Fast & Furious isn't going away

[geauxtohell]

) Okay, according to you, the ATF was using FAF to try to stop illegal gun trafficking by identifying straw buyers and who they were selling the weapons to. Yet you admit that the ATF has no jurisdiction to investigate and prosecute Mexican citizens. Obviously, no one inside Mexico was ever going to get arrested as part of FAF. Please explain at last how allowing guns to disappear into Mexico, knowing full well they were destined for the drug cartels and would be used to commit crimes, was supposed to help the ATF stop illegal gun trafficking. Be specific because so far your explanation makes absolutely no sense.

To try and identify the people on this side of the border that were procuring and then selling weapons to the cartels.

The people that could be prosecuted. Perhaps the ATF felt like there were some big fish in the illegal weapons industry on this side of the border that they could net.

It sounds like they didn't understand how the process works and that little fish were basically doing all the buying and running.

I highly doubt they intended for the weapons to get over to Mexico, but being a poorly planned operation, they quickly lost control of the situation.



I always find that it's better to use proper grammar if you are going to insult people's intellectual ability.

If you are implying the arrests and charges against the straw buyers and the one middle man who is still behind bars, which occurred a month after a border agent was killed, was a white wash, I think that is absurd. Should he have waited three months? What amount of time would have been appropriate for you to think this wasn't an attempt at deflecting away from the border agent's death?

3) You say "Show me what law has been broken." Are you serious dude? Surely you understand that transporting weapons into Mexico is highly illegal, just like transporting drugs into America is highly illegal. So, if I understand you correctly, a Mexican law enforcement official who facilitates drug trafficking into the United States is corrupt, but members of the DOJ who facilitate gun running into Mexico aren't? If that were the case there would be no need for a cover up.

Sting operations are legal when conducted by law enforcement officials to facilitate law enforcement efforts.

Sting Operation Law & Legal Definition

Obviously, if a cop, Mexican or otherwise is committing illegal acts to enrich themselves that is a completely different situation. That wasn't the case here.

I don't know how you can doubt that the DOJ intended these guns to end up in Mexico, when the ATF agents testified before the House Oversight Committee that their supervisors were ordering agents on the ground to let that happen. The ATF agents also said that their supervisors were elated whenever FAF guns turned up at Mexican crime scenes.

In fact, you have no reasonable law enforcement explanation for why the ATF was allowing weapons to flow into the hands of the drug cartels in Mexico. Your only defense is to keep portraying it as a bungled operation.

Several times you've dismissed as implausible the idea Obama could be funnelling guns to Mexico as part of some assault on the second amendment. In a previous post I proffered a reasonable scenario, but you never responded. Again ,the endgame for Holder and Obama would by something like the following hypothetical press conference:

“My fellow Americans, today, in conjunction with my good colleagues in the house and senate, I am proposing legislation to fundamentally overhaul our nation’s gun regulation laws. Over the past year we have seen an alarming upsurge in violent crime across the border by ruthless drug cartels who threaten to undermine the security of Mexico. Unfortunately, the recent crime wave has its origins here in this country. Thousands of weapons recovered at Mexican crime scenes have been discovered to have been illegally purchased in the United States and trafficked across the border. This illegal flow of guns is straining our relations with the Mexican government, and is unnecessarily leading to the deaths of innocent civilians. The problem has reached crisis proportions, and requires decisive action.

Accordingly, I am calling upon congress to swiftly pass legislation that will require all gun owners to register their weapons with the BATF and to notify the agency when they have a change of address. It’s the only way we can keep track of these weapons and insure they are not falling into the wrong hands. Additionally, I am proposing restrictions on the number of firearms a household may be permitted to own to a limit of 2 handguns and 2 rifles. The recent violence we have seen bears witness to the need for greater exercise of federal control over gun ownership as a way of avoiding pointless and preventable deaths.”

Of course, we now know the 'crisis' has been totally manufactured by the administration by flooding Mexico with weapons. The only reasonable explanation appears to be at some point trying to justify implementing tighter gun control.

Agent: I was ordered to let U.S. guns into Mexico - CBS News

Frankly, that just seems paranoid. So let me get this straight, the administration forced the ATF to dump 2000 weapons into Mexico so they could drum up support for legislation that would most likely be deemed unconstitutional anyways? I mean, what did they intend to do with all the ATF agents who knew about it? None of it adds up, and even as conjecture, it's a reach that the government would go to such extreme and goofy lengths to try and grab your guns (or hassle you) or whatever.

