F35 - superfighter or lame duck?

[Pain&Progress]

Pentagon?s big budget F-35 fighter ?can?t turn, can?t climb, can?t run? | The Great Debate

Pentagon’s big budget F-35 fighter ‘can’t turn, can’t climb, can’t run’

Is there a serious problem, or just the press hunting for a story?

Seems like the only thing the critics of the F-35 know about military airpower is fighter vs. fighter dog fighting; but there’s a lot more to it than that.

One of the lessons learned they love to point out is that we didn’t have fighters designed to dogfight when we entered the Vietnam War, and they are correct. What they don’t explain is why. A war with the Soviets at the time was all about nuclear exchange and who can take the other side’s cities and their ability to wage war while protecting their own cities. Fighters were not considered a threat to the US because they don’t have the range to reach us. Russian bombers flying over the North Pole was the real threat for fighters of the time so they were optimized for intercepting bombers. They could get up to altitude quickly and were fast so that they could intercept the incoming bombers as far away as possible. They were designed to a purpose.

The F-35 is also designed to a purpose. The advancement of surface to air missile technology has made penetration of enemy controlled airspace costly and problematic, and the US battle strategy is dependent on establishing air superiority. Current US aircraft can’t penetrate air defense zones without getting shot out of the sky. But with the F-35 the scenario is: 1. The F-22’s move in and sweep the area of enemy fighters. 2. The F-35’s swoop in and take out the air defense installations, detect enemy locations, and transmit them to friendly forces. 3. Cruise missiles and traditional aircraft such as the F-15E, F-16, A-10, Apache’s, etc. come in and wreak havoc on the enemy forces. 4. Ground operations begin. Without the F-35 we have a hole in our order of battle.

When it comes to other fighters the F-35 tactic is not to get into a turning dogfight but rather to use its ability to detect the other guy first and engage him with long range missiles before the F-35 is detected. Admittedly a flaw of the F-35 is that it is dependent on stealth, sensor, and missile technology in order to engage other aircraft; it’s basically a flying antiaircraft battery. The solution is to adopt F-22 technology for the F-35 but this would make the F-35 too expensive to purchase in the numbers that they are needed.

At its heart the F-35 is a penetration and strike fighter.

 

[RubberGloveSeduction]

Thats all been refuted.......2018 at earliest........

Have you ever been right about anything? Like... ever?

USAF declaring IOC Aug 2 2016. Dumbfuck.

 

[Kristian]

Thats all been refuted.......2018 at earliest........

Have you ever been right about anything? Like... ever?

USAF declaring IOC Aug 2 2016. Dumbfuck.

2018 U.S. earliest sell ot outlandish countries.

2024-2037 U.S. sell massive to home country. 2300 pieces of the F-35's.

 

[Kristian]

And big money talk by 1 pieces air craft.

 

[Kristian]

Who than selfy and Which are the U.S. sell F-35's to in world's.

Give my fact any.

 

[Kristian]

F-35 fighters combat ready, Air Force says - CNNPolitics.com

Ready for action these F-35's.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

F-35 fighters combat ready, Air Force says - CNNPolitics.com

Ready for action these F-35's.

Don't confuse them with facts. It's an unfair way to debate.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Who than selfy and Which are the U.S. sell F-35's to in world's.

Give my fact any.

It's been traditional for the rest of the world to wait until the USAF announces a bird as operational before they buy. That just happened today.

 

[RubberGloveSeduction]

Unfortunately there is no reason to dogfight the F-35 since every other fighter flys higher merely shoot it down

This post has logic one would expect from a 12 year old. Following along, we can assume you believe a MIG-25 merely flies higher to shoot down a F-22. Of course a MIG-29 just flies higher to shoot down a F-16, but damn someone forgot to tell all those MIG-29 pilots that were shot down by F-16s that our keyboard warrior Manonthestreet has figured it all out.

Maybe you can walk us through this scenario. There must be some reality where Russian fighters cruise along happily at 60k, probably at full afterburners since retards like you get all giddy about top speed as well. Nevermind statistics on air-to-air kills showing they happen much lower and at transonic speeds we'll go with your max altitude SU-30 pretending to be a SR-71 for whatever reason. Your plane, with inferior radar and sensors detects an F-35 which is by actual recent pilot accounts so stealthy they have difficulty training avoidance, gets in position to fire a missile which the F-35 with the best passive sensors of any aircraft in the world doesn't see coming. Splash one F-35.

Reality check = F-35 sees any 4th gen fighter from way outside their own detection range, moves into position for optimal shot, and the first indication the Flanker has of F-35 is in the area is the warning that a rapidly closing AMRAAM just went active. In your high-and-fast fantasy the Flanker pilot's turn radius will be about the size of Texas so their first and only option is dive or die. If they do escape AMRAAM #1 the maneuvers they used will put them in such a kinetic disadvantage when the second AMRAAM arrives they are cooked.

Your stupidity in this thread knows no bounds.

Of course it is possible for F-35s to be shot down by 4th gen aircraft, but to imply superior max altitude or top speed outweighs all the advantages the F-35 of VLO and sensors is just naive, and the more pilots are actually in the seat using the plane the more we hear confirmation of this.

