Fascism and the left wing

[Saigon]

"Right wing" Fascism is COMPLETELY subjective

If the definitions of communism as being left wing and conservatism as being right wing are not subjective - why would fascism be any different?

Again, this is NOT subjective, and not a matter of opinion.

It is simply a matter of fact, and funnily enough one you can check in almost any dictionary.

The posters opposing dictionaries are: Frank, Sniper, SunniMan, BritPat and BigReb.

I think the names in that list say an awful lot about the position they hold, as well.

 

[bripat9643]

(Consider what is meant when the Right calls the Left anti-American? This slur assumes that there is one true America, and one true group of real Americans, which is in stark contrast to the pluralism and relativism on the Left. Fascism and the Right hold that there is one true identity for the nation)

These are good points, Londoner.

The OP is urged to research Hitler's feelings about German language, religion and tradition - all which he thought were weakened by Germany's over-assimilation of non-Germans, mostly Jews.

Yes, I think that is key, and also something which we can extend across many other right wing regimes.

The rhetoric of Pinochet, Rioss Monte, Cristiani and Fujimori Fujimori are relies very heavily on the concept of traditional values and tradition.

Religion and tradition have nothing to do with the left/right paradigm. It's an economic issue. If you believe in socialism, you're on the left. If you oppose socialism, you're on the right.

Hitler was a socialist. End of story.

 

[Saigon]

It looks to me like the thread is going to be spammed a lot now by the anti-dictionary tribe, but I will still answer any on-topic replies as best I can.

 

[bripat9643]

You pump out so much bullshit it would take entire books to refute all of it. Everything in your post is a damn lie.

Below is cut from a description of fascism. Sounds more like the democratic party and the liberal left to me.

snippet:

" Where socialism sought totalitarian control of a society’s economic processes through direct state operation of the means of production, fascism sought that control indirectly, through domination of nominally private owners. Where socialism nationalized property explicitly, fascism did so implicitly, by requiring owners to use their property in the “national interest”—that is, as the autocratic authority conceived it. (Nevertheless, a few industries were operated by the state.) Where socialism abolished all market relations outright, fascism left the appearance of market relations while planning all economic activities. Where socialism abolished money and prices, fascism controlled the monetary system and set all prices and wages politically. In doing all this, fascism denatured the marketplace. Entrepreneurship was abolished. State ministries, rather than consumers, determined what was produced and under what conditions. "

Fascism: The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics | Library of Economics and Liberty

Actually, the American Right has unwittingly evolved into a statist monopoly protectorate. Consider Health Insurance, Oil or the Pharmaceuticals -- all of whom have senators in place to block any reform on their control of markets. These sectors fund elections and staff government for the purpose of creating a dynamic state sector which protects large corporations from market discipline. They have paid for extremely protectionist policies when it comes to the suppliers, but harsh market discipline for labor, which must compete globally. The right supports a very powerful subsidy system where the tax payer covers the costs.

Study the 2003 GOP Drug Bill. The market was abolished and the common man fooled. The mainstream Right may be rhetorically against intervention, but in practice they have been more interventionist than the Left by a long shot. Study K Street. The Right has handed the economy to large, unaccountable monopolies. In states like Iowa there are only two providers who have an anti-trust no-compete clause. This allows them to raise rates without losing customers. Same thing with cable providers. Cox and Charter have divided up states like California so they don't have to compete; so they don't have to invest in costly innovations to retain customers. These companies pour trillions into the GOP so they can avoid market discipline. C'mon People. Has anyone studied the methods of the Hammer (Delay)?

And what do the corporations who own government do with their profits? They pour them into talk radio which convinces well meaning idiots that any attempt to break up these monopolies is socialism. Everyone knows this, save the people who listen to talk radio.

 

[Saigon]

So what's your basis for claiming the definition is a fact? Absolutely nothing.

The last 60 years of political sciences - basically all dictionaries, encyclopedias, academics and books on the topic, some of which have already been cited.

