its a choice, its my right to choose, you can not take that right and power away from me in a constitutional manner.

This bill, in its current form, forces you to buy a product from a private company at the time of birth.


BTW i've seen that Bill Moyers propoganda piece before, very similar to michael moore's sicko.

You are full of shit...there is NO WAY you have watched Bill Moyer's interview with Wendell Potter...because if you DID, you would realize that your Michael Moore comment makes you look like a obtuse dunce!

Did you hear Wendel Potter's congressional testimony, or is that Moyer propaganda too?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBFKkXDSKWw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBFKkXDSKWw[/ame]

The people's who's political philosophy is closely aligned with "the might of the government is right" should not be counted on to say anything other than the might of government is right.
 
"The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite."* Whenever anyone invokes the Constitution and what it contains or does not contain, the battle is lost. Two hundred plus years ago, we were just beginning this great experiment, and so much has changed. Imagine if Madison's quote above, influenced Lincoln's decision or for that matter numerous decisions since. We'd be a hodgepodge like the Soviet Union became and not a unified nation with fundamental values and beliefs.


"The unity of Government, which constitutes you one people, is also now dear to you. It is justly so; for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquillity at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very Liberty, which you so highly prize. But as it is easy to foresee, that, from different causes and from different quarters, much pains will be taken, many artifices employed, to weaken in your minds the conviction of this truth; as this is the point in your political fortress against which the batteries of internal and external enemies will be most constantly and actively (though often covertly and insidiously) directed, it is of infinite moment, that you should properly estimate the immense value of your national Union to your collective and individual happiness; that you should cherish a cordial, habitual, and immovable attachment to it; accustoming yourselves to think and speak of it as of the Palladium of your political safety and prosperity; watching for its preservation with jealous anxiety; discountenancing whatever may suggest even a suspicion, that it can in any event be abandoned; and indignantly frowning upon the first dawning of every attempt to alienate any portion of our country from the rest, or to enfeeble the sacred ties which now link together the various parts."

Quote DB :: Speeches :: George Washington :: George Washington's Farewell Address Speech

"...that constitution of our nature which makes us feel more intensely what affects us directly than what affects us indirectly through others, necessarily leads to conflict between individuals. Each, in consequence, has a greater regard for his own safety or happiness, than for the safety or happiness of others; and, where these come in opposition, is ready to sacrifice the interests of others to his own. And hence, the tendency to a universal state of conflict, between individual and individual; accompanied by the connected passions of suspicion, jealousy, anger and revenge — followed by insolence, fraud and cruelty — and, if not prevented by some controlling power, ending in a state of universal discord and confusion, destructive of the social state and the ends for which it is ordained. This controlling power, wherever vested, or by whomsoever exercised, is GOVERNMENT."

Disquisition on Government John C. Calhoun

John C. Calhoun: Disquisition on Government



*James Madison

PS The more I read history, and observe our times, the greater FDR grows in my opinion.

You guys make any argument to justify the destruction of individual which is why you quoted Calhoun's idea that a society of individuals would be chaotic and destructive since all interest would oppose each other. This could be true but the purpose of government is not to unify our chaotic individual interest into a single will (which is totalitarianism) but to ensure the competing interest of every individual does not interfere with the right every other individual to pursue their own interest such as my interest to piss on your lawn might interfere with your interest to keep it nice and green. Government can stop me from doing that but I do not have the right to tell you how green you are to keep your lawn.
 
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No American should be forced to buy a product, such as health insurance, ever. Its a choice, its my right to choose, you can not take that right and power away from me in a constitutional manner.

This bill, in its current form, forces you to buy a product from a private company at the time of birth.


BTW i've seen that Bill Moyers propoganda piece before, very similar to michael moore's sicko.

You are full of shit...there is NO WAY you have watched Bill Moyer's interview with Wendell Potter...because if you DID, you would realize that your Michael Moore comment makes you look like a obtuse dunce!

