Examining an Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement

[theword]

You could tell them to get into the ark and they wouldn't listen.

Jesus already paid for our sins and The Tribulation is God's wrath on mankind. God does not need to punish us because Jesus already took our punishment.

The angel of death passed over the houses that had blood on the door of the Hebrews and only killed the firstborns of the Egyptians. The Hebrews were excluded from judgment.

I was thinking about Moses striking the rock twice and God was not pleased with Him. Jesus was smitten once so we don't have to be smitten a second time when He was already smitten on the cross.

If you read Revelation, the people don't repent which indicates that the ones suffering wrath are not Christian because Christians repent.

Luke 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

If I believe in Him and deserve everlasting life and if God is kind to the unthankful and to the evil then I don't belong in the class that are judged during The Great Tribulation and neither do you, Irish Ram.

God's punishment on us is the death of our flesh, not our spirit that He created within His mind.

John 6
63: It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

Genesis 2
7: then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Genesis 3
17: And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, `You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
18: thorns and thistles it shall bring forth to you; and you shall eat the plants of the field.
19: In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return."

Genesis 6
12: And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth.
13: And God said to Noah, "I have determined to make an end of all flesh; for the earth is filled with violence through them; behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
17: For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall die.


The flood was used by God to set up the "Lord's Day" in which the magma inside the earth will erupt through the crust of the earth and melt it all. This is known as the "Lake of Fire" in Revelation or the "Fire of the Lord" in the prophecies of Isaiah.

Isaiah 66
15: "For behold, the LORD will come in fire, and his chariots like the stormwind, to render his anger in fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16: For by fire will the LORD execute judgment, and by his sword, upon all flesh; and those slain by the LORD shall be many.

 

[Chuckt]

Examining an Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement

by Thomas Ice

All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.

-Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)

Examining an Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement

That settles it, the fake writing proves that the tribulation is after the rapture.

This is proof that people do listen to what I write.
Usually I post stuff and I did post stuff on the rapture but everyone ignored it before.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Examining an Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement

That settles it, the fake writing proves that the tribulation is after the rapture.

This is proof that people do listen to what I write.
Usually I post stuff and I did post stuff on the rapture but everyone ignored it before.

I never listen to anything you right, text to speech is for idiots.

 

[daws101]

That settles it, the fake writing proves that the tribulation is after the rapture.

This is proof that people do listen to what I write.
Usually I post stuff and I did post stuff on the rapture but everyone ignored it before.

I never listen to anything you right, text to speech is for idiots.

it's a physical impossibility to listen to his posts ....for once I agree with you..

 

[The Irish Ram]

The doctrine of The Rapture is the creation of early 19th century British evangelicals.

You ask Christians in 70 AD, 700 AD, 1700 AD, that would accuse a person of heresy for believing that.

Correctly so.

They didn't believe Paul either.
If there is something I don't understand or something that is debatable, I capitulate to those who have spent their lives studying the Word. The most notable preachers today are in agreement concerning the rapture.
Caught up, out of, and especially in the air are completely different actions than foot touching the Mt. of Olives.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

In the air and on the earth are two opposite scenarios. The first making no sense if the second is the only opportunity for us to be with the Lord forever. If we are in the air, and the Bible says exactly that, then we wouldn't be with the Lord, him being down here on the Mt. of Olives. If we are the saints that come with Him down to the Mt. then where were we before His return, here? Then who are the saints that return with Him? Return means to come back. Those that return have had to have left at some point.

If you don't believe we leave this earth, then you'll have to explain what purpose we serve in hanging out in the air, in the clouds. And what "we are not appointed to God's wrath" means. Not leaving mean staying and enduring God's wrath until Christ returns to stop the carnage. Which is it?

If harpaz doesn't exist then Moses, and Elijah who conversed with Christ at the transfiguration and were seen by eye witnesses, are still dead in their tombs and that meeting didn't happen either. You can't have it both ways.

