Oddball
Unobtanium Member
No.
That duty belongs at the state level and in the courts.
That duty belongs at the state level and in the courts.
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The old reducto-ad-anarchist is one of Polkie's favorite strawmen.
More often than not, such pollution ends up violating someone's rights to property. Moreover, things like particulate standards that may make sense in the L.A. basin are completely irrelevant in a place like Rapid City, so one-size-fits-all federal rules and laws end up causing as many problems as the supposedly solve.Wrong, yet again. Unlike you, I can make those subtle distinctions between a well and judiciously regulated market and authoritarian central planning.
Rudimentary rules for uniform weights & measures and against force & fraud impinge upon nobody's liberty,
That's it? Weights and measures?
What about, say, federal regulations against industrial pollution?
No.
That duty belongs at the state level and in the courts.
There are times when a well known meme is, upon further inspection, clearly the reverse.
Fascism is regularly identified with Conservativism.
But try to define 'fascism,' and a straight line can be drawn between the definition and modern liberalism.
Some of the definitions are as follows:
1. Palingenetic ultranationalism is a theory concerning generic fascism formulated by British political theorist Roger Griffin. The key elements are that fascism can be defined by its core myth, namely that of "national rebirth" palingenesis. (Palingenesis is the concept of mythic rebirth from the ashes, embodied by the Phoenix.
2. Stanley Payne's work, which offers a "typological definition" of fascism:
a. Creation of a new nationalist authoritarian state based not merely on traditional principles or models
b. Organization of some new kind of regulated, multiclass, integrated national economic structure, whether called national corporatist, national socialist, or national syndicalist
c. Specific espousal of an idealist, voluntarist creed, normally involving the attempt to realize a new form of modern, self-determined, secular culture
d. Attempted mass mobilization with militarization of political relationships and style and with the goal of a mass party militia
e. Positive evaluation and use of, or willingness to use, violence
f. Exaltation of youth above other phases of life, emphasizing the conflict of generations, at least in effecting the initial political transformation
g. Specific tendency toward an authoritarian, charismatic, personal style of command, whether or not the command is to some degree initially elective7
Stanley Payne, Fascism: Comparison and Definition (Madison: University of Wisconsin Press, 1980), p. 7.
3. Emilio Gentile: "A mass movement, that combines different classes, but is predominantly of the middle classes, which sees itself as having a mission of national regeneration, is in a state of war with its adversaries and seeks a monopoly of power by using terror, parliamentary tactics, and compromise to create a new regime, destroying democracy." Stanley Payne, Fascism: Comparison and Definition (Madison: University of Wisconsin Press, 1980), p. 5 n.6
And, the most precise and telling definition that I have come across:
4. "Fascism is a religion of the state. It is totalitarian in that it assumes everything is political and holds that any action by the state is justified to achieve the common good. It takes responsibility for all aspects of life, including our health and well-being, and seeks to impose uniformity of thought and action, whether by force or through regulation and social pressure. Everything, including the economy and religion, must be aligned with its objectives. Any rival identity is defined as the enemy. American liberalism embodies all of these aspects of fascism." Jonah Goldberg, Liberal Fascism, p. 23
YOu really like to throw those words around, don't you?
Calling liberals fascists just shows what a parisan hack you are, and that you really don't know what fascism means. When liberals start putting in place programs like postive eugenics, you can then post crap like this.
Why because it doesn't agree with your partisan view of the world? I can't take anybody seriously that apparently thinks the motives of Washington politicians are pure because they happen to be members of their favorite corporate owned political party ,,,,, sorry.Unfortunately with today's politicians version of regulatory "reform" is just another way of saying exchanging one form of corruption for another form of corruption, the current regulatory "reforms" on the table are coming no where close to following the simple "rules" that Hayek set forth, they are simply "reform" efforts aimed at scoring political advantage and granting favors to special interests which is just as bad a regulation for regulations sake or de-regulation for de-regulations sake.
Same shit, different day.
