Zone1 Explaining Jesus to a Jew

[hobelim]

IDK----can you send me a few diamonds so I can CHECK?

Sure. I'll send you a few.

on 42nd st there will be a guy in a trench coat standing in an alley. Ask him "where's the beef."

Tell him Murry sent you.

 

[norwegen]

"apostate Judea"??? another jelly bean meme

Didn't you say you've read the New Testament?

How about the Old Testament? Surely, you know that God had already divorced Ephraim, and Judah was even less faithful than she was (Jer 3:8-11).

You're all meme.

 

[hobelim]

you know that God had already divorced Ephraim, and Judah was even less faithful than she was

Are you suggesting that the law against adultery isn't about sex? Brilliant!

That would seem to be the case since Jesus said 'only an adulterous generation seeks a sign.', which has nothing to do with sex.

 

[irosie91]

Didn't you say you've read the New Testament?

How about the Old Testament? Surely, you know that God had already divorced Ephraim, and Judah was even less faithful than she was (Jer 3:8-11).

You're all meme.

neuroscience is my field----it is a requirement for OT and NT ---even 101.
Jeremiah----in the past---ie prior to DSM 5---would have been diagnosed as
"neurotic" -----Ezekiel ---more like PSYCHOTIC ----based on the ancient DSM 3

 

[norwegen]

neuroscience is my field----it is a requirement for OT and NT ---even 101.
Jeremiah----in the past---ie prior to DSM 5---would have been diagnosed as
"neurotic" -----Ezekiel ---more like PSYCHOTIC ----based on the ancient DSM 3

 

[hobelim]

neuroscience is my field----it is a requirement for OT and NT ---even 101.
Jeremiah----in the past---ie prior to DSM 5---would have been diagnosed as
"neurotic" -----Ezekiel ---more like PSYCHOTIC ----based on the ancient DSM 3

So you do believe that your entire religion is based on the writings of the mentally ill. Wow.

You should have taken a creative writing class.

 

[irosie91]

So you do believe that your entire religion is based on the writings of the mentally ill. Wow.

You should have taken a creative writing class.

you are confused as to the term "MENTALLY ILL" Many brilliant people harbor
psychiatric conditions.

 

[hobelim]

you are confused as to the term "MENTALLY ILL" Many brilliant people harbor
psychiatric conditions.

So your conclusion about toxic delirium regarding the vision of Ezekiel was brilliance?

or psychosis?

Make up your mind.

 

[rosends]

First things first. One step at a time, little by little, and so back to the original proposition.

And then I saw four wheels beside the cherubim, one beside each cherub. The wheels radiating were sparkling like diamonds in the sun. All four wheels looked alike, each like a wheel within a wheel."

Is there any other way to see "sparkling like diamonds in the sun, without seeing colors?

one would see the sparkles, flashes of bright light

but regardless, one would see the sparkling - the color is a feature of that.

"see what it looks like, its appearance?"
"it see flashes of green!"

you are seeing both "green" and "appearance" but the initial word was "appearance". Same as in the text. Labeling the aspect of appearance as color is a logical next step focusing on one aspect of the appearance, but not a direct function of the word. That's why many commentators and translators don't limit it to color.

 

[rosends]

The word mar'eh is used many times in Genesis, often describing the appearance of a woman. Is it saying she has a beautiful color? It seems like "beautiful appearance" is a better understanding.

 

[hobelim]

The word mar'eh is used many times in Genesis, often describing the appearance of a woman. Is it saying she has a beautiful color? It seems like "beautiful appearance" is a better understanding.

Maybe so, but the question is about the appearance of the Ophanim. As I have shown they are covered in many colors, not eyes. "The wheels radiating were sparkling like diamonds in the sun." Ezekiel 10:15-21, not covered with eyeballs.

 

[hobelim]

one would see the sparkles, flashes of bright light

and colors.

I know that many extremely dedicated people have been hoping to see what the prophet saw for their entire lives. If they were hoping to see something covered with eyes, and never have, now at least they know why and what to look for.

In their mind.

 

[rosends]

Maybe so, but the question is about the appearance of the Ophanim. As I have shown they are covered in many colors, not eyes. "The wheels radiating were sparkling like diamonds in the sun." Ezekiel 10:15-21

You have shown that one can interpret the word to refer to colors.

 

[rosends]

and colors.

View attachment 812789

I know that many extremely dedicated people have been hoping to see what the prophet saw for their entire lives. If they were hoping to see something covered with eyes, now at least they know what to look for.

In their mind.

yes, AND (in some cases) colors.

 

[hobelim]

You have shown that one can interpret the word to refer to colors.

No. I have shown that the Ophanim are covered with many colors, not eyeballs.

"The wheels radiating were sparkling like diamonds in the sun."

"Diamonds in the sun" do not sparkle many eyeballs. They sparkle many colors.

 

[rosends]

No. I have shown that the Ophanim are covered with many colors, not eyeballs.

"The wheels radiating were sparkling like diamonds in the sun."

"Diamonds in the sun" do not sparkle many eyeballs. They sparkle many colors.

You have shown that based on one translation (I presented others) one can derive the concept of colors from the mention of the appearance. I have shown that the words used refer to appearance and only in selective translations can one see that a translator made the connection to colors.