 

[daws101]

The doctrine of The Rapture is the creation of early 19th century British evangelicals.

You ask Christians in 70 AD, 700 AD, 1700 AD, that would accuse a person of heresy for believing that.

Correctly so.

They didn't believe Paul either.
If there is something I don't understand or something that is debatable, I capitulate to those who have spent their lives studying the Word. The most notable preachers today are in agreement concerning the rapture.
Caught up, out of, and especially in the air are completely different actions than foot touching the Mt. of Olives.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

In the air and on the earth are two opposite scenarios. The first making no sense if the second is the only opportunity for us to be with the Lord forever. If we are in the air, and the Bible says exactly that, then we wouldn't be with the Lord, him being down here on the Mt. of Olives. If we are the saints that come with Him down to the Mt. then where were we before His return, here? Then who are the saints that return with Him? Return means to come back. Those that return have had to have left at some point.

If you don't believe we leave this earth, then you'll have to explain what purpose we serve in hanging out in the air, in the clouds. And what "we are not appointed to God's wrath" means. Not leaving mean staying and enduring God's wrath until Christ returns to stop the carnage. Which is it?

If harpaz doesn't exist then Moses, and Elijah who conversed with Christ at the transfiguration and were seen by eye witnesses, are still dead in their tombs and that meeting didn't happen either. You can't have it both ways.

Paul spoke colloquial Greek (not formal Greek)
more like street Greek

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord the air 109: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Strong's Greek Lexicon
109. aer ah-ayr' from aemi (to breathe unconsciously,
i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow); "air"
(as naturally circumambient):--air. Compare 5594.

this is not cumulus or stratus
this is about our (SOUL BODIES)
remember this?

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man
[of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils
==> the breath of life; <== and man became a living soul.

and this is one reason people were confused with this 1st letter
written to the Thessalonians
(so Paul wrote the second to clear this up)
2Th 2:1 ¶ Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
back to the question:
this is basically saying we shall meet the LORD
in our breath or life bodies (spiritual bodies)
1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

remember flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of GOD
so the flesh (at the 7th trump) shall be removed
and we shall all be changed (then and only then can we meet the LORD)

Paul covers this better (here)

1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Street Greek. lol If you weren't so irascible, I'd pos rep you for that.

Paul spoke in Koinonia Greek. In the bible it is translated "fellowship" twelve times, "sharing" three times, and "participation" and "contribution" twice each.

Daws, What do you make of the verses you quote? Sounds like you are giving credence to that which you fight so hard to disprove. Have you always relied on self, or did something happen to make you turn a blind eye to the Father that loves you beyond human understanding?

 

[daws101]

Street Greek. lol If you weren't so irascible, I'd pos rep you for that.

Paul spoke in Koinonia Greek. In the bible it is translated "fellowship" twelve times, "sharing" three times, and "participation" and "contribution" twice each.

Daws, What do you make of the verses you quote? Sounds like you are giving credence to that which you fight so hard to disprove. Have you always relied on self, or did something happen to make you turn a blind eye to the Father that loves you beyond human understanding?

when do you not rationalize?
the point you missed either intentional or in ignorance is that "air" meant to breath not float not fly but to breath in god.
as to giving credence that's another false assumption...and it's no hard fight or even a fight to disprove, it disproves itself.
it goes to a much more relevant point, that the bible has been edited, embellished, misquoted, taken out of context ....
as to god and religion in general....nothing happened to make me turn away
as there was nothing to turn away from.
when I was small I might have had some small measure of belief but as I grew up and became more educated, the bible and the rules of religion made less and less sense..that added to the fact that there is no evidence for or against the exsitance of god.
the turning away analogy in my case, is not applicable or relevant..

 

[Chuckt]

Examining an Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement

by Thomas Ice

All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.

-Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)

Examining an Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement

That settles it, the fake writing proves that the tribulation is after the rapture.

