Examining an Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement

[Quantum Windbag]

1.) Jesus was speaking to the Jew in Jerusalem to run away. The passage is Jewish so I believe the audience is Jewish.

Read Matthew 24





Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

We aren't living in Judaea.

Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Jews live on their roofs in Israel. I do not. Most of the people I know in America do not live on their house tops.

Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

It is fitting that Israel won't be Raptured because they haven't known their Messiah but there is a remnant that will be saved.

It is revisionism and replacement theology which says that the Church replaced Israel so if you tell yourself the lie enough, you have to read "Church" every time it talks about Israel.

It is kind of funny that I take you as someone who doesn't believe or doesn't want to believe yet you impose the restrictions that I can't believe in the Rapture. Do as you say but not as you do? If you are free to believe what you want then why can't I believe what I want?


-God's Trombone

The Catholic Church embraces Amillennialism and freely attaches figurative meaning to the plain text of the Scriptures whenever it suits their agenda.

Paul's Epistles are virtually ignored. . . most Catholics don't progress past the Gospel stories taught in Children's Church.

-Sid

Clean this shit up so I can figure out what the fuck you are trying to say without having to guess where my post ends and yours begins and I will show you why you are wrong, instead of just incompetent.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Quote: Originally Posted by Chuckt View Post
So you're saying that no one declared their beliefs by being baptized? You're saying that no one declared their beliefs by taking communion? You're saying that at no one time anyone ever declared that they believed? I find that hard to believe.

When did I say that? Are you blathering incoherently because you have found yourself twisted into a pretzel trying to follow your own logic?

-Quantumwindbag

This is where you said it:

The Rapture, as it is taught today, is not a teaching of God, it is a teaching of man. Jesus told his disciples that they would be persecuted, and even taught them that, in order to avoid some of the worst things that are coming, they needed to pay attention, and run away. Now you want me to believe that, at the first sign of trouble, Jesus is going to come back and take people who aren't even brave enough to stand up in church and declare their beliefs and whisk them away.

Underlining is mine. You wrote it here:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...pre-trib-rapture-statement-3.html#post8512519

My (Chuck's) response:

1 Corinthians 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

We publicly take communion in church and we remember the Lord's death till He comes. It is a witness.

Baptism is a profession of faith and it is a "like figure" or "picture" of the gospel and by being baptized, we proclaim that we died (Romans 6) by going down into the water, we're washed by Jesus and we come back up to new life. That is what we're proclaiming.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

So the fact that you don't think everyone stands up in church to proclaim the Lord is your problem because you need to brush up on the Bible because you are bearing false witness against the Church and painting us as pathetic when the ignorance is yours because they cared enough to come, they showed respect to God by getting dressed up and the fact that they came out gives the pastor a platform. Everything else I hear like "Look at all those dead people coming out of church" or "they are the frozen chosen", etc., it is hate and ignorance. They built a church, they have a message, they tried, they made an effort. They are people worthy of love and respect.

When you build a church, let me know how easy it was.

Are you confused by English? Is it not your native tongue?

Pointing out that the the way the Rapture is taught is wrong is not the same as saying that there will be no rapture. Feel free to get back to me when you get that fundamental truth through your thick skull.

 

[Chuckt]

Read Matthew 24





Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

We aren't living in Judaea.

Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Jews live on their roofs in Israel. I do not. Most of the people I know in America do not live on their house tops.

Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

It is fitting that Israel won't be Raptured because they haven't known their Messiah but there is a remnant that will be saved.

It is revisionism and replacement theology which says that the Church replaced Israel so if you tell yourself the lie enough, you have to read "Church" every time it talks about Israel.

It is kind of funny that I take you as someone who doesn't believe or doesn't want to believe yet you impose the restrictions that I can't believe in the Rapture. Do as you say but not as you do? If you are free to believe what you want then why can't I believe what I want?


-God's Trombone

-Sid

Clean this shit up so I can figure out what the fuck you are trying to say without having to guess where my post ends and yours begins and I will show you why you are wrong, instead of just incompetent.

I used the quote function and some of the text didn't show up so I made my own quotes using cut and paste.

 

[Chuckt]

Quote: Originally Posted by Chuckt View Post
So you're saying that no one declared their beliefs by being baptized? You're saying that no one declared their beliefs by taking communion? You're saying that at no one time anyone ever declared that they believed? I find that hard to believe.