Bullshit mumbo jumbo cop out.
It's unclear why you consider Frank Luntz to be such an important player in our economic policy, I certainly do not consider him as such, nor I suspect would Hayek since Luntz is just a glorified poll taker and political pundit with an inflated sense of his own self importance, I find the Hayek quote that you pointed out much more applicable to the progressives currently occupying the White House and Congress.Hayek even warns us about the Frank Luntz's ...
"The most effective way of making people accept the validity of the values they are to serve is to persuade them that they are really the same as those they have always held, but which were not properly understood or recognized before. And the most efficient technique to this end is to use the old words but change their meaning. Few traits of totalitarian regimes are at the same time so confusing to the superficial observer and yet so characteristic of the whole intellectual climate as this complete perversion of language."
Hayek
Apparently you're preparing to dazzle us with your inestimable wisdom, so pray continue and share your brilliance with the rest of the class, 'xplain it, I for one await with breathless anticipation.Do you understand the difference between a free market and the subsidized capitalism we currently have?
There are times when a well known meme is, upon further inspection, clearly the reverse.
Fascism is regularly identified with Conservativism.
But try to define 'fascism,' and a straight line can be drawn between the definition and modern liberalism.
Some of the definitions are as follows:
1. Palingenetic ultranationalism is a theory concerning generic fascism formulated by British political theorist Roger Griffin. The key elements are that fascism can be defined by its core myth, namely that of "national rebirth" palingenesis. (Palingenesis is the concept of mythic rebirth from the ashes, embodied by the Phoenix.
2. Stanley Payne's work, which offers a "typological definition" of fascism:
a. Creation of a new nationalist authoritarian state based not merely on traditional principles or models
b. Organization of some new kind of regulated, multiclass, integrated national economic structure, whether called national corporatist, national socialist, or national syndicalist
c. Specific espousal of an idealist, voluntarist creed, normally involving the attempt to realize a new form of modern, self-determined, secular culture
d. Attempted mass mobilization with militarization of political relationships and style and with the goal of a mass party militia
e. Positive evaluation and use of, or willingness to use, violence
f. Exaltation of youth above other phases of life, emphasizing the conflict of generations, at least in effecting the initial political transformation
g. Specific tendency toward an authoritarian, charismatic, personal style of command, whether or not the command is to some degree initially elective7
Stanley Payne, Fascism: Comparison and Definition (Madison: University of Wisconsin Press, 1980), p. 7.
3. Emilio Gentile: "A mass movement, that combines different classes, but is predominantly of the middle classes, which sees itself as having a mission of national regeneration, is in a state of war with its adversaries and seeks a monopoly of power by using terror, parliamentary tactics, and compromise to create a new regime, destroying democracy." Stanley Payne, Fascism: Comparison and Definition (Madison: University of Wisconsin Press, 1980), p. 5 n.6
And, the most precise and telling definition that I have come across:
4. "Fascism is a religion of the state. It is totalitarian in that it assumes everything is political and holds that any action by the state is justified to achieve the common good. It takes responsibility for all aspects of life, including our health and well-being, and seeks to impose uniformity of thought and action, whether by force or through regulation and social pressure. Everything, including the economy and religion, must be aligned with its objectives. Any rival identity is defined as the enemy. American liberalism embodies all of these aspects of fascism." Jonah Goldberg, Liberal Fascism, p. 23
YOu really like to throw those words around, don't you?
Calling liberals fascists just shows what a parisan hack you are, and that you really don't know what fascism means. When liberals start putting in place programs like postive eugenics, you can then post crap like this.
You can't be as ignorant as you appear, and have the gall to show the ignorance in a post such as this.
Eugenics is a policy of the early 19th century Progressives, the ones that Hillary claims as her provenance.