I think everyone is missing the obvious. The Rapture is in the Bible. I believe it was taught by the early church because it is recorded in the scriptures. There were martyrs in the early church so we're left with both Christians who escaped and Christians who didn't escape. Those who escaped either escaped on their own or didn't do their job because they weren't Christians and never cared for God's words to either teach it or get in trouble for it. I believe there were Paul's letters which circled the Churches and everyone may not have had a personal copy but maybe they weren't considered worthy of attention because they were Christians just as many things Christian do not get attention today whereas many worldly things get mentioned or people of worldly prominence gets mentioned which are often the wrong things that get brought up.

Where do you get your information? Do you get it from the Bible or do you get it solely from a man that is an authority from a Church? Do we just want it easy and have someone tell us what to believe?

I was in the Christian bookstore buying Christian books on doctrine. I usually get an "ugh" from people I know because doctrine is that boring stuff but I was holding and checking out books in the Christian bookstore and I felt God convict me that I'm going to all these sources instead of His word.

What is Christian maturity? If I asked you, what would you say? This is what the Bible says on Christian maturity.

Hebrews 5:12 ¶ For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

When you are looking in history for a lot of teaching on the Rapture, who or what are you going to look to? A man like the Pope to teach about the Rapture? I actually have never heard the Pope speak about the rapture but God says in the scriptures that you need to grow up because a baby desires milk. A baby goes to a teacher to get milk because they are unskillful in the word of righteousness which is the word of God. Those that are of full age go to God through the word of God and they can see that the Bible given by God teaches the Rapture of the Church.

Stop being led with milk and grow up to have your senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Grow up and eat the meat of the word and you will see the Rapture is revealed.

 

[Chuckt]

The early church had their tribulations and we will have ours as well. No one is disappearing into a vapor at the first sign of trouble. The bible does not teach the rapture. Jesus said those that endure until the end the same shall be saved. Enduring until the end means just that. Until the end. You have to be here until the end to endure until the end. Hello out there. - Jeri

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see g3700 &#8000;&#960;&#964;&#8049;&#957;&#959;&#956;&#945;&#953; optanomai)the Lord:

Vine points out how close the word "see" in Hebrews 12:14 is about the same in Hebrews 9:28 which says, "unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation" so by definition of Jesus' atonement, God gives to us His righteousness or Holiness without which you will not see the Lord. It is by faith and not by works because if it is of works, it is no more of faith (Romans 11:6 - scripture below).

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look g553 &#7936;&#960;&#949;&#954;&#948;&#8051;&#967;&#959;&#956;&#945;&#953 for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

These last three words, emphanizo, phaneroo and optomai are used with reference to the "appearances" of Christ in the closing verses of Heb. 9; emphanizo in Hbr 9:24, of His presence before the face of God for us; phaneroo in Hbr 9:26, of His past manifestation for "the sacrifice of Himself;" optomai in Hbr 9:28, of His future "appearance" for His saints.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

6 Verb Strong's Number: g3700 Greek: optomai

-Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

I love it when scripture answers your proof texts.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Examining an Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement

That settles it, the fake writing proves that the tribulation is after the rapture.

I think everyone is missing the obvious. The Rapture is in the Bible. I believe it was taught by the early church because it is recorded in the scriptures. There were martyrs in the early church so we're left with both Christians who escaped and Christians who didn't escape. Those who escaped either escaped on their own or didn't do their job because they weren't Christians and never cared for God's words to either teach it or get in trouble for it. I believe there were Paul's letters which circled the Churches and everyone may not have had a personal copy but maybe they weren't considered worthy of attention because they were Christians just as many things Christian do not get attention today whereas many worldly things get mentioned or people of worldly prominence gets mentioned which are often the wrong things that get brought up.

Where do you get your information? Do you get it from the Bible or do you get it solely from a man that is an authority from a Church? Do we just want it easy and have someone tell us what to believe?

I was in the Christian bookstore buying Christian books on doctrine. I usually get an "ugh" from people I know because doctrine is that boring stuff but I was holding and checking out books in the Christian bookstore and I felt God convict me that I'm going to all these sources instead of His word.

