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How the worm has turned on obama
I remember very clearly Obama--and Hillary Clinton accusing American citizens of delivering guns to Mexican drug cartels.
I still think this Fast and Furious program was a conduit intended to take away our rights to own guns--especially semi-automatic weapons. There is no other possible rational reason for the Fast and Furious program--other than that.
I can't say with 100 percent surity that was the intent of gunrunner when it was first started but I am 100 percent thats was obama's intent when he continued it.
Actually his points are well founded. Nothing you have said or links that you have posted to, counter any of his points. I am not prepared to accuse the WH of a conspiricy to undermine the 2nd Ammendment yet. Too much of what is being used to support that contention is based on hearsay.
However, your contention that it is simply a case of incompetence doesn't even come close to describing what has happened. There is a conspiricy in operation, (Holder has admitted to that publicly by his very statements both before and after the operation came to light, it may only be within the doors of the DOJ but a conspiricy todestroy evidence is absolutely under way, a conspiricy to deny information to a Congressional review is absolutley underway, a conspiricy to make agents unavailable to Congress is certainly underway) the scope and goal is what is in question.
If you have any care for this country then you should consider that rather then your support for your political party. This was criminal behavior commited by our DOJ on a grand scale and innocent citizens as well as our own law enforcement agent have been murdered because of it. I hope even a political fundamentalist such as yourself can see that.
I remember very clearly Obama--and Hillary Clinton accusing American citizens of delivering guns to Mexican drug cartels.
I still think this Fast and Furious program was a conduit intended to take away our rights to own guns--especially semi-automatic weapons. There is no other possible rational reason for the Fast and Furious program--other than that.
I can't say with 100 percent surity that was the intent of gunrunner when it was first started but I am 100 percent thats was obama's intent when he continued it.
The thing is that the percent of guns that went to Mexican drug cartels is so small, that it was almost useless. I think at its greatest American weapons make up a whopping 2% of the guns in Mexico. It could have been an attempt to manufacture evidence to make a case for stricter gun control.
The arrests mentioned in the article have NOTHING to do with Fast and Furious. The professed goal of FAF was to bring down Mexican drug cartels by putting together a case against the big wigs. The article you cited makes it clear that the arrestees were not drug cartel kingpins:
How does arresting the "straw men" in the FAF have "nothing to do with FAF"? Obviously the arrests were small fish. I never claimed otherwise. Furthermore, If the stated goal of FAF by the ATF is to "bring down Mexican drug cartels", they've got a jurisdictional problem. The point of the FAF was, like gunrunner, to try and figure out how the Mexican Cartels were getting weapons from the US and then put a stop to it.
"Yet after thousands of man hours and millions of dollars spent, only one of the 20 suspects remains behind bars. Most were released within 24 hours of their arrest. In the end, all prosecutors got was one middle man and a handful of straw buyers."
None of these arrests required allowing guns to flow into Mexico, all of those arrested were charged for acts committed here in America, and none of the FAF weapons recovered in Mexico were a factor.
They would have to be charged with "acts committed here in America". You understand the ATF can't cross the border and start arresting Mexican citizens, right?
Pure speculation on your part. Furthermore, FAF was certainly a legitimate law enforcement purpose. Trying to prevent the illegal sale and trafficking of weapons is inherent to the ATF's mission.
Pretty god damn obvious this was a scheme orchestrated in preparation for an assault on the second amendment.There was no monitoring of the chain of custody of these weapons when they disappeared into Mexico. The spike in crime was so dramatic the Mexican police thought the cartels were starting a civil war, and meanwhile gun control advocate Hilary Clinton is railing against American guns showing up at Mexican crime scenes.
If you are paranoid. How can anyone make a legitimate case about changing the gun laws in this country based on the fact that the Mexican border is a war zone right now? It's idiotic. No one is coming after your precious guns.
You're either too stupid to connect the dots, or you're another Democrat sock puppet for whom the Obama regime is above the law.
Show me what law has been broken.
Actually his points are well founded. Nothing you have said or links that you have posted to, counter any of his points. I am not prepared to accuse the WH of a conspiricy to undermine the 2nd Ammendment yet. Too much of what is being used to support that contention is based on hearsay.