Did you hear Wendel Potter's congressional testimony, or is that Moyer propaganda too?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBFKkXDSKWw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBFKkXDSKWw[/ame]

The people's who's political philosophy is closely aligned with "the might of the government is right" should not be counted on to say anything other than the might of government is right.

Yes, you right wing pea brain statists should STFU
 
You are full of shit...there is NO WAY you have watched Bill Moyer's interview with Wendell Potter...because if you DID, you would realize that your Michael Moore comment makes you look like a obtuse dunce!

Did you hear Wendel Potter's congressional testimony, or is that Moyer propaganda too?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBFKkXDSKWw

The people's who's political philosophy is closely aligned with "the might of the government is right" should not be counted on to say anything other than the might of government is right.

Yes, you right wing pea brain statists should STFU

STFU...to lazy to type out Shut the Fuck Up?

Tell me you don't text all day during school...
 
The people's who's political philosophy is closely aligned with "the might of the government is right" should not be counted on to say anything other than the might of government is right.

Yes, you right wing pea brain statists should STFU

STFU...to lazy to type out Shut the Fuck Up?

Tell me you don't text all day during school...

Irony...AGAIN...

http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/97908-i-expect-obama-to-stfu.html#post1808420
 
No American should be forced to buy a product, such as health insurance, ever. Its a choice, its my right to choose, you can not take that right and power away from me in a constitutional manner.

This bill, in its current form, forces you to buy a product from a private company at the time of birth.


BTW i've seen that Bill Moyers propoganda piece before, very similar to michael moore's sicko.

You are full of shit...there is NO WAY you have watched Bill Moyer's interview with Wendell Potter...because if you DID, you would realize that your Michael Moore comment makes you look like a obtuse dunce!

Did you hear Wendel Potter's congressional testimony, or is that Moyer propaganda too?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBFKkXDSKWw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBFKkXDSKWw[/ame]

They both contain misrepresentations, exagerations, and innacuracies in order to try and make their points...that is the similarity between Moore's Sicko and Moyers piece.

You do realize that Potter has a vested interest in insurance reform due to his new career as CMD's Senior Fellow on Health Care, right?




Follow the money:

I'm not saying there aren't problems with our insurance companies...as i have said across several threads we need to pass laws stopping denials for pre existing conditions, make it so we can shop across state lines to increase competition (obama even has made a similar suggestion), do tort reform to bring down some costs. Dont get me wrong i'm not against reforming insurance. I have many more ideas/suggestions that are evident in my threads.

I also feel we should do EACH reform one at a time and debate them based on their merits. The current reform bill wont even kick in until 2013 so why do we have to rush through it? Lets take our time and get our HEALTH CARE right....its our lives and 1/6th of our economy, no need to rush it through.

But when the proposed legislation is over 2000 pages long (over 100 times larger than our constitution) and takes away my personal rights and liberties I am going to fight it. There should be NO LAW stating that in order to be a US citizen I must purchase health insurance. The way the current version of the bill is written I will either pay a hefty fine, receive jailtime, or both if I do not purchase health insurance from a PRIVATE COMPANY. I no longer have a choice and not only is that wrong, its unconstitutional.
 
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No American should be forced to buy a product, such as health insurance, ever. Its a choice, its my right to choose, you can not take that right and power away from me in a constitutional manner.

This bill, in its current form, forces you to buy a product from a private company at the time of birth.


BTW i've seen that Bill Moyers propoganda piece before, very similar to michael moore's sicko.

You are full of shit...there is NO WAY you have watched Bill Moyer's interview with Wendell Potter...because if you DID, you would realize that your Michael Moore comment makes you look like a obtuse dunce!

Did you hear Wendel Potter's congressional testimony, or is that Moyer propaganda too?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBFKkXDSKWw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBFKkXDSKWw[/ame]

They both contain misrepresentations, exagerations, and innacuracies in order to try and make their points...that is the similarity between Moore's Sicko and Moyers piece.

You do realize that Potter has a vested interest in insurance reform due to his new career as CMD's Senior Fellow on Health Care, right?