-Quantumwindbag

This is where you said it:

The Rapture, as it is taught today, is not a teaching of God, it is a teaching of man. Jesus told his disciples that they would be persecuted, and even taught them that, in order to avoid some of the worst things that are coming, they needed to pay attention, and run away. Now you want me to believe that, at the first sign of trouble, Jesus is going to come back and take people who aren't even brave enough to stand up in church and declare their beliefs and whisk them away.

Underlining is mine. You wrote it here:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...pre-trib-rapture-statement-3.html#post8512519

My (Chuck's) response:

1 Corinthians 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

We publicly take communion in church and we remember the Lord's death till He comes. It is a witness.

Baptism is a profession of faith and it is a "like figure" or "picture" of the gospel and by being baptized, we proclaim that we died (Romans 6) by going down into the water, we're washed by Jesus and we come back up to new life. That is what we're proclaiming.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

So the fact that you don't think everyone stands up in church to proclaim the Lord is your problem because you need to brush up on the Bible because you are bearing false witness against the Church and painting us as pathetic when the ignorance is yours because they cared enough to come, they showed respect to God by getting dressed up and the fact that they came out gives the pastor a platform. Everything else I hear like "Look at all those dead people coming out of church" or "they are the frozen chosen", etc., it is hate and ignorance. They built a church, they have a message, they tried, they made an effort. They are people worthy of love and respect.

When you build a church, let me know how easy it was.

Are you confused by English? Is it not your native tongue?

Pointing out that the the way the Rapture is taught is wrong is not the same as saying that there will be no rapture. Feel free to get back to me when you get that fundamental truth through your thick skull.

The whole church is wrong and you are right? How superior of you.

I don't consider you an authority.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Clean this shit up so I can figure out what the fuck you are trying to say without having to guess where my post ends and yours begins and I will show you why you are wrong, instead of just incompetent.

I used the quote function and some of the text didn't show up so I made my own quotes using cut and paste.

The text didn't show up because you can't use BB code, which is about as user friendly as it is possible to get in coding. Fix it, or don't, just don't expect me to do it for you.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

-Quantumwindbag

This is where you said it:

Underlining is mine. You wrote it here:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...pre-trib-rapture-statement-3.html#post8512519

My (Chuck's) response:

1 Corinthians 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

We publicly take communion in church and we remember the Lord's death till He comes. It is a witness.

Baptism is a profession of faith and it is a "like figure" or "picture" of the gospel and by being baptized, we proclaim that we died (Romans 6) by going down into the water, we're washed by Jesus and we come back up to new life. That is what we're proclaiming.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

So the fact that you don't think everyone stands up in church to proclaim the Lord is your problem because you need to brush up on the Bible because you are bearing false witness against the Church and painting us as pathetic when the ignorance is yours because they cared enough to come, they showed respect to God by getting dressed up and the fact that they came out gives the pastor a platform. Everything else I hear like "Look at all those dead people coming out of church" or "they are the frozen chosen", etc., it is hate and ignorance. They built a church, they have a message, they tried, they made an effort. They are people worthy of love and respect.

When you build a church, let me know how easy it was.

Are you confused by English? Is it not your native tongue?

Pointing out that the the way the Rapture is taught is wrong is not the same as saying that there will be no rapture. Feel free to get back to me when you get that fundamental truth through your thick skull.

The whole church is wrong and you are right? How superior of you.

I don't consider you an authority.

It isn't the whole church. There are multiple interpretations of the timing of the rapture, they can't all be right. The fact that you dismiss that simple fact says all anyone with a brain needs to know.

But thanks for making my point.

 

[Chuckt]

Are you confused by English? Is it not your native tongue?

Pointing out that the the way the Rapture is taught is wrong is not the same as saying that there will be no rapture. Feel free to get back to me when you get that fundamental truth through your thick skull.

The whole church is wrong and you are right? How superior of you.

I don't consider you an authority.

It isn't the whole church. There are multiple interpretations of the timing of the rapture, they can't all be right. The fact that you dismiss that simple fact says all anyone with a brain needs to know.

But thanks for making my point.

My view is the pre-tribulational rapture of the Church. I don't apologize for the rest of the church.