What is Christian maturity? If I asked you, what would you say? This is what the Bible says on Christian maturity.

Hebrews 5:12 ¶ For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

When you are looking in history for a lot of teaching on the Rapture, who or what are you going to look to? A man like the Pope to teach about the Rapture? I actually have never heard the Pope speak about the rapture but God says in the scriptures that you need to grow up because a baby desires milk. A baby goes to a teacher to get milk because they are unskillful in the word of righteousness which is the word of God. Those that are of full age go to God through the word of God and they can see that the Bible given by God teaches the Rapture of the Church.

Stop being led with milk and grow up to have your senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Grow up and eat the meat of the word and you will see the Rapture is revealed.

The only one missing the obvious is you.

You are basing your defense of your interpretation of the Rapture on a writing that is classified as false. In other words, you are using a lie to defend your position.

The Rapture, as it is taught today, is not a teaching of God, it is a teaching of man. Jesus told his disciples that they would be persecuted, and even taught them that, in order to avoid some of the worst things that are coming, they needed to pay attention, and run away. Now you want me to believe that, at the first sign of trouble, Jesus is going to come back and take people who aren't even brave enough to stand up in church and declare their beliefs and whisk them away.

Do you have any idea how dangerous it is to tell people that? Are you aware that many missionaries in China taught people that way, and that no one in China believes it because they suffered everything that they were told would not happen as long as they believed?

What about the people in the Christians in the Middle East? Why didn't they get taken away?

We were not promised protection from worldly troubles, and teaching that we are going to receive it is heresy.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The statement "I think everyone is missing the obvious. The Rapture is in the Bible." is supported with a belief.

The Bible has no support for The Rapture, none. Rapture Doctrine invented by John Darby in 1830 AD There is no argument out there that can logically and comprehensively rebut the below.

1. Rapture doctrine is one of the most recent "new doctrines" in the history of the Church. The only doctrine more recent is the invention of the sinner's prayer for salvation by Billy Sunday in 1930, which was made popular by Billy Graham in 1935.

2. The fact that John Nelson Darby invented the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine around 1830 AD is unquestionably true. All attempts to find evidence of this wild doctrine before 1830 have failed, with a single exception: Morgan Edwards wrote a short essay as a college paper for Bristol Baptist College in Bristol England in 1744 where he confused the second coming with the first resurrection of Revelation 20 and described a "pre-tribulation" rapture. However Edwards ideas, which he admitted were brand new and never before taught, had no influence in the modern population of the false doctrine. That prize to goes to Darby.

3. Prior to 1830, no church taught it in their creed, catechism or statement of faith.

4. Darby has had a profound impact on religion today, since Darby's "secret rapture" false doctrine has infected most conservative, evangelical churches. While the official creeds and statements of faith of many churches either reject or are silent about Rapture, neither do they openly condemn this doctrine of a demon from the pulpit.

 

[Chuckt]

That settles it, the fake writing proves that the tribulation is after the rapture.

I think everyone is missing the obvious. The Rapture is in the Bible. I believe it was taught by the early church because it is recorded in the scriptures. There were martyrs in the early church so we're left with both Christians who escaped and Christians who didn't escape. Those who escaped either escaped on their own or didn't do their job because they weren't Christians and never cared for God's words to either teach it or get in trouble for it. I believe there were Paul's letters which circled the Churches and everyone may not have had a personal copy but maybe they weren't considered worthy of attention because they were Christians just as many things Christian do not get attention today whereas many worldly things get mentioned or people of worldly prominence gets mentioned which are often the wrong things that get brought up.

Where do you get your information? Do you get it from the Bible or do you get it solely from a man that is an authority from a Church? Do we just want it easy and have someone tell us what to believe?

I was in the Christian bookstore buying Christian books on doctrine. I usually get an "ugh" from people I know because doctrine is that boring stuff but I was holding and checking out books in the Christian bookstore and I felt God convict me that I'm going to all these sources instead of His word.