Even if it were the case, where was the push from the administration to try and accomplish what you believe their goals are?

It's certainly not going to happen now.

So, yeah, I am left to think this was a massively bungled operation. I don't need to see a conspiracy when ineptitude is a better explanation.

 

[geauxtohell]

how? How could illegal weapons in mexico ever be a case for "stricter gun control" in the united states?

It's just silly.

remember this?





Also this



oh and clinton let's not forget about clinton






oh and homeland security

last week, the department of homeland security announced it would send dogs, x-ray machines and 100 more agents to the border to search southbound cars and trains for guns and cash headed to mexico.

read more: mired in violence, gun-strict mexico points to u.s.

holder said that putting the ban back in place would not only be a positive move by the united states, it would help cut down on the flow of guns going across the border into mexico, which is struggling with heavy violence among drug cartels along the border.

obama to seek new assault weapons ban - abc news

do not even suggest that these four did not have any knowledge about the governments involment with gunrunner.

chirp chirp chirp

I humbly apologize for not sitting around the computer on labor day to answer your posts.

Some of us have things to do.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

How? How could illegal weapons in Mexico ever be a case for "stricter gun control" in the United States?

It's just silly.

Remember this?





Also this



oh and Clinton let's not forget about clinton






OH and homeland security

Last week, the Department of Homeland Security announced it would send dogs, X-ray machines and 100 more agents to the border to search southbound cars and trains for guns and cash headed to Mexico.

Read more: Mired in violence, gun-strict Mexico points to U.S.

Holder said that putting the ban back in place would not only be a positive move by the United States, it would help cut down on the flow of guns going across the border into Mexico, which is struggling with heavy violence among drug cartels along the border.

Obama to Seek New Assault Weapons Ban - ABC News

Do not even suggest that these four did not have any knowledge about the governments involment with gunrunner.

With the exception of the Clinton quote, all of that seems directed at trying to do our part to stop the flow of firearms from the United States to Mexico, which is what the FAF operation, however, misguided, intended to do.

The Obama assault weapon ban headline is almost three years old.

I see nothing that even proximately relates to something that would affect law abiding citizens constitutional right to have weapons.

Frankly, you guys are just that paranoid or hate Obama/ATF that much.

The Obama assault weapon ban headline is almost three years old.

So what if it was 2 years and 7 months ago? You said

How could illegal weapons in Mexico ever be a case for "stricter gun control" in the United States?

You wanted proof that the action of fast a furious was all about gun control and firearms ban. The links were news articals when fast and furious was in operation. So the links no matter the date are realivant to our discussion.

As I have said

Do not even suggest that these four (obama, holder clinton, and napolitano) did not have any knowledge about the governments involment with gunrunner. They knew aboiut it and they were still trying to push for more gun control.

 

[Salt Jones]

Stock up on that ammo. I need a new vette.

 

[BoycottTheday]

Good advice considering how much ammo will cost after the lead ban is in place.

 

[westwall]

Actually his points are well founded. Nothing you have said or links that you have posted to, counter any of his points. I am not prepared to accuse the WH of a conspiricy to undermine the 2nd Ammendment yet. Too much of what is being used to support that contention is based on hearsay.

However, your contention that it is simply a case of incompetence doesn't even come close to describing what has happened. There is a conspiricy in operation, (Holder has admitted to that publicly by his very statements both before and after the operation came to light, it may only be within the doors of the DOJ but a conspiricy todestroy evidence is absolutely under way, a conspiricy to deny information to a Congressional review is absolutley underway, a conspiricy to make agents unavailable to Congress is certainly underway) the scope and goal is what is in question.

If you have any care for this country then you should consider that rather then your support for your political party. This was criminal behavior commited by our DOJ on a grand scale and innocent citizens as well as our own law enforcement agent have been murdered because of it. I hope even a political fundamentalist such as yourself can see that.

If the DOJ committed a crime, the guilty parties should be punished. You'll never hear me argue that, and I never indicated anything to the contrary. "Political fundamentalist"? Give me a break. You'll never hear me argue that any administration should be above the law.