Follow the money.

I'm not saying there aren't problems with our insurance companies...as i have said across several threads we need to pass laws stopping denials for pre existing conditions, make it so we can shop across state lines to increase competition (obama even has made a similar suggestion), do tort reform to bring down some costs. Dont get me wrong i'm not against reforming insurance. I have many more ideas/suggestions that are evident in my threads.

I also feel we should do EACH reform one at a time and debate them based on their merits. The current reform bill wont even kick in until 2013 so why do we have to rush through it? Lets take our time and get our HEALTH CARE right....its our lives and 1/6th of our economy, no need to rush it through.

But when the proposed legislation is over 2000 pages long (over 100 times larger than our constitution) and takes away my personal rights and liberties I am going to fight it. There should be NO LAW stating that in order to be a US citizen I must purchase health insurance. The way the current version of the bill is written I will either pay a hefty fine, receive jailtime, or both if I do not purchase health insurance from a PRIVATE COMPANY. I no longer have a choice and not only is that wrong, its unconstitutional.

Follow the money???

Wendell Potter could have made a LOT more money staying at CIGNA

The Health Care Industry vs. Health Reform

Submitted by Wendell Potter on June 24, 2009

Wendell_Potter.jpg


Excerpt:
I thought I could live with being a well-paid huckster and hang in there a few more years until I could retire. I probably would have if I hadn't made a completely spur-of-the-moment decision a couple of years ago that changed the direction of my life. While visiting my folks in northeast Tennessee where I grew up, I read in the local paper about a health "expedition" being held that weekend a few miles up U.S. 23 in Wise, Va. Doctors, nurses and other medical professionals were volunteering their time to provide free medical care to people who lived in the area. What intrigued me most was that Remote Area Medical, a non-profit group whose original mission was to provide free care to people in remote villages in South America, was organizing the expedition. I decided to check it out.

That 50-mile stretch of U.S. 23, which twists through the mountains where thousands of men have made their living working in the coalmines, turned out to be my "road to Damascus."

Nothing could have prepared me for what I saw when I reached the Wise County Fairgrounds, where the expedition was being held. Hundreds of people had camped out all night in the parking lot to be assured of seeing a doctor or dentist when the gates opened. By the time I got there, long lines of people stretched from every animal stall and tent where the volunteers were treating patients.

That scene was so visually and emotionally stunning it was all I could do to hold back tears. How could it be that citizens of the richest nation in the world were being treated this way?

A couple of weeks later I was boarding a corporate jet to fly from Philadelphia to a meeting in Connecticut. When the flight attendant served my lunch on gold-rimmed china and gave me a gold-plated knife and fork to eat it with, I realized for the first time that someone's insurance premiums were paying for me to travel in such luxury. I also realized that one of the reasons those people in Wise County had to wait in long lines to be treated in animal stalls was because our Wall Street-driven health care system has created one of the most inequitable health care systems on the planet.

Although I quit my job last year, I did not make a final decision to speak out as a former insider until recently when it became clear to me that the insurance industry and its allies (often including drug and medical device makers, business groups and even the American Medical Association) were succeeding in shaping the current debate on health care reform. While the thought of speaking out had crossed my mind during the months leading up to the day I gave notice, I initially decided instead to hang out my shingle as a consultant to small businesses and nonprofit organizations.

I decided to take the shingle down, though, at least for a while, when I heard members of Congress reciting talking points like the ones I used to write to scare people away from real reform. I'll have more to say about that over the coming weeks and months, but, for now, remember this: whenever you hear a politician or pundit use the term "government-run health care" and warn that the creation of a public health insurance option that would compete with private insurers (or heaven forbid, a single-payer system like the one Canada has) will "lead us down the path to socialism," know that the original source of the sound bite most likely was some flack like I used to be.

Bottom line: I ultimately decided the stakes are too high for me to just sit on the sidelines and let the special interests win again. So I have joined forces with thousands of other Americans who are trying to persuade our lawmakers to listen to us for a change, not just to the insurance and drug company executives who are spending millions to shape reform to benefit them and the Wall Street hedge fund managers they are beholden to.