1:5 וְזֶה֙ מַרְאֵיהֶ֔ן דְּמ֥וּת -- this was their mar'eh (appearance): the form of man
1:13 and 14 mar'eh - appearance of a glowing coal, a flash of light
1:15 Ofan (singular) means wheel
1:16 their appearance (mar'eihen) was like the appearance of tarshish. Some interpret the "like the appearance" to be "color" while others don't; others see it as just "the appearance."

The Rambam explains that the appearance statement in 1:16 also refers to 10:12
וְהָאוֹפַנִּ֗ים מְלֵאִ֤ים עֵינַ֙יִם֙
"and the ofanim were full of einayim"
and explains
אפשר שרצה בו מלא עינים ממש ואפשר שיהיה בעל מראים רבים: ״ועינו כעין הבדולח״ ואפשר שיהיה דמיון כמו שנמצא קדמונינו אומרים ׳כעין שגנב׳ ׳כעין שגזל׳ – רוצים בו כדמות מה שגנב כדמות מה שגזל

it is possible that Ezekiel wanted to indicate that it was full of eyes literally, and it is possible that it was the owner of multiple appearances: "and its look was like bdellium". And it is possible that its form was as is found by our Sages who say:—Like that [ke‘en] which he has stolen, like that [ke‘en] which he has robbed; wanting to put there like the form of whatever was stolen, the form of whatever was robbed.

So Rambam says it might mean eyes and it might mean appearances. Only because one translation decided to insert "color" (by connecting it to a verse which, according to one particular translation means colors) into the Rambam can you come up with the interpretation that it refers to being multi-colored.

This is a fine (if selective) interpretation, but it does not definitively show anything.

 

[hobelim]

So Rambam says it might mean eyes and it might mean appearances. Only because one translation decided to insert "color" (by connecting it to a verse which, according to one particular translation means colors) into the Rambam can you come up with the interpretation that it refers to being multi-colored.

This is a fine (if selective) interpretation, but it does not definitively show anything.

If my interpretation does not definitively show anything then neither does your citing various meanings of words in different contexts. The context is everything when trying to discern the meaning of any given word in any given sentence in every language. Is this news to you?

What you don't seem to get, astonishingly, is that the additional description of the encircling radiance given in Ezekiel 10:15-21; "The wheels radiating were sparkling like diamonds in the sun." precludes the possibility that the Prophet was describing eyes. Whats your problem?

The Ophanim are covered with many colors, not many eyes. This is irrefutable. Diamonds in the sun do not sparkle with many eyes. This is also irrefutable. It doesn't matter if you agree. The odds of you being right, it could be "many eyes" or "many colors", are zero. Its colors.

Now you know.

 

[rosends]

If my interpretation does not definitively show anything then neither does your citing various meanings of words in different contexts. The context is everything when trying to discern the meaning of any given word in any given sentence in every language. Is this news to you?

But I can show various other contexts in which the word does NOT mean "color". Can you show any classical commentator who connects a-y-n to color? Or are you relying on a selective translation which is not supported by any dictionary or lexicon? You seem to be confusing a logical deduction, which is a method of interpretation with a word's actual meaning. The two are different and I hope you understand that.

What you don't seem to get, astonishingly, is that the additional description of the encircling radiance given in Ezekiel 10:15-21; "The wheels radiating were sparkling like diamonds in the sun." precludes the possibility that the Prophet was describing eyes. Whats your problem?

You keep citing this one translation and then drawing an interpretation based on what you think it might mean. English has an idiom that employs the simile reagrding eyes. Here it is for 4th graders -- I hope you get the right answer

https://www.k5learning.com/worksheets/vocabulary/grade-4-similes-2.pdf

Your decision that sparkling=color and therefore the word for "appearance" actually means "color" is fatally flawed.

The Malbim writes "עיני ה' המשוטטים בהשגחה פרטיית" that the eyes were "the eyes of God wandering to effect personal guidance" as a reference to Zech 4:10 ("עֵינֵ֣י ה' הֵ֥מָּה מְשׁוֹטְטִ֖ים בְּכָל־הָאָֽרֶץ"). Do you have a different verse or biblical use of the word that can show the word as meaning "color" in a classical sense (not because a translator into English capriciously decided to use that word)?

The Ophanim are covered with many colors, not many eyes.

as a matter of interpretation, they might have been. But as a matter of what the words say, they weren't.

 

[hobelim]

See Moses lifting up the serpant...all who looked on it were saved just as all who look to Christ

Were they really saved?

According to scripture Hezekiah was credited with doing what is right in Gods eyes by destroying the serpent God told Moses to make for the people to turn to for healing after 'dying' when bitten by a plague of serpents sent by God because the former slaves were complaining about the hardships of freedom. I think it was Gods way of saying FU.

Heres the thing. If it was right for Hezekiah to destroy the statue that Moses made then it was never right for anyone to turn to it for healing during the time of testing in the wilderness.

What does that tell you about worshipping Jesus? He even cited this story. Jn 3:14. Didn't he repeatedly warn his disciples to pray to be spared the test? What test? THINK. You can do it!

The story of the bronze serpent is a story of the people being tested by God and turning to idolatry. Jesus cited this story because he knew that he would become the object of idolatry.

Now take all that wealth of garbage that accumulated in your addled head about Jesus, a man, being God and throw it in the trash, learn your A, B, C's, and go back to the drawing board

 

[hobelim]

But I can show various other contexts in which the word does NOT mean "color"

Well goodie for you. Can you show me any text where diamonds sparkle with many eyes?