What I strongly doubt is that this was some sort of nefarious scheme cooked up by the Obama Administration (or it's agents) to assault the 2nd amendment. That is just stupid beyond belief. I still haven't had anyone logically explain to me how that would even work. Some people are paranoid.

I think it's tragic that a law enforcement officer and innocent people were killed by these guns. I highly doubt that the outcome would have been any different if the guns were there. The murderous would have just used a different weapon. After all, "guns don't kill people, people kill people" right?

It's not like the Mexican border was a peaceful place before we dumped 2000 weapons on the streets.

I think that the level of the conspiricy is not known yet. If the hearsay evidence can be verified then yes I would say that Obama is up to his eyeballs in a conspiricy to undermine the 2nd Amendment. If that hearsay evidence can not be verified then I agree with you, he had no part of it.

However, Holder was definately up to something nefarious that is far, far beyond the scope of any legal investigation (because as has been pointed out there WAS NO INVESTIGATION OF ANY KIND), the question is what were his goals and and who gave him his mandate. Was it all him or did someone send him off on his scheme.

 

[westwall]

Stock up on that ammo. I need a new vette.

I'd invest in a brain if I were you, you might need one soon.

 

[westwall]

I can't say with 100 percent surity that was the intent of gunrunner when it was first started but I am 100 percent thats was obama's intent when he continued it.

The thing is that the percent of guns that went to Mexican drug cartels is so small, that it was almost useless. I think at its greatest American weapons make up a whopping 2% of the guns in Mexico. It could have been an attempt to manufacture evidence to make a case for stricter gun control.

How? How could illegal weapons in Mexico ever be a case for "stricter gun control" in the United States?

It's just silly.

Here's a little reminder for you.


Mexican President Felipe Calderon called on Congress on Thursday to reinstate a federal ban on assault weapons that he said are ending up in the hands of violent drug cartels south of the border, using a highly contentious estimate of U.S. guns seized in Mexico when addressing Capitol Hill lawmakers.

Mr. Calderone said he respects the Second Amendment, but argued that violence south of the border spiked in 2004 after the expiration of a U.S. ban on semiautomatic weapons. Echoing statements made by President Obama Wednesday, Mr. Calderon said the U.S. bears some responsibility in propping up the drug trade with its demand for narcotics and supply of guns.

Pointedly, he warned that U.S. failure to rein in weapons dealing leaves America vulnerable to the drug-war violence wreaking havoc in Mexico.

“With all due respect, if you do not regulate the sale of these weapons in the right way, nothing guarantees that criminals here in the United States with access to the same power of weapons will not decide to challenge American authorities and civilians,” he said.

Mr. Calderon told a joint session of Congress that of the 75,000 guns seized by Mexican authorities over the last three years, 80 percent are traced to the U.S.

That assertion is suspect as gun-rights advocates and several media outlets have debunked similar figures in the past. Indeed, Mr. Calderon’s comments drew a harsh rebuke from the National Rifle Association on Thursday.

“The answer to Mexico’s drug and violence problem does not lie in dismantling the Second Amendment; it lies in making sure that the Mexican government takes care of problems on their side of the border,” NRA spokesman Andrew Arulanandam said. “With all due respect to the president, he’s either intentionally using false data, or he’s unknowingly using bad numbers.”

Mr. Arulanandam pointed to congressional testimony given in March 2009 by an official with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives who said there is no factual basis for the claim that as many as 90 percent of the weapons come from the U.S.

Both as a candidate and as president, Mr. Obama has said he supports bringing back the assault weapons ban, but has not pushed Congress on the issue, at least publicly.

Asked on Thursday if he still supports it, White House press secretary Robert Gibbs would not answer directly. Instead, he referred reporters to Mr. Obama’s comments on Wednesday, when he touted the fact that U.S. authorities now search 100 percent of southbound rail cargo.

An estimated 23,000 people have died since Mr. Calderon took office in 2006, promising to crack down on the country’s drug traffickers. A recent spate of high-profile incidents, led by the killing of a U.S. consulate employee in March, has injected a renewed sense of immediacy on the part of the United States.

Mr. Calderon’s remarks on guns were not the only controversial statements he made to Congress.

For the second day in a row, he blasted the new law in Arizona that requires police to make a reasonable attempt to check immigration status of people encountered during “a lawful stop, detention or arrest” that they suspect might be in the country illegally. The law specifically precludes using race or ethnicity as a test for reasonable suspicion, but critics say they fear police will resort to racial profiling anyway.