Take it from me, a former insider, who knows what really motivates those folks. You need to know where the hard-earned money you pay in health insurance premiums -- if you lucky enough to have coverage at all -- really goes.

I decided to speak out knowing that some people will not like what I have to say and will do all they can to discredit me. In anticipation of that, here are some facts:

* I am not doing this because my former employer was pushing me out the door or because I had become a disgruntled employee. I had not been passed over for a promotion or anything like that. As I noted earlier, I had a financially rewarding career in the industry, and I'm very grateful for that. I had numerous promotions, raises, bonuses, stock options and stock grants over the years. When I left my last job, I was as close on the corporate ladder to the CEO as any PR person has ever climbed at the company. I reported to the general counsel, the company's top lawyer, whose boss is the chairman and CEO, a man I like and worked closely with over many years.

* The decision to leave was entirely my own, and I left on good terms with everybody at the company. In fact, I agreed to postpone my last day at work by more than two months at the company's request. My coworkers gave me a terrific going-away party, and I received dozens of kind notes from people all across the country including friends at other companies and at America's Health Insurance Plans, the industry trade association.

I still consider all of them my friends. In fact, the thing I have missed most since I left is working as part of a team, even though I eventually came to the conclusion that I was playing for the wrong side. Being a consultant has its advantages, but I have missed the camaraderie. After a few months, I thought that maybe I should consider working for another company again. At one point, a former boss told me that another insurer had posted a PR job and encouraged me to contact a former CIGNA executive who worked there about it. Against my better judgment, I did, but I immediately decided not to pursue it. The last thing I wanted to do was to go from one big insurer to another one. What the hell was I thinking?

I'm writing this because, knowing how things work, I'm fully expecting insurers' PR firms to quietly feed friends of the industry (which include a roster of editorial writers and pundits, lawmakers and many others who fall under the broad category of "third-party advocates,") with anything they can think of to discredit me and what I say. This will go on behind the scenes because the insurers will want to preserve the image they are working so hard to cultivate -- as a group of kind and caring folks who think only of you and your health and are working hard as real partners to Congress and the White House to find "a uniquely American solution" to what ails our system.

I expect this because I have worked closely with the industry's PR firms over many years whenever the insurers were being threatened with bad publicity, litigation or legislation that might hinder profits.

One of the reasons I chose to become affiliated with the Center for Media and Democracy is because of the important work the organization does to expose often devious, dishonest and unethical PR practices that further the self interests of big corporations and special interest groups at the expense of the American people and the democratic principles this country was founded on.

After a long career in PR, I am looking forward to providing an insider's perspective as a senior fellow at CMD, and I am very grateful for the opportunity to speak out for the rights and dignity of ordinary people. The people of Wise County and every county deserve much better than to be left behind to suffer or die ahead of their time due to Wall Street's efforts to keep our government from ensuring that all Americans have real access to first-class health care.
 
Rather than looking at the two back to back, and letting the abject fear of the word "USSR" and "Communism" make your argument, Why don't you tell me what you disagree with in FDR's Progressive Doctrine, and why?

I guess if you do not disagree with communism then you would not be concerned with the words USSR and communism but what if FDR decided to put people in concentration camps (which he did) and we compared it to Hitler's program. Would you ask for an explanation why it is wrong?

Perhaps that does not scare you so try this:

"National Socialism us what Marxism could have been if it had freed itself from its absurd, artificial connection with the democratic system"

Adolf Hitler

He was saying that National Socialism was the fullfillment of marxism and that the social democrats belief in democratic means to achieve the socialist utopia was artificial which suggest the reality of socialism itself. The fact that the soviet union achieved a society of compete control just like in fascist countries suggest that the ends of all socialist thinking is the same.