 

[Chuckt]

Clean this shit up so I can figure out what the fuck you are trying to say without having to guess where my post ends and yours begins and I will show you why you are wrong, instead of just incompetent.

I used the quote function and some of the text didn't show up so I made my own quotes using cut and paste.

The text didn't show up because you can't use BB code, which is about as user friendly as it is possible to get in coding. Fix it, or don't, just don't expect me to do it for you.

I can't fix it if the text doesn't show up under a normal quote. Half the time people rep me and I click on the link and there are multiple pages on a topic and the link doesn't go to the post they gave me rep for so then I have to try to open it with Firefox or another browser. I'm sorry but I can't work miracles.

This happens with my work and home computer so I know it isn't just me.

If you don't know what you said without the board telling you then we really have a problem.

 

[Chuckt]

I met a Wikipedia editor online. He submitted documented rapture evidence to Wikipedia about the history of the doctrine and the powers that be rejected it. In my opinion that is dishonesty from Wikipedia so you can't always trust them because they won't always tell the truth. The fact that I demonstrated the error by Wikipedia because John Gill and others wrote about the rapture shows that they have faulty information that John Darby developed the rapture theory / theology. In other words, you have to do your own research or the blind will lead the blind and two will fall in the ditch.

 

[Shaarona]

I met a Wikipedia editor online. He submitted documented rapture evidence to Wikipedia about the history of the doctrine and the powers that be rejected it. In my opinion that is dishonesty from Wikipedia so you can't always trust them because they won't always tell the truth. The fact that I demonstrated the error by Wikipedia because John Gill and others wrote about the rapture shows that they have faulty information that John Darby developed the rapture theory / theology. In other words, you have to do your own research or the blind will lead the blind and two will fall in the ditch.

Some Jesuit years before Darby talked about the Rapture.. but it was very obscure stuff.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The whole church is wrong and you are right? How superior of you.

I don't consider you an authority.

It isn't the whole church. There are multiple interpretations of the timing of the rapture, they can't all be right. The fact that you dismiss that simple fact says all anyone with a brain needs to know.

But thanks for making my point.

My view is the pre-tribulational rapture of the Church. I don't apologize for the rest of the church.

You claimed I was the only one on the entire planet who doesn't agree with that.

You were wrong, and still are.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I used the quote function and some of the text didn't show up so I made my own quotes using cut and paste.

The text didn't show up because you can't use BB code, which is about as user friendly as it is possible to get in coding. Fix it, or don't, just don't expect me to do it for you.

I can't fix it if the text doesn't show up under a normal quote. Half the time people rep me and I click on the link and there are multiple pages on a topic and the link doesn't go to the post they gave me rep for so then I have to try to open it with Firefox or another browser. I'm sorry but I can't work miracles.

This happens with my work and home computer so I know it isn't just me.

If you don't know what you said without the board telling you then we really have a problem.

Sure you can, watch.

I met a Wikipedia editor online. He submitted documented rapture evidence to Wikipedia about the history of the doctrine and the powers that be rejected it. In my opinion that is dishonesty from Wikipedia so you can't always trust them because they won't always tell the truth. The fact that I demonstrated the error by Wikipedia because John Gill and others wrote about the rapture shows that they have faulty information that John Darby developed the rapture theory / theology. In other words, you have to do your own research or the blind will lead the blind and two will fall in the ditch.

That is the next post hat you make after this. I found it by scrolling down the page and then doing a copy and paste. That is because every single post in this page of this thread is down below Reply box when you quote a post. If that doesn't work, you can open a new tab, go back to the thread, and copy the appropriate text that way. You just don't want to, but that does not mean you get to tell me something I do all the time is impossible.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I met a Wikipedia editor online. He submitted documented rapture evidence to Wikipedia about the history of the doctrine and the powers that be rejected it. In my opinion that is dishonesty from Wikipedia so you can't always trust them because they won't always tell the truth. The fact that I demonstrated the error by Wikipedia because John Gill and others wrote about the rapture shows that they have faulty information that John Darby developed the rapture theory / theology. In other words, you have to do your own research or the blind will lead the blind and two will fall in the ditch.

I have a solution, don't use Wiki as a source. No one with a brain does anyway, so you will be moving up.

 

[Chuckt]

It isn't the whole church. There are multiple interpretations of the timing of the rapture, they can't all be right. The fact that you dismiss that simple fact says all anyone with a brain needs to know.