On the other side of the debate we thus far have one illiterate blog.

 

[SniperFire]

It looks to me like the thread is going to be spammed a lot now by the anti-dictionary tribe, but I will still answer any on-topic replies as best I can.

Cool.

Would you agree that the 'centre' on your infographic represents the crossover between Communism and Fascism?

 

[Dissent]

Fascism is both parties...there is no left or right there is Tyranny and Freedom and I don't see much Freedom from either party.

Signed Your Local AnCap.

 

[OODA_Loop]

"Right wing" Fascism is COMPLETELY subjective

If the definitions of communism as being left wing and conservatism as being right wing are not subjective - why would fascism be any different?

Sure they are.

Political ideology constantly evolves to meet the present circumstance.

It has to change from what it was to keep relevant.

 

[bripat9643]

There's no such thing as right wing fascism. That would be like calling socialism "right wing." The term is an oxymoron.

Radical left wing fascism is quite apparent in history in places like USSR and China.

As is right wing fascism, as evident in Hitlarian Germany, Franco's Spain and Mussolini's Italy.

The above uses the word FASCISM to mean AUTHORITARIANISM, naturally.

A misuse of the word, fascism, in my opinion, but I'm using the word here like so many people commonly use the word...to mean a really oppressive government.

FWIW fascism MEANS corporate control over government.

That is SPECIFICALLY what the word actually means.

 

[Saigon]

If you oppose socialism, you're on the right.

Now you are getting it, Bripat - excellent!

"The streets of our country are in turmoil. The universities are filled with students rebelling and rioting. Communists are seeking to destroy our country. Russia is threatening us with her might, and the Republic is in danger. Yes - danger from within and without. We need law and order! Without it our nation cannot survive."

In view of the complete subordination of the present State to Marxism, the National Socialist Movement feels all the more bound not only to prepare the way for the triumph of its idea by appealing to the reason and understanding of the public but also to take upon itself the responsibility of organizing its own defence against the terror of the International, which is intoxicated with its own victory.

In this way the struggle against the present State was placed on a higher plane than that of petty revenge and small conspiracies. It was elevated to the level of a spiritual struggle on behalf of a WELTANSCHAUUNG, for the destruction of Marxism in all its shapes and forms.

In the years 1913 and 1914 I expressed my opinion for the first time in various circles, some of which are now members of the National Socialist Movement, that the problem of how the future of the German nation can be secured is the problem of how Marxism can be exterminated.

Adolf Hitler's political views - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Saigon]

It looks to me like the thread is going to be spammed a lot now by the anti-dictionary tribe, but I will still answer any on-topic replies as best I can.

Cool.

Would you agree that the 'centre' on your infographic represents the crossover between Communism and Fascism?

No, it represents the ideological distance between the two.

Note that they are closer to each other than they are to the centre - but note also that there is a gap between them.

 

[SniperFire]

Also, Saigon, since it is obvious that the 'centre' on your infographic represents the crossover between Communism and Fascism, would you agree that the nearly identical marketing campaigns of the Nazi's and Communists were imploring the fence sitters to choose one side or the other?

 

[Saigon]

"Right wing" Fascism is COMPLETELY subjective

If the definitions of communism as being left wing and conservatism as being right wing are not subjective - why would fascism be any different?

Sure they are.

Political ideology constantly evolves to meet the present circumstance.

It has to change from what it was to keep relevant.

So we may see right wing communists somewhere, or left wing conservatives?

I agree that worlds eviolve, but somehow I don't think quite so much.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Simple question for you, wad catcher.

Were Nazis authoritarian central planners, or not?

Therein is your problem, seeking simple answers to complex issues is ridiculous (which characterizes most if not all of your posts).

First, define "central planners"; I suspect you have no idea.

 

[SniperFire]

It looks to me like the thread is going to be spammed a lot now by the anti-dictionary tribe, but I will still answer any on-topic replies as best I can.

Cool.

