Fascism and the left wing

[SniperFire]

Fascism is left wing in the relationship of the people (subjects) to the government, little else matters besides that. It is as left wing as its cousins Communism and Socialism and usually comes with a Charismatic dictator as well

OK, we are now up to five people who either haven't read or didn't understand the OP.

Just to be clear here - this is NOT subjective, and is not a matter of opinion. It is purely and simply a question of being right or wrong. Which is why all dictionaries and encyclopedias and history books confirm that fascism is right wing, of course.

Always good to see posters lining up to be wrong!

Were Nazis authoritarian central planners, or not?

Are Communists authoritarian central planners, or not?

Why are you afraid to answer such simple, direct questions?

LOL

 

[Saigon]

Sniper -

Because I think there is virtually no chance at all that you would understand the replies...and even less chance that you would respond honestly if you did.

I have explained in considerable detail exactly why Fascism is considered right wing. If you read the OP and respond to the points raise, I will respond to that.

Mindless whining I'm less interested in.

 

[SniperFire]

Sniper -

Because I think there is virtually no chance at all that you would understand the replies...and even less chance that you would respond honestly if you did.

I have explained in considerable detail exactly why Fascism is considered right wing. If you read the OP and respond to the points raise, I will respond to that.

Mindless whining I'm less interested in.

You won't answer because you are a pussy.

And because you know that 'right wing' in America means Libertarian, not the Progressive central planning totalitarian that you know and love so well.

 

[Sunni Man]

Germany's invasion of the USSR during WWII was about which one of the two competing far left wing ideologies was going to ultimately dominate Europe.

And wasn't a left wing vers right wing conflict that many people have been lead to believe.

 

[Saigon]

Germany's invasion of the USSR during WWII was about which one of the two competing far left wing ideologies was going to ultimately dominate Europe.

And wasn't a left wing vers right wing conflict that many people have been lead to believe.

Unfortunately this is patently untrue.

Again, I have explained the ideological points in the OP.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Fascism is left wing in the relationship of the people (subjects) to the government, little else matters besides that. It is as left wing as its cousins Communism and Socialism and usually comes with a Charismatic dictator as well

OK, we are now up to five people who either haven't read or didn't understand the OP.

Just to be clear here - this is NOT subjective, and is not a matter of opinion. It is purely and simply a question of being right or wrong. Which is why all dictionaries and encyclopedias and history books confirm that fascism is right wing, of course.

Always good to see posters lining up to be wrong!

"Right wing" Fascism is COMPLETELY subjective and one of the biggest Progressives lies, right up there with McCarthy using his HUAC to blacklist innocent people and create a Red Scare, the imaginary economic greatness of FDR and that the Democrat Party is good for blacks.

Fascism is state control which is Left Wing ideology.

State = Left

People = Right

 

[SniperFire]

Germany's invasion of the USSR during WWII was about which one of the two competing far left wing ideologies was going to ultimately dominate Europe.

And wasn't a left wing vers right wing conflict that many people have been lead to believe.

Germany despised the 'right wing' that was America.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Below is cut from a description of fascism. Sounds more like the democratic party and the liberal left to me.

snippet:

" Where socialism sought totalitarian control of a society’s economic processes through direct state operation of the means of production, fascism sought that control indirectly, through domination of nominally private owners. Where socialism nationalized property explicitly, fascism did so implicitly, by requiring owners to use their property in the “national interest”—that is, as the autocratic authority conceived it. (Nevertheless, a few industries were operated by the state.) Where socialism abolished all market relations outright, fascism left the appearance of market relations while planning all economic activities. Where socialism abolished money and prices, fascism controlled the monetary system and set all prices and wages politically. In doing all this, fascism denatured the marketplace. Entrepreneurship was abolished. State ministries, rather than consumers, determined what was produced and under what conditions. "

Fascism: The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics | Library of Economics and Liberty

Sheldon Richman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Wry Catcher]

Academic definiton of Fascism:

Fascism: A Glossary of Political Economy Terms - Dr. Paul M. Johnson

 

[CrazedScotsman]

Facism
Nationalism
Liberalism Progressivism Democrat Independant Republican Conservative Confederacy Anarchy
Socialism
Communist

The far left is the European political spectrum and the line in the middle is the US political spectrum.

 

[SniperFire]

Hitler, Socialist, Supreme Community Organizer and Hater of Capitialists...... just like Barry:

"In the World War we had them as external foes, in our struggle as internal foes, and now, as a National-Socialist State, as external foes again.

And again it is no accident that the same State which at that time thought it could bring about the collapse of Germany by a flood of lying propaganda, now again sends a man on the same mission. Then his name was Wilson; now his name is Roosevelt. The Germany of that time, without any education in state and national politics, without any unity, without any enlightenment on the problem of the Jewish question and the working of that power, fell victim to that attack.