What is Christian maturity? If I asked you, what would you say? This is what the Bible says on Christian maturity.

Hebrews 5:12 ¶ For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

When you are looking in history for a lot of teaching on the Rapture, who or what are you going to look to? A man like the Pope to teach about the Rapture? I actually have never heard the Pope speak about the rapture but God says in the scriptures that you need to grow up because a baby desires milk. A baby goes to a teacher to get milk because they are unskillful in the word of righteousness which is the word of God. Those that are of full age go to God through the word of God and they can see that the Bible given by God teaches the Rapture of the Church.

Stop being led with milk and grow up to have your senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Grow up and eat the meat of the word and you will see the Rapture is revealed.

The only one missing the obvious is you.

You are basing your defense of your interpretation of the Rapture on a writing that is classified as false. In other words, you are using a lie to defend your position.

The Rapture, as it is taught today, is not a teaching of God, it is a teaching of man. Jesus told his disciples that they would be persecuted, and even taught them that, in order to avoid some of the worst things that are coming, they needed to pay attention, and run away. Now you want me to believe that, at the first sign of trouble, Jesus is going to come back and take people who aren't even brave enough to stand up in church and declare their beliefs and whisk them away.

Do you have any idea how dangerous it is to tell people that? Are you aware that many missionaries in China taught people that way, and that no one in China believes it because they suffered everything that they were told would not happen as long as they believed?

What about the people in the Christians in the Middle East? Why didn't they get taken away?

We were not promised protection from worldly troubles, and teaching that we are going to receive it is heresy.

1.) Jesus was speaking to the Jew in Jerusalem to run away. The passage is Jewish so I believe the audience is Jewish.
2.) Jesus did say that we would have tribulation in this world. My life has lots of little tribulations. This is not "The Great Tribulation" which is different. The Great Tribulation is the wrath of God poured out on unbelievers.

Now you want me to believe that, at the first sign of trouble, Jesus is going to come back and take people who aren't even brave enough to stand up in church and declare their beliefs and whisk them away.

So you're saying that no one declared their beliefs by being baptized? You're saying that no one declared their beliefs by taking communion? You're saying that at no one time anyone ever declared that they believed? I find that hard to believe.

Are you aware that many missionaries in China taught people that way, and that no one in China believes it because they suffered everything that they were told would not happen as long as they believed?

And your point is that God isn't going to treat them differently when it is His wrath that is poured out? You're saying that God would leave Lot to die in Sodom or that Noah shouldn't have been saved with eight souls or that the Israelites shouldn't have been taken out of Egypt or that God wouldn't fight their battles which is basically what a good portion of the Old Testament is about? The promises to Israel don't exist? You pretty much have to neuter the whole Bible to fit your belief system. The whole concept of Heaven and Hell along with the atonement would have to be abolished due to your belief system.

I expected better from you. Why don't you do better than that?

 

[Chuckt]

The statement "I think everyone is missing the obvious. The Rapture is in the Bible." is supported with a belief.

The Bible has no support for The Rapture, none. Rapture Doctrine invented by John Darby in 1830 AD There is no argument out there that can logically and comprehensively rebut the below.

1. Rapture doctrine is one of the most recent "new doctrines" in the history of the Church. The only doctrine more recent is the invention of the sinner's prayer for salvation by Billy Sunday in 1930, which was made popular by Billy Graham in 1935.

2. The fact that John Nelson Darby invented the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine around 1830 AD is unquestionably true. All attempts to find evidence of this wild doctrine before 1830 have failed, with a single exception: Morgan Edwards wrote a short essay as a college paper for Bristol Baptist College in Bristol England in 1744 where he confused the second coming with the first resurrection of Revelation 20 and described a "pre-tribulation" rapture. However Edwards ideas, which he admitted were brand new and never before taught, had no influence in the modern population of the false doctrine. That prize to goes to Darby.