“It is a law that not only ignores a reality that cannot be erased by decree, but also introduces a terrible idea: using racial profiling as a basis for law enforcement,” Mr. Calderon said. “And that is why I agree with the president, who says the new law carries a great amount of breach, when core values that we all care about are breached.”

While Democratic lawmakers in the audience applauded the comment, it sparked a harsh reaction among Republicans.



Calderon blames U.S. guns for violence - Washington Times

 

[BoycottTheday]

Im sure corruption has nothing to do with how fucked Mexico is.

Who here trusts a mexican cop that you dint bribe first?

LIAMD

 

[Flagwavrusa]

To try and identify the people on this side of the border that were procuring and then selling weapons to the cartels.

The people that could be prosecuted. Perhaps the ATF felt like there were some big fish in the illegal weapons industry on this side of the border that they could net.

It sounds like they didn't understand how the process works and that little fish were basically doing all the buying and running.

I highly doubt they intended for the weapons to get over to Mexico, but being a poorly planned operation, they quickly lost control of the situation.



I always find that it's better to use proper grammar if you are going to insult people's intellectual ability.

If you are implying the arrests and charges against the straw buyers and the one middle man who is still behind bars, which occurred a month after a border agent was killed, was a white wash, I think that is absurd. Should he have waited three months? What amount of time would have been appropriate for you to think this wasn't an attempt at deflecting away from the border agent's death?



Sting operations are legal when conducted by law enforcement officials to facilitate law enforcement efforts.

Sting Operation Law & Legal Definition

Obviously, if a cop, Mexican or otherwise is committing illegal acts to enrich themselves that is a completely different situation. That wasn't the case here.

I don't know how you can doubt that the DOJ intended these guns to end up in Mexico, when the ATF agents testified before the House Oversight Committee that their supervisors were ordering agents on the ground to let that happen. The ATF agents also said that their supervisors were elated whenever FAF guns turned up at Mexican crime scenes.

In fact, you have no reasonable law enforcement explanation for why the ATF was allowing weapons to flow into the hands of the drug cartels in Mexico. Your only defense is to keep portraying it as a bungled operation.

Several times you've dismissed as implausible the idea Obama could be funnelling guns to Mexico as part of some assault on the second amendment. In a previous post I proffered a reasonable scenario, but you never responded. Again ,the endgame for Holder and Obama would by something like the following hypothetical press conference:

“My fellow Americans, today, in conjunction with my good colleagues in the house and senate, I am proposing legislation to fundamentally overhaul our nation’s gun regulation laws. Over the past year we have seen an alarming upsurge in violent crime across the border by ruthless drug cartels who threaten to undermine the security of Mexico. Unfortunately, the recent crime wave has its origins here in this country. Thousands of weapons recovered at Mexican crime scenes have been discovered to have been illegally purchased in the United States and trafficked across the border. This illegal flow of guns is straining our relations with the Mexican government, and is unnecessarily leading to the deaths of innocent civilians. The problem has reached crisis proportions, and requires decisive action.

Accordingly, I am calling upon congress to swiftly pass legislation that will require all gun owners to register their weapons with the BATF and to notify the agency when they have a change of address. It’s the only way we can keep track of these weapons and insure they are not falling into the wrong hands. Additionally, I am proposing restrictions on the number of firearms a household may be permitted to own to a limit of 2 handguns and 2 rifles. The recent violence we have seen bears witness to the need for greater exercise of federal control over gun ownership as a way of avoiding pointless and preventable deaths.”

Of course, we now know the 'crisis' has been totally manufactured by the administration by flooding Mexico with weapons. The only reasonable explanation appears to be at some point trying to justify implementing tighter gun control.

Agent: I was ordered to let U.S. guns into Mexico - CBS News

Frankly, that just seems paranoid. So let me get this straight, the administration forced the ATF to dump 2000 weapons into Mexico so they could drum up support for legislation that would most likely be deemed unconstitutional anyways? I mean, what did they intend to do with all the ATF agents who knew about it? None of it adds up, and even as conjecture, it's a reach that the government would go to such extreme and goofy lengths to try and grab your guns (or hassle you) or whatever.