Would you agree that the 'centre' on your infographic represents the crossover between Communism and Fascism?

No, it represents the ideological distance between the two.

Note that they are closer to each other than they are to the centre - but note also that there is a gap between them.

Wrong. Try again.

The nearly identical campaign advertising proves they were vying for the identical audience.

 

[Saigon]

Also, Saigon, since it is obvious that the 'centre' on your infographic represents the crossover between Communism and Fascism, would you agree that the nearly identical marketing campaigns of the Nazi's and Communists were imploring the fence sitters to choose one side or the other?

As I suggested earlier, I think there is very little chance that you could understand the issues involved here, and even less chance you could debate them honestly.

 

[bripat9643]

You're a classic example of left wing morons who have been swallowing the propaganda since childhood and don't know what the hell they are talking about. Corporations didn't control Nazi Germany or fascist Italy. The idea that Hitler took orders from corporations is too absurd for words. It's the other way around. Fascism is where the government makes all the important business decisions for corporations. The Democrat Party is the perfect example of fascism. They want to regulate corporations to the point where CEOs become little more than factory managers who take orders from government bureaucrats.

Wiseacre -

As you can see from the graphic, the extreme left and extreme right are closer to each other than they are to the centre.

Bein in Nazi Germany no doubt felt more like being in Communist Russia than it did like the US or EU today.

But this does not mean they are the same - there are very key differences, as explained in the OP.

Conservatism champions small government, but the further to the right you go, the larger the government will be. All very powerful right wing governments - Franco, Antonescu, Hitler, Pinochet, Cristiani - have had massive bureacracies.

The right is for individual rights, less taxes, less regulations, and smaller gov't - all of which is the polar opposite of fascism. Fascism is all about total gov't control, the exact antithapy of the right; instead, it is the goal of the left. Can't see how you can possibly say the far right wants more gov't than the center right does, that makes no sense. Actually, it's the other way around, have you not heard of the Tea Party groups, who are demanding smaller and less intrusive gov't? These guys are not the center right, not even close.

Any kind of huge gov't with a large bureaucracy is by definiton a left wing gov't, with total or near total control of the citizenry. The far right wants the exact opposite, NO gov't control or very little, with an emphasis on individual liberties and rights. Such as property rights, do you think any of those regimes you mentioned allowed much in the way of property rights? NO - in each case the gov't made all the decisions about who gets what. NOBODY on the right, no matter how extreme you get, wants that.

You are a classic example of most right wing nutz I know personally and the bs they'll/you'll swallow and TRY and pass it off as fact. Just imagine how wrong you are on other important issues!?! lol

Let me simple it down for you seeing as you want to buck, facts, history, etc. Fascism=corporate/elitist run gov.......both of which are minority's and DOES NOT equal a democracy=majority "We The People" run gov.

 

[SniperFire]

Simple question for you, wad catcher.

Were Nazis authoritarian central planners, or not?

Therein is your problem, seeking simple answers to complex issues is ridiculous (which characterizes most if not all of your posts).

First, define "central planners"; I suspect you have no idea.

Are you saying that the Nazi were NOT authoritarian central planners?

You are being unclear.

Why is it so difficult to answer such a simple question?

 

[SniperFire]

Also, Saigon, since it is obvious that the 'centre' on your infographic represents the crossover between Communism and Fascism, would you agree that the nearly identical marketing campaigns of the Nazi's and Communists were imploring the fence sitters to choose one side or the other?

As I suggested earlier, I think there is very little chance that you could understand the issues involved here, and even less chance you could debate them honestly.

Again, you simply refuse to address the simple question put to you.

Are you enjoying your bitch-slapping? We are!


LOL

 

[bripat9643]

Spot on and well written! Although I like to write, I have never been good at it. You put down in black and white EXACTLY how I have seen it for almost 3 decades. Good to read someone has similar views that are really indisputable. Mega-anything is bad for any nation.

Londoner is a communist, so its not surprising that a moron like you would approve of his propaganda.