3. Prior to 1830, no church taught it in their creed, catechism or statement of faith.

4. Darby has had a profound impact on religion today, since Darby's "secret rapture" false doctrine has infected most conservative, evangelical churches. While the official creeds and statements of faith of many churches either reject or are silent about Rapture, neither do they openly condemn this doctrine of a demon from the pulpit.

Jake,

It is taught in the Bible. I taught and posted this before but everyone chose to ignore me. Wonder why? Because it is Biblical. Do you know why what I'm going to post is ignored?

Answer: Because people have already said, "no" to God.

John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Contrast:

John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

We have a user that basically says without holiness we cannot see the Lord but John 3:21 says that he that doeth truth cometh to the light and there are many people who wouldn't measure up that do come to the light and their deeds will be made manifest that they are wrought in God through faith.

Here is my previous post to show the Biblical writers used the Greek word "Harpazo" instead of the Latin word "Rapture".

How the Word &#8220;Rapture&#8221; or &#8220;Harpaz&#333;&#8221; is used in the Bible.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up (harpaz&#333;) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Strong's G726 - harpaz&#333;
1) to seize, carry off by force
2) to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
3) to snatch out or away
AV &#8212; catch up 4, take by force 3, catch away 2, pluck 2, catch 1, pull 1

Greek Lexicon :: G726 (KJV)

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take (harpaz&#333;) it by force (harpaz&#333;).

Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one], and catcheth away (harpaz&#333;) that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. it by force (harpaz&#333;).

Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one], and catcheth away (harpaz&#333;) that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

John 6:15 ¶ When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force (harpaz&#333;), to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

John 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth (harpaz&#333;) them, and scattereth the sheep.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall (harpaz&#333 never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck (harpaz&#333;) them out of my hand.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck (harpaz&#333;) [them] out of my Father's hand.

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away (harpaz&#333;) Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Acts 23:10 And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take (harpaz&#333;) him by force (harpaz&#333;) from among them, and to bring [him] into the castle.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up (harpaz&#333;) to the third heaven.

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught (harpaz&#333;) up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up (harpaz&#333;) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling (harpaz&#333;) [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up (harpaz&#333;) unto God, and [to] his throne.

 

[The Irish Ram]

 

[Quantum Windbag]

1.) Jesus was speaking to the Jew in Jerusalem to run away. The passage is Jewish so I believe the audience is Jewish.

Read Matthew 24

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Tell me about how that was a warning to the Jews, not to us. If you repeat it often enough you might be able to convince yourself that you actually know what you are talking about. Just don't expect me to buy into your delusion.

2.) Jesus did say that we would have tribulation in this world. My life has lots of little tribulations. This is not "The Great Tribulation" which is different. The Great Tribulation is the wrath of God poured out on unbelievers.

No it is not.

The Great Tribulation is the world turning on believers, God's wrath is a totally separate event.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

So you're saying that no one declared their beliefs by being baptized? You're saying that no one declared their beliefs by taking communion? You're saying that at no one time anyone ever declared that they believed? I find that hard to believe.

When did I say that? Are you blathering incoherently because you have found yourself twisted into a pretzel trying to follow your own logic?

And your point is that God isn't going to treat them differently when it is His wrath that is poured out? You're saying that God would leave Lot to die in Sodom or that Noah shouldn't have been saved with eight souls or that the Israelites shouldn't have been taken out of Egypt or that God wouldn't fight their battles which is basically what a good portion of the Old Testament is about? The promises to Israel don't exist? You pretty much have to neuter the whole Bible to fit your belief system. The whole concept of Heaven and Hell along with the atonement would have to be abolished due to your belief system.

No, I am saying there is a difference between man's rebellion against God, AKA the Tribulation, and God's wrath.

Then again, I stopped drinking from the milk of the scripture decades ago.

I expected better from you. Why don't you do better than that?

