Fascism and the left wing

[Saigon]

Of all the weird claims made on this board, the one that has stunned me the most is posters claiming that Fascism is right wing.

So far I've seen two posters suggest this, which is to my mind one very odd belief.

So this thread is about the theories which define Fascism, and how we know that it is right wing.

Key differences between Fascism and Communism:

1) Class. Fascism is based on support from the middle and upper classes. Whereas communism relies on support by workers and the idea of smashing classes, Fascism intends to strengthen the class system. Hitler promised the middle and upper classes enormous wealth, and sought to deliver by channeling government contracts into private firms, thus delivering massive windfalls to share holders. Although workers suported Hitler, he did not rely on their support as much of those of the elite. Hitler also chose people like philosopher Martin Heidigger and architect Albert Speer to appeal to elite groups in society.

2) Capital. Communism seeks to do away with money, Fascism seeks to channel it. Hitler and Franco both sought to make their supporters rich through their private businesses, destroying competition and removing laws which impeded their growth.

3) Ethnicity. Whereas Lenin promoted Jews and even Stalin maintained the 'One Nation, Many Peoples' concept, Fascists like Antonescu and Hitler sought to destroy minority races and maintain racial putiry. Within the Soviet inner circle there were Armenians, Jews, Azeris and Georgians, in no Fascist country could this ever take place.

 

[Sallow]

Fascism is right wing. So is theocracy, monarchy, oligarchy, aristocracy, plutocracy, corporatism and military rule.

 

[Wiseacre]

Don't know where the graph came from, but it's bogus. Fascism/nazism are about gov't control, something the right is absolutely against. The right is for the opposite, smaller and less intrusive gov't. Any kind of totalitarianism is a far left form of gov't. The extreme right is for as little gov't as possible or no gov't at all. IOW, anarchy.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Of all the weird claims made on this board, the one that has stunned me the most is posters claiming that Fascism is right wing.

So far I've seen two posters suggest this, which is to my mind one very odd belief.

So this thread is about the theories which define Fascism, and how we know that it is right wing.

Key differences between Fascism and Communism:

1) Class. Fascism is based on support from the middle and upper classes. Whereas communism relies on support by workers and the idea of smashing classes, Fascism intends to strengthen the class system. Hitler promised the middle and upper classes enormous wealth, and sought to deliver by channeling government contracts into private firms, thus delivering massive windfalls to share holders. Although workers suported Hitler, he did not rely on their support as much of those of the elite. Hitler also chose people like philosopher Martin Heidigger and architect Albert Speer to appeal to elite groups in society.

2) Capital. Communism seeks to do away with money, Fascism seeks to channel it. Hitler and Franco both sought to make their supporters rich through their private businesses, destroying competition and removing laws which impeded their growth.

3) Ethnicity. Whereas Lenin promoted Jews and even Stalin maintained the 'One Nation, Many Peoples' concept, Fascists like Antonescu and Hitler sought to destroy minority races and maintain racial putiry. Within the Soviet inner circle there were Armenians, Jews, Azeris and Georgians, in no Fascist country could this ever take place.

You’ll need to edit the bolded to match the rest of your post and graph.

Yes, Fascism in on the right side of the political spectrum; to suggest fascism is ‘left wing’ is ignorant idiocy.

 

[Saigon]

Don't know where the graph came from, but it's bogus. Fascism/nazism are about gov't control, something the right is absolutely against. The right is for the opposite, smaller and less intrusive gov't. Any kind of totalitarianism is a far left form of gov't. The extreme right is for as little gov't as possible or no gov't at all. IOW, anarchy.

No, the graphic is absolutely correct.

The desire for small govenrment is more in the middle of the right wing side, halfway between centrism and fascism.

What we might call Objectivism is a long way from Fascism, but also a fair distance from Centrism.

 

[Sallow]

Don't know where the graph came from, but it's bogus. Fascism/nazism are about gov't control, something the right is absolutely against. The right is for the opposite, smaller and less intrusive gov't. Any kind of totalitarianism is a far left form of gov't. The extreme right is for as little gov't as possible or no gov't at all. IOW, anarchy.

That's bullshit.

The right seeks a powerful central government which is homogeneous, rooted in tradition and religion.

 

[AmyNation]

Faciam is extreme right with communism being extreme left.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Don't know where the graph came from, but it's bogus. Fascism/nazism are about gov't control, something the right is absolutely against. The right is for the opposite, smaller and less intrusive gov't. Any kind of totalitarianism is a far left form of gov't. The extreme right is for as little gov't as possible or no gov't at all. IOW, anarchy.