That's a good point because it illustrates the confusion that sometimes occurs when these topics get an airing. The Nazis were indeed socialists and that shows you how socialism can be interpreted and applied in very many different ways. I don't know much about German history in that pre-WWII period, I suspect what I think I know is wrong anyway. But I do know that when the state and capitalists hop into bed together you get fascism. The Soviet Union has an interesting history. The rise to power of Stalin and then his influence on the USSR is interesting. I don't know if he began the degeneration into state capitalism but it certainly seems to have begun with him.

Hitler's quoted comment about Marxism and democracy is also interesting. As far as I know Marx wasn't all that fussed about democracy (the 19th Century liberal democracy in Britain at least) and was more focused on the development of socialism from capitalism and then the forward movement to true communism and the accompanying abandonment of the state, which would have made the concept "democracy" meaningless anyway.
 
What is that groupthink or something? Lemmings



BTW you are the one who brought up communism doctor, not me. Socialist republic (such as the USSR was or what FDR wanted) VS Constitutional Republic (the government that has made our country great)

:lol:

Come on PP - you're blathering. The US took from 1781 to 1961 to send a human into space. The Soviet Union took from 1922 to 1961 to do it.

Standing by for sputtering outrage from the usuals :eek::lol:

IF you like socialism or communism so much why don't you just leave the USA and live in one of those socialist utopia countries in europe, i mean its so much better it would be worth moving and everything right?

Go ahead and leave us here with our constitutional republic and enjoy the rich socialist government provided lifestyles.

I've never heard anyone use that before. Can I keep it? :lol:
 
You are full of shit...there is NO WAY you have watched Bill Moyer's interview with Wendell Potter...because if you DID, you would realize that your Michael Moore comment makes you look like a obtuse dunce!

Did you hear Wendel Potter's congressional testimony, or is that Moyer propaganda too?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBFKkXDSKWw

They both contain misrepresentations, exagerations, and innacuracies in order to try and make their points...that is the similarity between Moore's Sicko and Moyers piece.

You do realize that Potter has a vested interest in insurance reform due to his new career as CMD's Senior Fellow on Health Care, right?




Follow the money.

I'm not saying there aren't problems with our insurance companies...as i have said across several threads we need to pass laws stopping denials for pre existing conditions, make it so we can shop across state lines to increase competition (obama even has made a similar suggestion), do tort reform to bring down some costs. Dont get me wrong i'm not against reforming insurance. I have many more ideas/suggestions that are evident in my threads.

I also feel we should do EACH reform one at a time and debate them based on their merits. The current reform bill wont even kick in until 2013 so why do we have to rush through it? Lets take our time and get our HEALTH CARE right....its our lives and 1/6th of our economy, no need to rush it through.

But when the proposed legislation is over 2000 pages long (over 100 times larger than our constitution) and takes away my personal rights and liberties I am going to fight it. There should be NO LAW stating that in order to be a US citizen I must purchase health insurance. The way the current version of the bill is written I will either pay a hefty fine, receive jailtime, or both if I do not purchase health insurance from a PRIVATE COMPANY. I no longer have a choice and not only is that wrong, its unconstitutional.

Follow the money???

Yes follow the money in relation to the health care reform...i was done talking about him after I said he has a vested interest, my bad for the formatting.

How about the other stuff I said....do you take issue with my last 2 paragraphs?
 
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Why is it okay for the right to paint FDR as some sort of crypto-fascist/communist (not my label, theirs) but Bush is to be absolved of any of the problems that faced Obama when he took office?

Why do some posters not want to understand the social policy issue surrounding health care and see it only in the way that it has been framed by its opponents, as an ideological issue?
 
Why is it okay for the right to paint FDR as some sort of crypto-fascist/communist (not my label, theirs) but Bush is to be absolved of any of the problems that faced Obama when he took office?

Why do some posters not want to understand the social policy issue surrounding health care and see it only in the way that it has been framed by its opponents, as an ideological issue?

I throw bush right in the trash barrel with FDR, both bushs in fact. They were all progressives of one shade or another....other than Reagan, and he couldn't balance his books either but at least he shrank everything but defense.
 
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