 

[RubberGloveSeduction]

See ya still have nothing but your uninformed bs....yeah all my links, how many now....20-30...... all from questionable sources...... Lllmmmaaaoooo

Some people can't see past a good sales pitch. Math doesn't lie.

Uninformed? Your links? Math? Funny how you've suddenly lost interest in this thread as F-35s become operational and more pilots actually flying it are proving what a gibbering idiot you were. Dozens of posts from you about how this plane won't be able to perform, isn't stealthy, can't fight, can't run, etc. your history in this thread makes you look like the biggest fool on the internet.

Here is your latest serving of crow, via survey of 31 fighter pilots who unlike the armchair experts in your blog links actually fly the F-35. Eat up fool. Manonthestreet

Heritage Foundation: Operational Assessment of the F-35A

Each pilot was then asked to select which fight-er he would rather fly in combat if he were to face alone flying the other jet in six different air-to-air situations. (See Chart 2.) If the pilot selected an F-15C in a short-range setup, for example, he felt he could outperform a pilot of equal abilities in the F-35A. Pilots selected the F-35A 100 percent of the time in beyond-visual-range situations and over 80 percent of dogfighting situations where energy and maneuverability are critical to success.The F-35A was not designed to be an air superiority fighter, but the pilots interviewed conveyed the picture of a jet that will more than hold its own in that environment—even with its current G and maneuver restrictions. In the words of an F-16C Weapons School Graduate and instructor pilot now flying the F-35A, “Even pre-IOC, this jet has exceeded pilot expectations for dissimilar combat. (It is) G-limited now, but even with that, the pedal turns are incredible and deliver a constant28 degrees/second. When they open up the CLAW, and remove the (7) G-restrictions, this jet will be eye watering.”

Nor would other fighters fare well if pitted against the F-35A in aerial combat. In an air-to-air BVR situation, the F-35 can locate and target every other combat-configured jet before their pilots become aware of the F-35’s presence. Even if one of the other fighters survived a BVR engagement, the external(un-jettisonable) pods, racks, and rails of each opponent would give a completely clean, combat-configured F-35A a distinct advantage.

Conclusion
The F-35 is an expensive platform, but it is notably more effective and in many cases cheaper than any other four-plus-generation multirole fighter in the world. No other nation’s fielded fighter would fare well in an engagement against the F-35, and no other multirole fighter currently on the market would survive, much less thrive, in a modern-day high-threat environment. The United States needs to fulfill the F-35A’s complete fielding and look at the concurrent development process that brought it to fruition as a model for similar rapidly growing systems and technologies.
- John Venable,
a former F-16C pilot with 3,000 hours of fighter time

 

[Daryl Hunt]

See ya still have nothing but your uninformed bs....yeah all my links, how many now....20-30...... all from questionable sources...... Lllmmmaaaoooo

Some people can't see past a good sales pitch. Math doesn't lie.

Uninformed? Your links? Math? Funny how you've suddenly lost interest in this thread as F-35s become operational and more pilots actually flying it are proving what a gibbering idiot you were. Dozens of posts from you about how this plane won't be able to perform, isn't stealthy, can't fight, can't run, etc. your history in this thread makes you look like the biggest fool on the internet.

Here is your latest serving of crow, via survey of 31 fighter pilots who unlike the armchair experts in your blog links actually fly the F-35. Eat up fool. Manonthestreet

Heritage Foundation: Operational Assessment of the F-35A

Each pilot was then asked to select which fight-er he would rather fly in combat if he were to face alone flying the other jet in six different air-to-air situations. (See Chart 2.) If the pilot selected an F-15C in a short-range setup, for example, he felt he could outperform a pilot of equal abilities in the F-35A. Pilots selected the F-35A 100 percent of the time in beyond-visual-range situations and over 80 percent of dogfighting situations where energy and maneuverability are critical to success.The F-35A was not designed to be an air superiority fighter, but the pilots interviewed conveyed the picture of a jet that will more than hold its own in that environment—even with its current G and maneuver restrictions. In the words of an F-16C Weapons School Graduate and instructor pilot now flying the F-35A, “Even pre-IOC, this jet has exceeded pilot expectations for dissimilar combat. (It is) G-limited now, but even with that, the pedal turns are incredible and deliver a constant28 degrees/second. When they open up the CLAW, and remove the (7) G-restrictions, this jet will be eye watering.”

Nor would other fighters fare well if pitted against the F-35A in aerial combat. In an air-to-air BVR situation, the F-35 can locate and target every other combat-configured jet before their pilots become aware of the F-35’s presence. Even if one of the other fighters survived a BVR engagement, the external(un-jettisonable) pods, racks, and rails of each opponent would give a completely clean, combat-configured F-35A a distinct advantage.