That's bullshit.

The right seeks a powerful central government which is homogeneous, rooted in tradition and religion.

Correct.

The right, as with fascism, also works to stifle dissent, is fearful of diversity, and demands conformity.

 

[francoHFW]

Don't know where the graph came from, but it's bogus. Fascism/nazism are about gov't control, something the right is absolutely against. The right is for the opposite, smaller and less intrusive gov't. Any kind of totalitarianism is a far left form of gov't. The extreme right is for as little gov't as possible or no gov't at all. IOW, anarchy.

Total Beckbot(?) idiocy. Duped AGAIN...

 

[Wiseacre]

Don't know where the graph came from, but it's bogus. Fascism/nazism are about gov't control, something the right is absolutely against. The right is for the opposite, smaller and less intrusive gov't. Any kind of totalitarianism is a far left form of gov't. The extreme right is for as little gov't as possible or no gov't at all. IOW, anarchy.

That's bullshit.

The right seeks a powerful central government which is homogeneous, rooted in tradition and religion.

That's bullshit.

 

[Wiseacre]

Below is cut from a description of fascism. Sounds more like the democratic party and the liberal left to me.

snippet:

" Where socialism sought totalitarian control of a society’s economic processes through direct state operation of the means of production, fascism sought that control indirectly, through domination of nominally private owners. Where socialism nationalized property explicitly, fascism did so implicitly, by requiring owners to use their property in the “national interest”—that is, as the autocratic authority conceived it. (Nevertheless, a few industries were operated by the state.) Where socialism abolished all market relations outright, fascism left the appearance of market relations while planning all economic activities. Where socialism abolished money and prices, fascism controlled the monetary system and set all prices and wages politically. In doing all this, fascism denatured the marketplace. Entrepreneurship was abolished. State ministries, rather than consumers, determined what was produced and under what conditions. "

Fascism: The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics | Library of Economics and Liberty

 

[Saigon]

Wiseacre -

As you can see from the graphic, the extreme left and extreme right are closer to each other than they are to the centre.

Bein in Nazi Germany no doubt felt more like being in Communist Russia than it did like the US or EU today.

But this does not mean they are the same - there are very key differences, as explained in the OP.

Conservatism champions small government, but the further to the right you go, the larger the government will be. All very powerful right wing governments - Franco, Antonescu, Hitler, Pinochet, Cristiani - have had massive bureacracies.

 

[Saigon]

Don't know where the graph came from, but it's bogus. Fascism/nazism are about gov't control, something the right is absolutely against. The right is for the opposite, smaller and less intrusive gov't. Any kind of totalitarianism is a far left form of gov't. The extreme right is for as little gov't as possible or no gov't at all. IOW, anarchy.

That's bullshit.

The right seeks a powerful central government which is homogeneous, rooted in tradition and religion.

That's bullshit.

His comment is true for the Extreme Right - but not true for the Centre Right.

 

[AmyNation]

Try googling "fascism on the political spectrum". Its not really a debatable thing, its a fact.

 

[Sallow]

Don't know where the graph came from, but it's bogus. Fascism/nazism are about gov't control, something the right is absolutely against. The right is for the opposite, smaller and less intrusive gov't. Any kind of totalitarianism is a far left form of gov't. The extreme right is for as little gov't as possible or no gov't at all. IOW, anarchy.

That's bullshit.

The right seeks a powerful central government which is homogeneous, rooted in tradition and religion.

That's bullshit.

No it's not. The nazi party had the full backing of the pope and German Christians.

The tirade against jews that been one fo the driving forces of Christianity didn't begin or end with Hitler.

Nazi Germany was a conservative utopia.

 

[Wiseacre]

Wiseacre -

As you can see from the graphic, the extreme left and extreme right are closer to each other than they are to the centre.

Bein in Nazi Germany no doubt felt more like being in Communist Russia than it did like the US or EU today.

But this does not mean they are the same - there are very key differences, as explained in the OP.

Conservatism champions small government, but the further to the right you go, the larger the government will be. All very powerful right wing governments - Franco, Antonescu, Hitler, Pinochet, Cristiani - have had massive bureacracies.

The right is for individual rights, less taxes, less regulations, and smaller gov't - all of which is the polar opposite of fascism. Fascism is all about total gov't control, the exact antithapy of the right; instead, it is the goal of the left. Can't see how you can possibly say the far right wants more gov't than the center right does, that makes no sense. Actually, it's the other way around, have you not heard of the Tea Party groups, who are demanding smaller and less intrusive gov't? These guys are not the center right, not even close.