The great mistake is that our enemies now imagine it will happen a second time. For if at that time we were perhaps the best organized people in the world, without doubt again we are now the best organized people in the world. And if anyone in the rest of the world imagines he can shatter this people, he does not know the enduring heart of this people today, nor the enduring power, the knowledge which guides this people politically today-the National Socialist Party and its mighty organization.

Neither has he any idea of what this movement has achieved since then, how it has taken hold of our people by its accomplishments, and how it has fulfilled the Socialist ideal-which is free of all international cheating, all the "lying tirades," how it has fulfilled these Socialist ideals in a way that no other State has even begun to approach up to now, to say nothing of attain.

I am calm therefore when I face any German who is fighting in the East, or who comes home on leave-and I can tell each one of them, just look at our organization. Compare our home cities, compare the workers' settlements which we are building, compare our social organization with what you have seen on the other side. Compare the fate and the lot of the German farmer with the lot of that Russian farmer. Compare all of that, my dear friend, and then give me your judgment as to who has managed things better, and above all else, who has had more honorable intentions?

Not one man has as yet returned, who could express any other opinion than that if a Socialistic State were in the process of being realized anywhere, it was in Germany only that it was actually taking place. That is still another reason why this other world which so willingly represents capitalistic interests in particular, is attacking us. It is a combine, which even today still pretends to be able to rule the world according to its private capitalistic interests, to manage it, and when necessary, to keep on ruling it. "

Hitler Speech on the 19th Anniversary of the "Beer Hall Putsch"

 

[Wry Catcher]

Fascism
A class of political ideologies (and historical political regimes) that takes its name from the movement led by Benito Mussolini that took power in Italy in 1922. Mussolini's ideas and practices directly and indirectly influenced political movements in Germany (especially the Nazi Party), Spain (Franco's Falange Party), France, Argentina, and many other European and non-European countries right up to the present day.

The different "fascist" movements and regimes have varied considerably in their specific goals and practices, but they are usually said to be characterized by several common features:
1.
Militant nationalism, proclaiming the racial and cultural superiority of the dominant ethnic group and asserting that group's inherent right to a special dominant position over other peoples in both the domestic and the international order

2.
The adulation of a single charismatic national leader said to possess near superhuman abilities and to be the truest representation of the ideals of the national culture, whose will should therefore literally be law

3.
Emphasis on the absolute necessity of complete national unity, which is said to require a very powerful and disciplined state organization (especially an extensive secret police and censorship apparatus), unlimited by constitutional restrictions or legal requirements and under the absolute domination of the leader and his political movement or party

4.
Militant anti-Communism coupled with the belief in an extreme and imminent threat to national security from powerful and determined Communist forces both inside and outside the country

5.
Contempt for democratic socialism, democratic capitalism, liberalism, and all forms of individualism as weak, degenerate, divisive and ineffective ideologies leading only to mediocrity or national suicide

6.
Glorification of physical strength, fanatical personal loyalty to the leader, and general combat-readiness as the ultimate personal virtues

7.
A sophisticated apparatus for systematically propagandizing the population into accepting these values and ideas through skilled manipulation of the mass media, which are totally monopolized by the regime once the movement comes to power

8.
A propensity toward pursuing a militaristic and aggressive foreign policy

9.
Strict regulation and control of the economy by the regime through some form of corporatist economic planning in which the legal forms of private ownership of industry are nominally preserved but in which both workers and capitalists are obliged to submit their plans and objectives to the most detailed state regulation and extensive wage and price controls, which are designed to insure the priority of the political leadership's objectives over the private economic interests of the citizenry. Therefore under fascism most of the more important markets are allowed to operate only in a non-competitive, cartelized, and governmentally "rigged" fashion.


[See also: totalitarianism, propaganda, dictatorship, autocracy]

Link: Fascism: A Glossary of Political Economy Terms - Dr. Paul M. Johnson

 

[SniperFire]

Simple question for you, wad catcher.

Were Nazis authoritarian central planners, or not?

 

[percysunshine]

Of all the weird claims...

Why do all the anarchists buy bus tickets to Democrat convention cities?

Just another mystery of life....

.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Hitler, Socialist, Supreme Community Organizer and Hater of Capitialists...... just like Barry:

"In the World War we had them as external foes, in our struggle as internal foes, and now, as a National-Socialist State, as external foes again.

And again it is no accident that the same State which at that time thought it could bring about the collapse of Germany by a flood of lying propaganda, now again sends a man on the same mission. Then his name was Wilson; now his name is Roosevelt. The Germany of that time, without any education in state and national politics, without any unity, without any enlightenment on the problem of the Jewish question and the working of that power, fell victim to that attack.