Conclusion
The F-35 is an expensive platform, but it is notably more effective and in many cases cheaper than any other four-plus-generation multirole fighter in the world. No other nation’s fielded fighter would fare well in an engagement against the F-35, and no other multirole fighter currently on the market would survive, much less thrive, in a modern-day high-threat environment. The United States needs to fulfill the F-35A’s complete fielding and look at the concurrent development process that brought it to fruition as a model for similar rapidly growing systems and technologies.
- John Venable,
a former F-16C pilot with 3,000 hours of fighter time

Just before the F-35A went operational, they removed the G restriction of 7 gees and now it's 9 gees. And 9 gees is about all a pilot can handle even with a G suit.

 

[Manonthestreet]

 

[Manonthestreet]

The Pentagon’s top weapons tester is once again sounding the alarm over the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), warning that significant deficiencies with the aircraft’s gun, challenges integrating the short-range AIM-9X missile and unresolved software bugs could delay fielding of the fighter’s full ... Weapons Tester Cites Further F-35 Challenges

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The Pentagon’s top weapons tester is once again sounding the alarm over the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), warning that significant deficiencies with the aircraft’s gun, challenges integrating the short-range AIM-9X missile and unresolved software bugs could delay fielding of the fighter’s full ... Weapons Tester Cites Further F-35 Challenges

I read that. It's hard to tell who is being quoted. Is it the tester or the author? The A and the B model passed all the criteria. The C is brand spanking new. It still has to prove itself. But the report from the carrier they are on is very promising. It hasn't been reported that the C has gone into weapons but it has passed with flying colors on landing, traps, and go arounds. It's been flawless.

As for the gun, ain't going to happen this year. Once again, you are taking the B and the C and badmouthing it because the gun isn't ready. Well,, the only one with the internal gun (the A) has already handled the gun tests including bagging drones. The A also scored 100% in the off bore sighted Aim-9X shots at drones.

The C is getting a chance to prove itself. And, as usual, your nay sayers are eating crow.

 

[RubberGloveSeduction]

Except you can't. Cause not stealthy .....not to mention only plane that still trails black smoke is B-52 because of old engines.

You poor naive idiot. We'll just keep serving you crow:

Vicious cycle: F-35A continues 5th-gen tradition of bullying legacy aircraft

Van Roo has been flying the F-16 since 2001 and as red air during Northern Lightning for 13 years. Red air is a formation of aircraft acting as the enemy for air-to-air tactics training.
“For us, as a capable fourth-generation fighter, we are used to being able to see and counter most adversaries that we have out there when we are playing red air,” Van Roo said. “Versus the F-35 it’s completely different. The most difficult thing is we just can’t see them like they can see us. It can feel like you are out there with a blindfold on trying to find someone in a huge space. We have been reliant on visual pickups of the aircraft only, which is extremely difficult to do, and at those ranges we are already dead before we could shoot back.”

Hmmm who to believe on F-35's stealth, an F-16 pilot flying against it or the armchair aviator Manonthestreet who has so wisely informed us it isn't stealthy and can't fight?

Manonthestreet

 

[Manonthestreet]

As F-35 comes on line Air superiority disappears......oooooops But but it will shoot down everything before they even see it.....
The Looming Air Superiority Train Wreck

America is on track to lose air supremacy in contingencies involving near-peer air combat. Even as soon as next year, achieving air superiority in a war with China within a politically and operationally effective time frame might be doubtful. In a 2025 war, American aircraft losses are expected to be severe. In a 2030 war, the U.S. Air Force, after assessing currently funded improvement programs, now expects to no longer be able to win the air superiority battle.
This downward spiral matters. U.S. Air Force Lt. Gen. Mike Holmes observes: “Air superiority is the most important thing the Air Force provides for the joint force in the tactical environment.” If an air force can’t get you air superiority where and when it is needed, there may not a compelling argument for even having an air force. Gaining air superiority is an air force’s raison d’etre, and providing air superiority enables many other air, maritime, and land warfighting missions.

 

[Manonthestreet]

Why the F-35 could 'never in a million years' out dogfight the RAF Typhoon or the Russian Su-35
Why the F-35 could 'never in a million years' out dogfight the RAF Typhoon or the Russian Su-35

 

[Manonthestreet]

AF has 100 do nothing "fighters" alrdy............waiting for the next fix

 

[RubberGloveSeduction]

Well hey the armchair aviator has returned, and he's got more opinion pieces to counter what actual pilots who fly the F-35 or against F-35 say. Strangely his own link says:

"While every credible report indicates that the F-35 will dominate in stealthiness"

How to reconcile this with Manonthestreet's repeated claims that the F-35 isn't stealthy? Is Manonthestreet full of shit now, or was he full of shit then? He can't even keep track of his own lies.

 

[Manonthestreet]

Well hey the armchair aviator has returned, and he's got more opinion pieces to counter what actual pilots who fly the F-35 or against F-35 say. Strangely his own link says:

"While every credible report indicates that the F-35 will dominate in stealthiness"

How to reconcile this with Manonthestreet's repeated claims that the F-35 isn't stealthy? Is Manonthestreet full of shit now, or was he full of shit then? He can't even keep track of his own lies.

Got nothing do ya but your own opinion vs experts....gee who should we believe????