"Eugenics, the attempt to improve the human species socially through better breeding was a widespread and popular movement in the United States and Europe between 1910 and 1940. Eugenics was an attempt to use science (the newly discovered Mendelian laws of heredity) to solve social problems (crime, alcoholism, prostitution, rebelliousness), using trained experts. Eugenics gained much support from progressive reform thinkers, who sought to plan social development using expert knowledge in both the social and natural sciences. In eugenics, progressive reformers saw the opportunity to attack social problems efficiently by treating the cause (bad heredity) rather than the effect."
Eugenics and American social history, 1880-1950. [Genome. 1989] - PubMed result
For your education:
Francis Galton, geneticist, statistician, eugenicist, and psychologist: a prime mover in these fields in the 19th century. He introduced terms like nature versus nurture, and used surveys to gather data about intellect, and encouraged the breeding of those he believed superior. By the early 20th century, Galtons eugenics-disciples predominated in academia, and wrote that the mentally retarded and other degenerates should be prevented from breeding. A utopia organized by a eugenic religion, designed to breed fitter and smarter humans. Francis Galton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In 1927, a young unwed mother named Carrie Buck was sterilized against her will by order of the Supreme Court, decision written by Oliver Wendell Holmes, who said : The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes. Based on the Buck Decision, more than 60 thousand were operated on across the U.S. as late as the 1970s. And the opinion was adopted in Germany, where, within a year, some 56 thousand German patients had been sterilized.
"Ultimately, 60,000 Americans were coercively sterilized legally and extra-legally. Many never discovered the truth until decades later. Those who actively supported eugenics include America's most progressive figures: Woodrow Wilson, Margaret Sanger and Oliver Wendell Holmes."
War Against the Weak
And we see the echo in the current administration: Now called bioethicists, there are new acolytes of eugenics who are ready and able to make decisions about the lives of patients, assigning numerical quality of life measurements, and parcel out health care based on the scores. The retarded, handicapped, elderly, infirm would be low on the list. Those who dont score high enough will surely be deprived of healthcare.
"In the emergency stimulus legislation was substantial funding for a Federal Council on Comparative Effectiveness Research, comparative effectiveness research is generally code for limiting care based on the patient's age. Economists are familiar with the formula already in use in the U.K., where the cost of a treatment is divided by the number of years (called QALYS or quality-adjusted life years) the patient is likely to benefit. In the U.K., the formula leads to denying treatments for age-related diseases because older patients have a denominator problem -- fewer years to benefit than younger patients with other diseases."
Defend Your Health Care
You quit at the state level because legislators from Vermont will have much less of an idea --if any at all-- as to what conditions my be like in San Diego than someone from Sacramento.No.
That duty belongs at the state level and in the courts.
I just asked, why quit at the state level. California is the size of a nation. What right (in principle, ie, your principles) does the central government in Sacramento have making pollution laws that effect everywhere from San Diego to the Oregon border?
PC, you are distorting Griffin's concern with the right as it it is the left which he examines. That is not the case. For instance, "Roger Griffin has also published numerous articles and chapters relating to fascism and ultra-nationalism both inter-war and post-war (see publications list), as well as developing a specialist interest in related issues, including neo-fascism and new forms of radical right (e.g. ethnocratic liberalism and the groupuscular right), national identity, racism, multi- culturalism and multi-ethnicity, modernity, globalization, ecologism, and the psycho-historical dynamics of terrorism. Roger Griffin | Oxford Brookes University
You have to be fair to the source before you extend it.
You are, of course, correct re: Griffin. I chose the snippet, actually, to lay the groundwork for the Goldberg quote.
I had intended a much longer post, but mine often become unwieldy.
There are times when a well known meme is, upon further inspection, clearly the reverse.
Fascism is regularly identified with Conservativism.
But try to define 'fascism,' and a straight line can be drawn between the definition and modern liberalism.
Some of the definitions are as follows:
1. Palingenetic ultranationalism is a theory concerning generic fascism formulated by British political theorist Roger Griffin. The key elements are that fascism can be defined by its core myth, namely that of "national rebirth" palingenesis. (Palingenesis is the concept of mythic rebirth from the ashes, embodied by the Phoenix.