The great mistake is that our enemies now imagine it will happen a second time. For if at that time we were perhaps the best organized people in the world, without doubt again we are now the best organized people in the world. And if anyone in the rest of the world imagines he can shatter this people, he does not know the enduring heart of this people today, nor the enduring power, the knowledge which guides this people politically today-the National Socialist Party and its mighty organization.

Neither has he any idea of what this movement has achieved since then, how it has taken hold of our people by its accomplishments, and how it has fulfilled the Socialist ideal-which is free of all international cheating, all the "lying tirades," how it has fulfilled these Socialist ideals in a way that no other State has even begun to approach up to now, to say nothing of attain.

I am calm therefore when I face any German who is fighting in the East, or who comes home on leave-and I can tell each one of them, just look at our organization. Compare our home cities, compare the workers' settlements which we are building, compare our social organization with what you have seen on the other side. Compare the fate and the lot of the German farmer with the lot of that Russian farmer. Compare all of that, my dear friend, and then give me your judgment as to who has managed things better, and above all else, who has had more honorable intentions?

Not one man has as yet returned, who could express any other opinion than that if a Socialistic State were in the process of being realized anywhere, it was in Germany only that it was actually taking place. That is still another reason why this other world which so willingly represents capitalistic interests in particular, is attacking us. It is a combine, which even today still pretends to be able to rule the world according to its private capitalistic interests, to manage it, and when necessary, to keep on ruling it. "

Hitler Speech on the 19th Anniversary of the "Beer Hall Putsch"

Smart people, even people of average intelligence, watch the feet not the lips of politicians. It's not what they say or write, it's what they do.

 

[SniperFire]

Hitler, Socialist, Supreme Community Organizer and Hater of Capitialists...... just like Barry:

"In the World War we had them as external foes, in our struggle as internal foes, and now, as a National-Socialist State, as external foes again.

And again it is no accident that the same State which at that time thought it could bring about the collapse of Germany by a flood of lying propaganda, now again sends a man on the same mission. Then his name was Wilson; now his name is Roosevelt. The Germany of that time, without any education in state and national politics, without any unity, without any enlightenment on the problem of the Jewish question and the working of that power, fell victim to that attack.

The great mistake is that our enemies now imagine it will happen a second time. For if at that time we were perhaps the best organized people in the world, without doubt again we are now the best organized people in the world. And if anyone in the rest of the world imagines he can shatter this people, he does not know the enduring heart of this people today, nor the enduring power, the knowledge which guides this people politically today-the National Socialist Party and its mighty organization.

Neither has he any idea of what this movement has achieved since then, how it has taken hold of our people by its accomplishments, and how it has fulfilled the Socialist ideal-which is free of all international cheating, all the "lying tirades," how it has fulfilled these Socialist ideals in a way that no other State has even begun to approach up to now, to say nothing of attain.

I am calm therefore when I face any German who is fighting in the East, or who comes home on leave-and I can tell each one of them, just look at our organization. Compare our home cities, compare the workers' settlements which we are building, compare our social organization with what you have seen on the other side. Compare the fate and the lot of the German farmer with the lot of that Russian farmer. Compare all of that, my dear friend, and then give me your judgment as to who has managed things better, and above all else, who has had more honorable intentions?

Not one man has as yet returned, who could express any other opinion than that if a Socialistic State were in the process of being realized anywhere, it was in Germany only that it was actually taking place. That is still another reason why this other world which so willingly represents capitalistic interests in particular, is attacking us. It is a combine, which even today still pretends to be able to rule the world according to its private capitalistic interests, to manage it, and when necessary, to keep on ruling it. "

Hitler Speech on the 19th Anniversary of the "Beer Hall Putsch"

Smart people, even people of average intelligence, watch the feet not the lips of politicians. It's not what they say or write, it's what they do.

Simple question for you, wad catcher.

Were Nazis authoritarian central planners, or not?

 

[SniperFire]

Of all the weird claims...

Why do all the anarchists buy bus tickets to Democrat convention cities?

Just another mystery of life....

.

The infographic is basically a ruse, which as presented measures degrees of authoritarian central planning.

The 'centre' as shown would be a cross between fascism and communism.

The slice of the pie which represents the American experiment would fall in the 'anarchy' area, but that would of course be a misnomer.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Fascism

* The adulation of a single charismatic national leader said to possess near superhuman abilities and to be the truest representation of the ideals of the national culture, whose will should therefore literally be law

* Emphasis on the absolute necessity of complete national unity, which is said to require a very powerful and disciplined state organization (especially an extensive secret police and censorship apparatus), unlimited by constitutional restrictions or legal requirements and under the absolute domination of the leader and his political movement or party

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt2yGzHfy7s]Obama Civilian Security - YouTube[/ame]


Contempt for the US Constitution and the limits it places on the federal government

* Glorification of physical strength, fanatical personal loyalty to the leader, and general combat-readiness as the ultimate personal virtues

Ask any USMB Lib about "You didn't build that" see if the response isn't fanatical devotion to Obama

* A sophisticated apparatus for systematically propagandizing the population into accepting these values and ideas through skilled manipulation of the mass media, which are totally monopolized by the regime once the movement comes to power

With the exception of Fox news and the editorial page of the WSJ, the old media (TV and newspapers) is now the state controlled media. Attack Watch and Fight the Smears ware very Hitler-like.