Any kind of huge gov't with a large bureaucracy is by definiton a left wing gov't, with total or near total control of the citizenry. The far right wants the exact opposite, NO gov't control or very little, with an emphasis on individual liberties and rights. Such as property rights, do you think any of those regimes you mentioned allowed much in the way of property rights? NO - in each case the gov't made all the decisions about who gets what. NOBODY on the right, no matter how extreme you get, wants that.

 

[francoHFW]

Try googling "fascism on the political spectrum". Its not really a debatable thing, its a fact.

Tell that to Beck and the author of "Liberal Fascism" and a lot of idiot dupes....

 

[Sallow]

Wiseacre -

As you can see from the graphic, the extreme left and extreme right are closer to each other than they are to the centre.

Bein in Nazi Germany no doubt felt more like being in Communist Russia than it did like the US or EU today.

But this does not mean they are the same - there are very key differences, as explained in the OP.

Conservatism champions small government, but the further to the right you go, the larger the government will be. All very powerful right wing governments - Franco, Antonescu, Hitler, Pinochet, Cristiani - have had massive bureacracies.

The right is for individual rights, less taxes, less regulations, and smaller gov't - all of which is the polar opposite of fascism. Fascism is all about total gov't control, the exact antithapy of the right; instead, it is the goal of the left. Can't see how you can possibly say the far right wants more gov't than the center right does, that makes no sense. Actually, it's the other way around, have you not heard of the Tea Party groups, who are demanding smaller and less intrusive gov't? These guys are not the center right, not even close.

Any kind of huge gov't with a large bureaucracy is by definiton a left wing gov't, with total or near total control of the citizenry. The far right wants the exact opposite, NO gov't control or very little, with an emphasis on individual liberties and rights. Such as property rights, do you think any of those regimes you mentioned allowed much in the way of property rights? NO - in each case the gov't made all the decisions about who gets what. NOBODY on the right, no matter how extreme you get, wants that.

 

[Middleoftheroad]

Wiseacre -

As you can see from the graphic, the extreme left and extreme right are closer to each other than they are to the centre.

Bein in Nazi Germany no doubt felt more like being in Communist Russia than it did like the US or EU today.

But this does not mean they are the same - there are very key differences, as explained in the OP.

Conservatism champions small government, but the further to the right you go, the larger the government will be. All very powerful right wing governments - Franco, Antonescu, Hitler, Pinochet, Cristiani - have had massive bureacracies.

The right is for individual rights, less taxes, less regulations, and smaller gov't - all of which is the polar opposite of fascism. Fascism is all about total gov't control, the exact antithapy of the right; instead, it is the goal of the left. Can't see how you can possibly say the far right wants more gov't than the center right does, that makes no sense. Actually, it's the other way around, have you not heard of the Tea Party groups, who are demanding smaller and less intrusive gov't? These guys are not the center right, not even close.

Any kind of huge gov't with a large bureaucracy is by definiton a left wing gov't, with total or near total control of the citizenry. The far right wants the exact opposite, NO gov't control or very little, with an emphasis on individual liberties and rights. Such as property rights, do you think any of those regimes you mentioned allowed much in the way of property rights? NO - in each case the gov't made all the decisions about who gets what. NOBODY on the right, no matter how extreme you get, wants that.

By your definition, when is the last time we had a right wing president? It surely wasnt either of the Bushes or Reagan, since all three expanded the government.

 

[Saigon]

Can't see how you can possibly say the far right wants more gov't than the center right does, that makes no sense.

It it because there is such a huge gap between the end of what we might call democratic conservatism (Tea Party, Libertarians) and the beginning of the more militaristic and nationalist right wing parties.

Likewise, there is a huge gap between Social Democrats and the more militaristic left wing parties.

The ideology of the right wing - conservatism, nationalism/patriotism, belief in unfettered capitalism, intolerance of minorities - is what all right wing groups have in common.

But whether they choose to impose that by force is what separates out centre from the extreme right.

We can put names and parties to all of these positions, so that going from the centre out we might have:

David Cameron - Romney/McCain - Reagan/Tea Party - Thatcher - Netanyahu - Pinochet - Hitler

and on the left:

Truman - Clinton/Tony Blair/Obama - Francois Hollande - Ortega/Allende - Lenin - Stalin/Mao

(This is fairly subjective, of course!)