However, your contention that it is simply a case of incompetence doesn't even come close to describing what has happened. There is a conspiricy in operation, (Holder has admitted to that publicly by his very statements both before and after the operation came to light, it may only be within the doors of the DOJ but a conspiricy todestroy evidence is absolutely under way, a conspiricy to deny information to a Congressional review is absolutley underway, a conspiricy to make agents unavailable to Congress is certainly underway) the scope and goal is what is in question.
If you have any care for this country then you should consider that rather then your support for your political party. This was criminal behavior commited by our DOJ on a grand scale and innocent citizens as well as our own law enforcement agent have been murdered because of it. I hope even a political fundamentalist such as yourself can see that.
If the DOJ committed a crime, the guilty parties should be punished. You'll never hear me argue that, and I never indicated anything to the contrary. "Political fundamentalist"? Give me a break. You'll never hear me argue that any administration should be above the law.
What I strongly doubt is that this was some sort of nefarious scheme cooked up by the Obama Administration (or it's agents) to assault the 2nd amendment. That is just stupid beyond belief. I still haven't had anyone logically explain to me how that would even work. Some people are paranoid.
I think it's tragic that a law enforcement officer and innocent people were killed by these guns. I highly doubt that the outcome would have been any different if the guns were there. The murderous would have just used a different weapon. After all, "guns don't kill people, people kill people" right?
It's not like the Mexican border was a peaceful place before we dumped 2000 weapons on the streets.
And if you actually believe that this program wasn't intended to BAN the sale of semi-automatic weapons to American citizens--then why did they deliver weapons to violent Mexican drug lords--to commit mass slaughter in the streets of Mexico?
) Okay, according to you, the ATF was using FAF to try to stop illegal gun trafficking by identifying straw buyers and who they were selling the weapons to. Yet you admit that the ATF has no jurisdiction to investigate and prosecute Mexican citizens. Obviously, no one inside Mexico was ever going to get arrested as part of FAF. Please explain at last how allowing guns to disappear into Mexico, knowing full well they were destined for the drug cartels and would be used to commit crimes, was supposed to help the ATF stop illegal gun trafficking. Be specific because so far your explanation makes absolutely no sense.
2) Holder files charges against 20 straw buyers a month after Border Agent Brian Terry is killed and FAF is becoming a scandal, and you say this is purely coincidental? Not exactly Sherlock Holmes are you.(?)
3) You say "Show me what law has been broken." Are you serious dude? Surely you understand that transporting weapons into Mexico is highly illegal, just like transporting drugs into America is highly illegal. So, if I understand you correctly, a Mexican law enforcement official who facilitates drug trafficking into the United States is corrupt, but members of the DOJ who facilitate gun running into Mexico aren't? If that were the case there would be no need for a cover up.
Actually his points are well founded. Nothing you have said or links that you have posted to, counter any of his points. I am not prepared to accuse the WH of a conspiricy to undermine the 2nd Ammendment yet. Too much of what is being used to support that contention is based on hearsay.
However, your contention that it is simply a case of incompetence doesn't even come close to describing what has happened. There is a conspiricy in operation, (Holder has admitted to that publicly by his very statements both before and after the operation came to light, it may only be within the doors of the DOJ but a conspiricy todestroy evidence is absolutely under way, a conspiricy to deny information to a Congressional review is absolutley underway, a conspiricy to make agents unavailable to Congress is certainly underway) the scope and goal is what is in question.
If you have any care for this country then you should consider that rather then your support for your political party. This was criminal behavior commited by our DOJ on a grand scale and innocent citizens as well as our own law enforcement agent have been murdered because of it. I hope even a political fundamentalist such as yourself can see that.
If the DOJ committed a crime, the guilty parties should be punished. You'll never hear me argue that, and I never indicated anything to the contrary. "Political fundamentalist"? Give me a break. You'll never hear me argue that any administration should be above the law.
What I strongly doubt is that this was some sort of nefarious scheme cooked up by the Obama Administration (or it's agents) to assault the 2nd amendment. That is just stupid beyond belief. I still haven't had anyone logically explain to me how that would even work. Some people are paranoid.