But thanks for making my point.

My view is the pre-tribulational rapture of the Church. I don't apologize for the rest of the church.

You claimed I was the only one on the entire planet who doesn't agree with that.

You were wrong, and still are.

I never used the words "only one".

 

[Chuckt]

Irenaeus

Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD) was a bishop of the church in Lyons, France. He was an eyewitness to the Apostle John (who wrote the Book of Revelation) and a disciple of Polycarp, the first of the Apostle John’s disciples. Irenaeus is most-known for his five-volume treatise, Against Heresies in which he exposed the false religions and cults of his day along with advice for how to share the Gospel with those were a part of them.

On the subject of the Rapture, in Against Heresies 5.29, he wrote:

“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;”(1) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”

Irenaeus in this passage describes the church leaving the sinful world just before unprecedented disasters. Note his use of the term “caught up” which is Rapture terminology as that is the meaning of harpazo, the term for “caught up” in the King James Bible describing the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4. He then quotes Matthew 24:21 where The Lord Jesus Christ says: “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” And it is during this time that those who convert to Christianity during the final years will receive the incorruptible crown mentioned by the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:25. In Irenaeus’ belief, the Rapture took place prior to the end times Great Tribulation.

Cyprian

Cyprian (200 AD – 258 AD) – Cyprian was Bishop of the church in Carthage. During his short stint as leader of the church, he guided the flock through intense persecution at the hands of the Roman Empire. In 258 AD after spending seven months of confinement to his home by order of Roman authorities, he was beheaded for his faith. Several of his works still exist today.

In Treatises of Cyprian he wrote in describing the end times Great Tribulation:

“We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”

What Did Ancient Church Fathers Believe About The Rapture? | Beginning And End

 

[Chuckt]

That settles it, the fake writing proves that the tribulation is after the rapture.

One blog writer says it is classified as pseudo because it is in dispute. The authority of Daniel and Isaiah gets attacked along with the New Testament as well.

Ephraim The Syrian

Ephraim (306 AD – 373 AD) was made a deacon in the church in Syria in 338 and later became the bishop of Nisibis. Although he was made a “saint” in the Roman Catholic Church, he was not involved in Catholicism and did not even live in the Roman Empire until the final years of his life. The book Pseudo Ephraim was one of his still existing works. It was called “Pseudo” because of later dispute over authorship. However the book’s one reference to the rapture is very compelling:

What Did Ancient Church Fathers Believe About The Rapture? | Beginning And End

 

[Quantum Windbag]

My view is the pre-tribulational rapture of the Church. I don't apologize for the rest of the church.

You claimed I was the only one on the entire planet who doesn't agree with that.

You were wrong, and still are.

I never used the words "only one".

Wow, another idiot that says something, and then claims his account was hacked.

How original.

The whole church is wrong and you are right?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

That settles it, the fake writing proves that the tribulation is after the rapture.

One blog writer says it is classified as pseudo because it is in dispute. The authority of Daniel and Isaiah gets attacked along with the New Testament as well.

Ephraim The Syrian

Ephraim (306 AD – 373 AD) was made a deacon in the church in Syria in 338 and later became the bishop of Nisibis. Although he was made a “saint” in the Roman Catholic Church, he was not involved in Catholicism and did not even live in the Roman Empire until the final years of his life. The book Pseudo Ephraim was one of his still existing works. It was called “Pseudo” because of later dispute over authorship. However the book’s one reference to the rapture is very compelling:

What Did Ancient Church Fathers Believe About The Rapture? | Beginning And End

It is in dispute because they can't verify the author, or the date.

Unless, that is, you think that 3 century date spread is the lifetime of one person.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Sigh. Cyprian, Irenaeus , and other Church Fathers were talking about their days of persecution and tribulation not about the future.

There is no doctrine of The Rapture developed before 1830, but if it gives one comfort, act today as if the world ends tomorrow. You will be fine then.

 

[Chuckt]

Sigh. Cyprian, Irenaeus , and other Church Fathers were talking about their days of persecution and tribulation not about the future.

There is no doctrine of The Rapture developed before 1830, but if it gives one comfort, act today as if the world ends tomorrow. You will be fine then.

Why doesn't Dr. John Gill qualify?