Even if it were the case, where was the push from the administration to try and accomplish what you believe their goals are?

It's certainly not going to happen now.

So, yeah, I am left to think this was a massively bungled operation. I don't need to see a conspiracy when ineptitude is a better explanation.

What is your theory on how the Fast and Furious plan was supposed to work? You keep saying it was simply a botched operation, but claiming that the ATF merely screwed up presumes they had a plan that if carried out competently had the potential to succeed.

ATF agents and supervisor memos leave no doubt the ATF intended that these weapons
end up in Mexico. Yet, as you yourself admit, the ATF has no jurisdiction in Mexico, and therefore it could not track the weapons through surveillance, nor investigate and prosecute anyone once the weapons showed up at Mexican crime scenes.

If this was simply a bungled sting operation, as you claim, what conceivable scenario do you have in mind where the operation could have achieved its objective? Assuming the motive wasnt to flood Mexico with American guns to bolster a case for tighter gun restrictions in the U.S., explain the Fast and Furious game plan because I still don't get it.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I don't know how you can doubt that the DOJ intended these guns to end up in Mexico, when the ATF agents testified before the House Oversight Committee that their supervisors were ordering agents on the ground to let that happen. The ATF agents also said that their supervisors were elated whenever FAF guns turned up at Mexican crime scenes.

In fact, you have no reasonable law enforcement explanation for why the ATF was allowing weapons to flow into the hands of the drug cartels in Mexico. Your only defense is to keep portraying it as a bungled operation.

Several times you've dismissed as implausible the idea Obama could be funnelling guns to Mexico as part of some assault on the second amendment. In a previous post I proffered a reasonable scenario, but you never responded. Again ,the endgame for Holder and Obama would by something like the following hypothetical press conference:

“My fellow Americans, today, in conjunction with my good colleagues in the house and senate, I am proposing legislation to fundamentally overhaul our nation’s gun regulation laws. Over the past year we have seen an alarming upsurge in violent crime across the border by ruthless drug cartels who threaten to undermine the security of Mexico. Unfortunately, the recent crime wave has its origins here in this country. Thousands of weapons recovered at Mexican crime scenes have been discovered to have been illegally purchased in the United States and trafficked across the border. This illegal flow of guns is straining our relations with the Mexican government, and is unnecessarily leading to the deaths of innocent civilians. The problem has reached crisis proportions, and requires decisive action.

Accordingly, I am calling upon congress to swiftly pass legislation that will require all gun owners to register their weapons with the BATF and to notify the agency when they have a change of address. It’s the only way we can keep track of these weapons and insure they are not falling into the wrong hands. Additionally, I am proposing restrictions on the number of firearms a household may be permitted to own to a limit of 2 handguns and 2 rifles. The recent violence we have seen bears witness to the need for greater exercise of federal control over gun ownership as a way of avoiding pointless and preventable deaths.”

Of course, we now know the 'crisis' has been totally manufactured by the administration by flooding Mexico with weapons. The only reasonable explanation appears to be at some point trying to justify implementing tighter gun control.

Agent: I was ordered to let U.S. guns into Mexico - CBS News

Frankly, that just seems paranoid. So let me get this straight, the administration forced the ATF to dump 2000 weapons into Mexico so they could drum up support for legislation that would most likely be deemed unconstitutional anyways? I mean, what did they intend to do with all the ATF agents who knew about it? None of it adds up, and even as conjecture, it's a reach that the government would go to such extreme and goofy lengths to try and grab your guns (or hassle you) or whatever.

Even if it were the case, where was the push from the administration to try and accomplish what you believe their goals are?

It's certainly not going to happen now.

So, yeah, I am left to think this was a massively bungled operation. I don't need to see a conspiracy when ineptitude is a better explanation.

What is your theory on how the Fast and Furious plan was supposed to work? You keep saying it was simply a botched operation, but claiming that the ATF merely screwed up presumes they had a plan that if carried out competently had the potential to succeed.

ATF agents and supervisor memos leave no doubt the ATF intended that these weapons
end up in Mexico. Yet, as you yourself admit, the ATF has no jurisdiction in Mexico, and therefore it could not track the weapons through surveillance, nor investigate and prosecute anyone once the weapons showed up at Mexican crime scenes.