I think it's tragic that a law enforcement officer and innocent people were killed by these guns. I highly doubt that the outcome would have been any different if the guns were there. The murderous would have just used a different weapon. After all, "guns don't kill people, people kill people" right?
It's not like the Mexican border was a peaceful place before we dumped 2000 weapons on the streets.
It would have been a lot more peaceful with 2000 less semi-automatic weapons on the street--
What was the purpose of this Fast and Furious program?
Now you're going to come back with--we'll they say they were tracking these weapons--yet there was no GPS installed on these weapons--so then we must assume they meant they would track them after they killed someone.--
To every crime scene--we look for MOTIVE in doing something. And that motive was to use the deaths in Mexico--as a conduit to ban semi-automatic weapons from being sold in the United States. And the only people who have been more than vocal in doing that is none other than Barack Obama and Eric Holder--who happens to be commander and chief of the ATF.
I can't say with 100 percent surity that was the intent of gunrunner when it was first started but I am 100 percent thats was obama's intent when he continued it.
The thing is that the percent of guns that went to Mexican drug cartels is so small, that it was almost useless. I think at its greatest American weapons make up a whopping 2% of the guns in Mexico. It could have been an attempt to manufacture evidence to make a case for stricter gun control.
How? How could illegal weapons in Mexico ever be a case for "stricter gun control" in the United States?
It's just silly.
President Barack Obama has promised a crackdown on guns from the U.S., which account for 90 percent of the weapons confiscated in Mexico.
"This is a two-way street," Obama said during CBS' "Face the Nation" news program Sunday. "We've got to do our part in reducing the flow of cash and guns south."
Last week, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said she would like to see the U.S. government reinstate the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban, though she added that such a move would face fierce opposition in Congress.
Last week, the Department of Homeland Security announced it would send dogs, X-ray machines and 100 more agents to the border to search southbound cars and trains for guns and cash headed to Mexico.
The thing is that the percent of guns that went to Mexican drug cartels is so small, that it was almost useless. I think at its greatest American weapons make up a whopping 2% of the guns in Mexico. It could have been an attempt to manufacture evidence to make a case for stricter gun control.
How? How could illegal weapons in Mexico ever be a case for "stricter gun control" in the United States?
It's just silly.
Remember this?
Also this
oh and Clinton let's not forget about clinton
Last week, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said she would like to see the U.S. government reinstate the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban, though she added that such a move would face fierce opposition in Congress.
OH and homeland security
Last week, the Department of Homeland Security announced it would send dogs, X-ray machines and 100 more agents to the border to search southbound cars and trains for guns and cash headed to Mexico.
Read more: Mired in violence, gun-strict Mexico points to U.S.
Holder said that putting the ban back in place would not only be a positive move by the United States, it would help cut down on the flow of guns going across the border into Mexico, which is struggling with heavy violence among drug cartels along the border.
Obama to Seek New Assault Weapons Ban - ABC News
Do not even suggest that these four did not have any knowledge about the governments involment with gunrunner.
How? How could illegal weapons in Mexico ever be a case for "stricter gun control" in the United States?
It's just silly.
Remember this?
Also this
oh and Clinton let's not forget about clinton
OH and homeland security
Last week, the Department of Homeland Security announced it would send dogs, X-ray machines and 100 more agents to the border to search southbound cars and trains for guns and cash headed to Mexico.
Read more: Mired in violence, gun-strict Mexico points to U.S.
Holder said that putting the ban back in place would not only be a positive move by the United States, it would help cut down on the flow of guns going across the border into Mexico, which is struggling with heavy violence among drug cartels along the border.
Obama to Seek New Assault Weapons Ban - ABC News
Do not even suggest that these four did not have any knowledge about the governments involment with gunrunner.
Oh they did that's for sure, and the small number of guns looks to me like they were depending on a friendly media and the general public's ignorance to make a good case for stronger gun laws.
Actually his points are well founded. Nothing you have said or links that you have posted to, counter any of his points. I am not prepared to accuse the WH of a conspiricy to undermine the 2nd Ammendment yet. Too much of what is being used to support that contention is based on hearsay.