I know, you expect everyone to bow to your superior wisdom. Fortunately, I have been studying eschatology for longer than you have been alive, so I am not easily confused by worldly wisdom.

 

[Chuckt]

1.) Jesus was speaking to the Jew in Jerusalem to run away. The passage is Jewish so I believe the audience is Jewish.

Read Matthew 24

4 Jesus answered: &#8220;Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, &#8216;I am the Messiah,&#8217; and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Tell me about how that was a warning to the Jews, not to us. If you repeat it often enough you might be able to convince yourself that you actually know what you are talking about. Just don't expect me to buy into your delusion.

Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

We aren't living in Judaea.

Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Jews live on their roofs in Israel. I do not. Most of the people I know in America do not live on their house tops.

Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

It is fitting that Israel won't be Raptured because they haven't known their Messiah but there is a remnant that will be saved.

It is revisionism and replacement theology which says that the Church replaced Israel so if you tell yourself the lie enough, you have to read "Church" every time it talks about Israel.

It is kind of funny that I take you as someone who doesn't believe or doesn't want to believe yet you impose the restrictions that I can't believe in the Rapture. Do as you say but not as you do? If you are free to believe what you want then why can't I believe what I want?

The rapture or catching away of believers to be with Christ in the air is absolutely not a part of "Catholic" theology or belief. If anyone says it is, they are clueless about Rcism. The word used in the original Greek was translated "a falling away" in Paul's letter to the Thessalonians, and it meant the believers being caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Rome totally rejects the concept because they deny Paul's distinct revelation of the mystery which is the only reference to the "rapture" in the whole bible. It is not mentioned in Revelation either because that book is prophecy, not mystery.

Rome can't handle Pauline doctrine because it refutes their main foundation which is works , not grace.

-God's Trombone

The Catholic Church embraces Amillennialism and freely attaches figurative meaning to the plain text of the Scriptures whenever it suits their agenda.

Paul's Epistles are virtually ignored. . . most Catholics don't progress past the Gospel stories taught in Children's Church.

-Sid

 

[Chuckt]

Quote: Originally Posted by Chuckt View Post
So you're saying that no one declared their beliefs by being baptized? You're saying that no one declared their beliefs by taking communion? You're saying that at no one time anyone ever declared that they believed? I find that hard to believe.

When did I say that? Are you blathering incoherently because you have found yourself twisted into a pretzel trying to follow your own logic?

-Quantumwindbag

This is where you said it:

The Rapture, as it is taught today, is not a teaching of God, it is a teaching of man. Jesus told his disciples that they would be persecuted, and even taught them that, in order to avoid some of the worst things that are coming, they needed to pay attention, and run away. Now you want me to believe that, at the first sign of trouble, Jesus is going to come back and take people who aren't even brave enough to stand up in church and declare their beliefs and whisk them away.

Underlining is mine. You wrote it here:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...pre-trib-rapture-statement-3.html#post8512519

My (Chuck's) response:

1 Corinthians 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

We publicly take communion in church and we remember the Lord's death till He comes. It is a witness.

Baptism is a profession of faith and it is a "like figure" or "picture" of the gospel and by being baptized, we proclaim that we died (Romans 6) by going down into the water, we're washed by Jesus and we come back up to new life. That is what we're proclaiming.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

So the fact that you don't think everyone stands up in church to proclaim the Lord is your problem because you need to brush up on the Bible because you are bearing false witness against the Church and painting us as pathetic when the ignorance is yours because they cared enough to come, they showed respect to God by getting dressed up and the fact that they came out gives the pastor a platform. Everything else I hear like "Look at all those dead people coming out of church" or "they are the frozen chosen", etc., it is hate and ignorance. They built a church, they have a message, they tried, they made an effort. They are people worthy of love and respect.

When you build a church, let me know how easy it was.

 

[Chuckt]

The statement "I think everyone is missing the obvious. The Rapture is in the Bible." is supported with a belief.

The Bible has no support for The Rapture, none. Rapture Doctrine invented by John Darby in 1830 AD There is no argument out there that can logically and comprehensively rebut the below.