If this was simply a bungled sting operation, as you claim, what conceivable scenario do you have in mind where the operation could have achieved its objective? Assuming the motive wasnt to flood Mexico with American guns to bolster a case for tighter gun restrictions in the U.S., explain the Fast and Furious game plan because I still don't get it.

I don't think he's going to come back.

 

[westwall]

Frankly, that just seems paranoid. So let me get this straight, the administration forced the ATF to dump 2000 weapons into Mexico so they could drum up support for legislation that would most likely be deemed unconstitutional anyways? I mean, what did they intend to do with all the ATF agents who knew about it? None of it adds up, and even as conjecture, it's a reach that the government would go to such extreme and goofy lengths to try and grab your guns (or hassle you) or whatever.

Even if it were the case, where was the push from the administration to try and accomplish what you believe their goals are?

It's certainly not going to happen now.

So, yeah, I am left to think this was a massively bungled operation. I don't need to see a conspiracy when ineptitude is a better explanation.

What is your theory on how the Fast and Furious plan was supposed to work? You keep saying it was simply a botched operation, but claiming that the ATF merely screwed up presumes they had a plan that if carried out competently had the potential to succeed.

ATF agents and supervisor memos leave no doubt the ATF intended that these weapons
end up in Mexico. Yet, as you yourself admit, the ATF has no jurisdiction in Mexico, and therefore it could not track the weapons through surveillance, nor investigate and prosecute anyone once the weapons showed up at Mexican crime scenes.

If this was simply a bungled sting operation, as you claim, what conceivable scenario do you have in mind where the operation could have achieved its objective? Assuming the motive wasnt to flood Mexico with American guns to bolster a case for tighter gun restrictions in the U.S., explain the Fast and Furious game plan because I still don't get it.

I don't think he's going to come back.

He can't. No one called him a name, instead we asked very cogent questions that an honest person would have asked. That confused him and the answers are probably bothering him more.

 

[Trajan]

well so much for thew WH was not advised of the intricacies of the operation, they had a friggin chart for god sakes. They knew, and they lied, period.


Late Friday, the White House turned over new documents in the Congressional investigation into the ATF “Fast and Furious” gunwalking scandal.

The documents show extensive communications between then-ATF Special Agent in Charge of the Phoenix office Bill Newell – who led Fast and Furious – and then-White House National Security Staffer Kevin O’Reilly. Emails indicate the two also spoke on the phone. Such detailed, direct communications between a local ATF manager in Phoenix and a White House national security staffer has raised interest among Congressional investigators looking into Fast and Furious. Newell has said he and O’Reilly are long time friends. …

Among the documents produced: an email in which ATF’s Newell sent the White House’s O’Reilly an “arrow chart reflecting the ultimate destination of firearms we intercepted and/or where the guns ended up.” The chart shows arrows leading from Arizona to destinations all over Mexico.

In response, O’Reilly wrote on Sept. 3, 2010 “The arrow chart is really interesting – and – no surprise – implies at least that different (Drug Trafficking Organizations) in Mexico have very different and geographically distinct networks in the US for acquiring guns. Did last year’s TX effort develop a similar graphic?”

more at-

New Fast and Furious docs released by White House - CBS News Investigates - CBS News

 

[geauxtohell]

What is your theory on how the Fast and Furious plan was supposed to work? You keep saying it was simply a botched operation, but claiming that the ATF merely screwed up presumes they had a plan that if carried out competently had the potential to succeed.

ATF agents and supervisor memos leave no doubt the ATF intended that these weapons
end up in Mexico. Yet, as you yourself admit, the ATF has no jurisdiction in Mexico, and therefore it could not track the weapons through surveillance, nor investigate and prosecute anyone once the weapons showed up at Mexican crime scenes.

If this was simply a bungled sting operation, as you claim, what conceivable scenario do you have in mind where the operation could have achieved its objective? Assuming the motive wasnt to flood Mexico with American guns to bolster a case for tighter gun restrictions in the U.S., explain the Fast and Furious game plan because I still don't get it.

I don't think he's going to come back.

He can't. No one called him a name, instead we asked very cogent questions that an honest person would have asked. That confused him and the answers are probably bothering him more.

No. I was studying for boards for the last month. That takes precedence over USMB. Now that I have some time, I'll try and get back to some of this.

Just not tonight. I just got off shift and it was a doozy.