However, your contention that it is simply a case of incompetence doesn't even come close to describing what has happened. There is a conspiricy in operation, (Holder has admitted to that publicly by his very statements both before and after the operation came to light, it may only be within the doors of the DOJ but a conspiricy todestroy evidence is absolutely under way, a conspiricy to deny information to a Congressional review is absolutley underway, a conspiricy to make agents unavailable to Congress is certainly underway) the scope and goal is what is in question.
If you have any care for this country then you should consider that rather then your support for your political party. This was criminal behavior commited by our DOJ on a grand scale and innocent citizens as well as our own law enforcement agent have been murdered because of it. I hope even a political fundamentalist such as yourself can see that.
If the DOJ committed a crime, the guilty parties should be punished. You'll never hear me argue that, and I never indicated anything to the contrary. "Political fundamentalist"? Give me a break. You'll never hear me argue that any administration should be above the law.
What I strongly doubt is that this was some sort of nefarious scheme cooked up by the Obama Administration (or it's agents) to assault the 2nd amendment. That is just stupid beyond belief. I still haven't had anyone logically explain to me how that would even work. Some people are paranoid.
I think it's tragic that a law enforcement officer and innocent people were killed by these guns. I highly doubt that the outcome would have been any different if the guns were there. The murderous would have just used a different weapon. After all, "guns don't kill people, people kill people" right?
It's not like the Mexican border was a peaceful place before we dumped 2000 weapons on the streets.
It would have been a lot more peaceful with 2000 less semi-automatic weapons on the street--
What was the purpose of this Fast and Furious program?
Now you're going to come back with--we'll they say they were tracking these weapons--yet there was no GPS installed on these weapons--so then we must assume they meant they would track them after they killed someone.--
To every crime scene--we look for MOTIVE in doing something. And that motive was to use the deaths in Mexico--as a conduit to ban semi-automatic weapons from being sold in the United States. And the only people who have been more than vocal in doing that is none other than Barack Obama and Eric Holder--who happens to be commander and chief of the ATF.
) Okay, according to you, the ATF was using FAF to try to stop illegal gun trafficking by identifying straw buyers and who they were selling the weapons to. Yet you admit that the ATF has no jurisdiction to investigate and prosecute Mexican citizens. Obviously, no one inside Mexico was ever going to get arrested as part of FAF. Please explain at last how allowing guns to disappear into Mexico, knowing full well they were destined for the drug cartels and would be used to commit crimes, was supposed to help the ATF stop illegal gun trafficking. Be specific because so far your explanation makes absolutely no sense.
To try and identify the people on this side of the border that were procuring and then selling weapons to the cartels.
The people that could be prosecuted. Perhaps the ATF felt like there were some big fish in the illegal weapons industry on this side of the border that they could net.
It sounds like they didn't understand how the process works and that little fish were basically doing all the buying and running.
I highly doubt they intended for the weapons to get over to Mexico, but being a poorly planned operation, they quickly lost control of the situation.
2) Holder files charges against 20 straw buyers a month after Border Agent Brian Terry is killed and FAF is becoming a scandal, and you say this is purely coincidental? Not exactly Sherlock Holmes are you.(?)
I always find that it's better to use proper grammar if you are going to insult people's intellectual ability.
If you are implying the arrests and charges against the straw buyers and the one middle man who is still behind bars, which occurred a month after a border agent was killed, was a white wash, I think that is absurd. Should he have waited three months? What amount of time would have been appropriate for you to think this wasn't an attempt at deflecting away from the border agent's death?
3) You say "Show me what law has been broken." Are you serious dude? Surely you understand that transporting weapons into Mexico is highly illegal, just like transporting drugs into America is highly illegal. So, if I understand you correctly, a Mexican law enforcement official who facilitates drug trafficking into the United States is corrupt, but members of the DOJ who facilitate gun running into Mexico aren't? If that were the case there would be no need for a cover up.
Sting operations are legal when conducted by law enforcement officials to facilitate law enforcement efforts.
Sting Operation Law & Legal Definition
Obviously, if a cop, Mexican or otherwise is committing illegal acts to enrich themselves that is a completely different situation. That wasn't the case here.