Wikipedia is wrong. You and others need to do more homework.

1. Joseph Mede (1627): Clavis Apocalyptica

Some believe that he in this work made a distinction between the rapture of the saints in contrast to the second of Christ to earth.

2. Increase Mather (1639-1723)

Increase Mather was a pastor, scholar, and was the first President of Harvard College. Paul Boyer has noted that this Puritan scholar proved "that the saints would be caught up into the air beforehand, thereby escaping the final conflagration." This teaching from Mather was an early formulation of the rapture doctrine it seems.

3. Peter Jurieu (1687)

Peter Jurie in his book "Approaching Deliverance of the Church " (1687) taught that Christ would come in the air to rapture the saints and return to heaven before the battle of Armageddon.He spoke of a secret Rapture prior to His coming in glory and judgment at Armageddon.

4. John Gill (1748)

Dr. John Gill was one of the most brilliant scholars of his day. This Calvinist Baptist theologian wrote a full commentary set on the Bible in 1748. In this commentary he made a statement in his notes on 1 Thessalonians 4 that supported a time difference between the rapture of the saints and the coming of Christ to earth. He said:

....here Christ will stop and will be visible to all, and as easily discerned by all, good and bad, as the body of the sun at noon-day; as yet He will not descend on earth, because it is not fit to receive Him; but when that and its works are burnt up, and it is purged and purified by fire, and become a new earth, He'll descend upon it, and dwell with his saints in it: and this suggests another reason why He'll stay in the air, and His saints shall meet Him there, and whom He'll take up with Him into the third heaven, till the general conflagration and burning of the world is over, and to preserve them from it....



5. Morgan Edwards (1742-1744) the Founder of Brown University

Edwards was a prominent Baptist Leader in his day. When he came to America he was recommended to a pastoral role by the famous John Gill. He founded the first Baptist College in the colonies. This college later became known as Brown University, a well known Ivy League University of our times. Edwards taught that Christ would return for his church saints 3.5 years before he returned to establish the Kingdom of Christ on earth, the 1000 year reign of Christ. He specifically said:
"The distance between the first and second resurrection will be somewhat more than a thousand years. I say, somewhat more--, because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's 'appearing in the air' (1 Thess. 4:17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many 'mansions in the Father's house' (John 14:2)."

The History of the Pre-trib Rapture

I think I need some believers to help me go over and edit Wikipedia and put a stop to this nonsense.

 

[Chuckt]

I think I need some believers to help me go over and edit Wikipedia and put a stop to this nonsense.

John Gill (23 November 1697 &#8211; 14 October 1771) was an English Baptist pastor, biblical scholar, and theologian who held to a firm Calvinistic soteriology. Born in Kettering, Northamptonshire, he attended Kettering Grammar School where he mastered the Latin classics and learned Greek by age 11. He continued self-study in everything from logic to Hebrew, his love for the latter remaining throughout his life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gill_(theologian)

So Dr. John Gill lived from 1697-1771.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

Then we which are alive and remain,.... See Gill on 1 Thessalonians 4:15.

shall be caught up; suddenly, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, and with force and power; by the power of Christ, and by the ministry and means of the holy angels; and to which rapture will contribute, the agility which the bodies both of the raised and changed saints will have: and this rapture of the living saints will be

together with them; with the dead in Christ, that will then be raised; so that the one will not come before the other, or the one be sooner with Christ than the other; but the one being raised and the other changed, they will be joined in one company and general assembly, and be caught up together:

in the clouds; the same clouds perhaps in which Christ will come, will be let down to take them up; these will be the chariots, in which they will be carried up to him; and thus, as at our Lord's ascension a cloud received him, and in it he was carried up out of the sight of men, so at this time will all the saints ride up in the clouds of heaven:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

John Gill's commentary is right here on Biblehub. So much for the lie that John Darby started the Rapture theology in 1830. Lol.