* A propensity toward pursuing a militaristic and aggressive foreign policy

Libya, Egypt, etc.

* Strict regulation and control of the economy by the regime through some form of corporatist economic planning in which the legal forms of private ownership of industry are nominally preserved but in which both workers and capitalists are obliged to submit their plans and objectives to the most detailed state regulation and extensive wage and price controls, which are designed to insure the priority of the political leadership's objectives over the private economic interests of the citizenry. Therefore under fascism most of the more important markets are allowed to operate only in a non-competitive, cartelized, and governmentally "rigged" fashion.

Dodd Frank, TARP, UAW bailout, ObamaCare

 

[bripat9643]

That's all utter horseshit. The left-right paradigm has to do with economics. If you favor socialism and government control of the economy, you're a leftist. If you oppose that, you're on the right.

All the claims you have made are non falsifiable. That's why leftists often use such arguments to support their idiocy. They can never be proven one way or the other.

Hegal is not on the right. He's a leftist. Most philosophers support leftism of one variety or another.

I respect the fact that the OP is humane and trying to get at the ideas.

The Right overlaps pretty significantly with Fascist doctrine.

The theories behind the Right's "Borders, Language, Culture" could have come directly from the völkisch movement, which itself privileged the organic structure of society over theoretical abstractions of fairness, justice, and equality.

Things to consider: Hitler's opposition to the French Revolution and the multiculturalism/tolerance of Enlightenment Liberalism. (Think cosmopolitanism. Think "Rights of Man" as a way of leveling cultural differences in favor of what all men shared, namely "Reason". Consider that many of the Enlightenment thinkers thought religion and tradition were superstitions or anachronisms. This is in contrast to the Right, which sees tradition as the lifeblood of a nation, something to be preserved, celebrated, imposed.)

The OP is urged to research what Hitler meant by the term "the Real Germany".

(Consider what is meant when the Right calls the Left anti-American? This slur assumes that there is one true America, and one true group of real Americans, which is in stark contrast to the pluralism and relativism on the Left. Fascism and the Right hold that there is one true identity for the nation)

The OP is urged to research Hitler's feelings about German language, religion and tradition - all which he thought were weakened by Germany's over-assimilation of non-Germans, mostly Jews.

Preserving the one true language and one true set of values and one true tradition is Fascism. And it is the essence Conservatism. (We should approach the theory of fascism intellectually rather than as a political football used by Rush Limbaugh. The theory is far less dramatic than our media sources have lead us to believe. Hegel - a widely respected philosopher on the Right - sounds like he is defending/espousing fascism in his theory of the state)

One of Hitler's biggest enemies was Liberal tolerance. He believed that an external contagion was threatening the real Germany. His second biggest enemy were the Russians. These obsessions were married inside another favorite obsession, "Jewish Bolshevism". He was inl agreement with was the Right about wanting to protect the real Germany from "outside" contagions and outside forces.

Hitler and the Right were threatened by the way the French Revolution was leveling Europe with its abstract universalism - he thought he was losing the real Germany.

Hitler was in lock-step with the Right over his criticism of Weimar. Too liberal. Too tolerant.

Hitler appealed to conservatives who wanted to preserve tradition in the face of outside forces which he believed were destroying it. His appeal came from the Right. He was a defender of German tradition against the things he thought were destroying it. He was purely on the Right, at least rhetorically. He was obviously not Libertarian like American Right. Remember: Reagan collapsed the difference between Libertarian and Conservative because business needed a populism. But I digress. I appreciate that the OP has attempted to start a discussion rather than merely flaming. This is commendable and I thank him. And yes, at the end of the day there is a big difference between Adolf Hitler and Edmund Burke. However, it is well worth pointing out that Hitler was on the Right, whatever those differences may be.

 

[bripat9643]

Facts are facts. It doesn't matter who the source of the facts is.

Dictionaries are written by liberals. Anything in them that is even remotely political is bullshit.

So which is it?

Are facts facts regardless of the source, or only when they appear on illiterate blogs?

Your definition isn't a fact. You resorted to a logical fallacy again: the appeal to authority, and your authority is biased. So what's your basis for claiming the definition is a fact? Absolutely nothing.