Remember this?
Also this
oh and Clinton let's not forget about clinton
OH and homeland security
Read more: Mired in violence, gun-strict Mexico points to U.S.
Holder said that putting the ban back in place would not only be a positive move by the United States, it would help cut down on the flow of guns going across the border into Mexico, which is struggling with heavy violence among drug cartels along the border.
Obama to Seek New Assault Weapons Ban - ABC News
Do not even suggest that these four did not have any knowledge about the governments involment with gunrunner.
Oh they did that's for sure, and the small number of guns looks to me like they were depending on a friendly media and the general public's ignorance to make a good case for stronger gun laws.
ok let's get past the number of firearms that went accross the border, the number is irrelevant. However what is relevant is that obama, holder, clinton, and napolitano all had knownledge of the governments involvment with fast and furious, yet they were still trying to gain support for more gun control and even a gun ban. That tell's me given the chance obama will have a gun ban.
Oh they did that's for sure, and the small number of guns looks to me like they were depending on a friendly media and the general public's ignorance to make a good case for stronger gun laws.
ok let's get past the number of firearms that went accross the border, the number is irrelevant. However what is relevant is that obama, holder, clinton, and napolitano all had knownledge of the governments involvment with fast and furious, yet they were still trying to gain support for more gun control and even a gun ban. That tell's me given the chance obama will have a gun ban.
And at the cost of American lives. Its scarey as hell.
ok let's get past the number of firearms that went accross the border, the number is irrelevant. However what is relevant is that obama, holder, clinton, and napolitano all had knownledge of the governments involvment with fast and furious, yet they were still trying to gain support for more gun control and even a gun ban. That tell's me given the chance obama will have a gun ban.
And at the cost of American lives. Its scarey as hell.
No it's not scarey because I will never comply
And at the cost of American lives. Its scarey as hell.
No it's not scarey because I will never comply
What is scarey is that they are willing to spend American lives to win .
the thing is that the percent of guns that went to mexican drug cartels is so small, that it was almost useless. I think at its greatest american weapons make up a whopping 2% of the guns in mexico. It could have been an attempt to manufacture evidence to make a case for stricter gun control.
how? How could illegal weapons in mexico ever be a case for "stricter gun control" in the united states?
It's just silly.
remember this?
Also this
oh and clinton let's not forget about clinton
last week, secretary of state hillary clinton said she would like to see the u.s. Government reinstate the 1994 assault weapons ban, though she added that such a move would face fierce opposition in congress.
oh and homeland security
last week, the department of homeland security announced it would send dogs, x-ray machines and 100 more agents to the border to search southbound cars and trains for guns and cash headed to mexico.
read more: mired in violence, gun-strict mexico points to u.s.
holder said that putting the ban back in place would not only be a positive move by the united states, it would help cut down on the flow of guns going across the border into mexico, which is struggling with heavy violence among drug cartels along the border.
obama to seek new assault weapons ban - abc news
do not even suggest that these four did not have any knowledge about the governments involment with gunrunner.
The thing is that the percent of guns that went to Mexican drug cartels is so small, that it was almost useless. I think at its greatest American weapons make up a whopping 2% of the guns in Mexico. It could have been an attempt to manufacture evidence to make a case for stricter gun control.
How? How could illegal weapons in Mexico ever be a case for "stricter gun control" in the United States?
It's just silly.
Remember this?
Also this
oh and Clinton let's not forget about clinton
Last week, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said she would like to see the U.S. government reinstate the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban, though she added that such a move would face fierce opposition in Congress.
OH and homeland security
Last week, the Department of Homeland Security announced it would send dogs, X-ray machines and 100 more agents to the border to search southbound cars and trains for guns and cash headed to Mexico.
Read more: Mired in violence, gun-strict Mexico points to U.S.
Holder said that putting the ban back in place would not only be a positive move by the United States, it would help cut down on the flow of guns going across the border into Mexico, which is struggling with heavy violence among drug cartels along the border.
Obama to Seek New Assault Weapons Ban - ABC News
Do not even suggest that these four did not have any knowledge about the governments involment with gunrunner.