2. Stanley Payne's work, which offers a "typological definition" of fascism:
a. Creation of a new nationalist authoritarian state based not merely on traditional principles or models
b. Organization of some new kind of regulated, multiclass, integrated national economic structure, whether called national corporatist, national socialist, or national syndicalist
c. Specific espousal of an idealist, voluntarist creed, normally involving the attempt to realize a new form of modern, self-determined, secular culture
d. Attempted mass mobilization with militarization of political relationships and style and with the goal of a mass party militia
e. Positive evaluation and use of, or willingness to use, violence
f. Exaltation of youth above other phases of life, emphasizing the conflict of generations, at least in effecting the initial political transformation
g. Specific tendency toward an authoritarian, charismatic, personal style of command, whether or not the command is to some degree initially elective7
Stanley Payne, Fascism: Comparison and Definition (Madison: University of Wisconsin Press, 1980), p. 7.
3. Emilio Gentile: "A mass movement, that combines different classes, but is predominantly of the middle classes, which sees itself as having a mission of national regeneration, is in a state of war with its adversaries and seeks a monopoly of power by using terror, parliamentary tactics, and compromise to create a new regime, destroying democracy." Stanley Payne, Fascism: Comparison and Definition (Madison: University of Wisconsin Press, 1980), p. 5 n.6
And, the most precise and telling definition that I have come across:
4. "Fascism is a religion of the state. It is totalitarian in that it assumes everything is political and holds that any action by the state is justified to achieve the common good. It takes responsibility for all aspects of life, including our health and well-being, and seeks to impose uniformity of thought and action, whether by force or through regulation and social pressure. Everything, including the economy and religion, must be aligned with its objectives. Any rival identity is defined as the enemy. American liberalism embodies all of these aspects of fascism." Jonah Goldberg, Liberal Fascism, p. 23
Let's again go to the real fascist:
"The fate of nations is intimately bound up with their powers of reproduction. All nations and all empires first felt decadence gnawing at them when their birth rate fell off."
Benito Mussolini
Sounds like a FASCIST guy against birth control and abortion. Doesn't sound at all like American liberalism.
You quit at the state level because legislators from Vermont will have much less of an idea --if any at all-- as to what conditions my be like in San Diego than someone from Sacramento.No.
That duty belongs at the state level and in the courts.
I just asked, why quit at the state level. California is the size of a nation. What right (in principle, ie, your principles) does the central government in Sacramento have making pollution laws that effect everywhere from San Diego to the Oregon border?
I actually agree that fascism and modern liberalism are almost identical to each other.
So Frank Luntz is responsible for the failure of the most egregious portions of the Obama/Pelosi/Reid progressive agenda? gee I guess I owe Mr. Luntz an apology and the American People owe him a big "THANK YOU FRANK" note.Why because it doesn't agree with your partisan view of the world? I can't take anybody seriously that apparently thinks the motives of Washington politicians are pure because they happen to be members of their favorite corporate owned political party ,,,,, sorry.Bullshit mumbo jumbo cop out.
It's unclear why you consider Frank Luntz to be such an important player in our economic policy, I certainly do not consider him as such, nor I suspect would Hayek since Luntz is just a glorified poll taker and political pundit with an inflated sense of his own self importance, I find the Hayek quote that you pointed out much more applicable to the progressives currently occupying the White House and Congress.
Apparently you're preparing to dazzle us with your inestimable wisdom, so pray continue and share your brilliance with the rest of the class, 'xplain it, I for one await with breathless anticipation.Do you understand the difference between a free market and the subsidized capitalism we currently have?
If Frank Luntz is 'a glorified poll taker and political pundit with an inflated sense of his own self importance' then why do ALL Republicans lawmakers today parrot his words as gospel? He undermined health care reform with GOP parrot talk, an energy policy and regulatory reform are next...and the GOP mindless parrots will be on the floors of the Senate and House of Representatives leaving Frank's little turds all over the chambers...