 

[Xchel]

I don't think there is some conspiracy behind it..I just think the people at the ATF are IDIOTS who didn't think about not being able to track the weapons once they got into Mexico..they still have the we are the world power ego thinking they can do whatever they want..then they discover that their authority ends at the border. What really pisses me off is these guns showing up at crime scenes of murders in Mexico and of our border patrol agents in the US....that really pisses me off. Our ATF handed the cartel the weapons they need to murder citizens of Mexico and our border patrol agents..how nice. Someone needs to answer for this that is for sure..and I don't believe it was simply 2000 weapons either that is simply all they will admit to.

 

[Douger]

My hero.

 

[Trajan]

I don't think there is some conspiracy behind it..I just think the people at the ATF are IDIOTS who didn't think about not being able to track the weapons once they got into Mexico..they still have the we are the world power ego thinking they can do whatever they want..then they discover that their authority ends at the border. What really pisses me off is these guns showing up at crime scenes of murders in Mexico and of our border patrol agents in the US....that really pisses me off. Our ATF handed the cartel the weapons they need to murder citizens of Mexico and our border patrol agents..how nice. Someone needs to answer for this that is for sure..and I don't believe it was simply 2000 weapons either that is simply all they will admit to.

I agree. like most stupidity though and this as murderous stupidity being even more egregious, its the cover up that will wind up hanging folks.

further- if they inherited a go, no-go decisions from the bush team, well, thats their deal, they have to own it, if it was taking place under the previous admin. they should go after them too.

 

[bitterlyclingin]

According to Fox just a few minutes ago, Holder was informed of ongoing events in "Fast and Furious" in October, 2010 in two e-mails sent to him by Assistant Attorney Geral Lanny Breuer instead of just a few weeks prior to May 2011 as he told Darrell Issa's House Committee under oath. Grounds for Holder's removal, jailtime or turn him to have him implicate Obama.
When Hitler, Himmler, and Goering referred to the Final Solution they absolutely never did so in writing and when they spoke aboout it, they spoke about it in riddles. Were going to find the same thing going on here between Obama and Holder re: Fast and Furious.

 

[CaféAuLait]

According to Fox just a few minutes ago, Holder was informed of ongoing events in "Fast and Furious" in October, 2010 in two e-mails sent to him by Assistant Attorney Geral Lanny Breuer instead of just a few weeks prior to May 2011 as he told Darrell Issa's House Committee under oath. Grounds for Holder's removal, jailtime or turn him to have him implicate Obama.
When Hitler, Himmler, and Goering referred to the Final Solution they absolutely never did so in writing and when they spoke aboout it, they spoke about it in riddles. Were going to find the same thing going on here between Obama and Holder re: Fast and Furious.

CBS is covering it now:


AFT Fast and Furious: New documents show Attorney General Eric Holder was briefed in July 2010

WASHINGTON - New documents obtained by CBS News show Attorney General Eric Holder was sent briefings on the controversial Fast and Furious guns operation as far back as July of 2010. That directly contradicts his statement to Congress.

AFT Fast and Furious: New documents show Attorney General Eric Holder was briefed in July 2010 - CBS News Investigates - CBS News

 

[Trajan]

According to Fox just a few minutes ago, Holder was informed of ongoing events in "Fast and Furious" in October, 2010 in two e-mails sent to him by Assistant Attorney Geral Lanny Breuer instead of just a few weeks prior to May 2011 as he told Darrell Issa's House Committee under oath. Grounds for Holder's removal, jailtime or turn him to have him implicate Obama.
When Hitler, Himmler, and Goering referred to the Final Solution they absolutely never did so in writing and when they spoke aboout it, they spoke about it in riddles. Were going to find the same thing going on here between Obama and Holder re: Fast and Furious.

CBS is covering it now:


AFT Fast and Furious: New documents show Attorney General Eric Holder was briefed in July 2010

WASHINGTON - New documents obtained by CBS News show Attorney General Eric Holder was sent briefings on the controversial Fast and Furious guns operation as far back as July of 2010. That directly contradicts his statement to Congress.

AFT Fast and Furious: New documents show Attorney General Eric Holder was briefed in July 2010 - CBS News Investigates - CBS News

I guess their Friday document dump I posted above didn't put off CBS's Sharyl Attkisson who originally broke this whole story way back when.

This isn't fox, we have a bona fide;