Thanks for the completely non sequitur comment (I realize you zombies cannot focus on one subject at a time so I forgive inability to focus on the topic of the thread), unfortunately for you Barry Goldwater was philosophically a classical liberal and I don't really give two hoots about the Republican party and never have.Here's a flash for you...Goldwater conservatism is dead in the Republican party. Old Goldy couldn't even pass their 'purity' test.
That's nice, you however come off as a typical Democratic Party hyper-partisan Drone, if you don't like being mistaken for one you should probably stop acting like one.I have never affiliated with a party. There was a time when I voted for Republicans on a national level...NO MORE...
LOL, once again you prove your inability to read with comprehension........you need to take some wise advice from Barry Goldwater's closest friends and associates...the GOP was hijacked by far right theocrats, far left neocons and Machiavellian authoritarians ...
"Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the Republican party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them."
Barry Goldwater
Let's again go to the real fascist:
"The fate of nations is intimately bound up with their powers of reproduction. All nations and all empires first felt decadence gnawing at them when their birth rate fell off."
Benito Mussolini
Sounds like a FASCIST guy against birth control and abortion. Doesn't sound at all like American liberalism.
Birth rate is linked to the survival of a nation but when did it become the concern of a government to worry about those things? Most people who oppose birth control do it on an individual level and abortion was always a eugenics scheme to begin with that was designed to weed out the undesirables.
So Frank Luntz is responsible for the failure of the most egregious portions of the Obama/Pelosi/Reid progressive agenda? gee I guess I owe Mr. Luntz an apology and the American People owe him a big "THANK YOU FRANK" note.Why because it doesn't agree with your partisan view of the world? I can't take anybody seriously that apparently thinks the motives of Washington politicians are pure because they happen to be members of their favorite corporate owned political party ,,,,, sorry.
It's unclear why you consider Frank Luntz to be such an important player in our economic policy, I certainly do not consider him as such, nor I suspect would Hayek since Luntz is just a glorified poll taker and political pundit with an inflated sense of his own self importance, I find the Hayek quote that you pointed out much more applicable to the progressives currently occupying the White House and Congress.
Apparently you're preparing to dazzle us with your inestimable wisdom, so pray continue and share your brilliance with the rest of the class, 'xplain it, I for one await with breathless anticipation.
If Frank Luntz is 'a glorified poll taker and political pundit with an inflated sense of his own self importance' then why do ALL Republicans lawmakers today parrot his words as gospel? He undermined health care reform with GOP parrot talk, an energy policy and regulatory reform are next...and the GOP mindless parrots will be on the floors of the Senate and House of Representatives leaving Frank's little turds all over the chambers...
Thanks for the completely non sequitur comment (I realize you zombies cannot focus on one subject at a time so I forgive inability to focus on the topic of the thread), unfortunately for you Barry Goldwater was philosophically a classical liberal and I don't really give two hoots about the Republican party and never have.
That's nice, you however come off as a typical Democratic Party hyper-partisan Drone, if you don't like being mistaken for one you should probably stop acting like one.I have never affiliated with a party. There was a time when I voted for Republicans on a national level...NO MORE...
LOL, once again you prove your inability to read with comprehension........you need to take some wise advice from Barry Goldwater's closest friends and associates...the GOP was hijacked by far right theocrats, far left neocons and Machiavellian authoritarians ...
"Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the Republican party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them."
Barry Goldwater
Let's again go to the real fascist:
"The fate of nations is intimately bound up with their powers of reproduction. All nations and all empires first felt decadence gnawing at them when their birth rate fell off."
Benito Mussolini
Sounds like a FASCIST guy against birth control and abortion. Doesn't sound at all like American liberalism.
Birth rate is linked to the survival of a nation but when did it become the concern of a government to worry about those things? Most people who oppose birth control do it on an individual level and abortion was always a eugenics scheme to begin with that was designed to weed out the undesirables.
Our government gives you lucrative tax breaks for having children. Is that wrong? Is that fascist?