Everyone should be in favor of reducing taxes on the "rich"

[Shogun]

Do you really not get how cost saving measures help a business and buy extension help it's employees?

HA!

yea dude! The American auto worker sure the fuck validates that HELP! You'd be one funny man if your jokes were not so pathetic.



Again using extremes doesn't give you much credibility. You know and I know Java programmers are far from the only jobs in demand in the country.


I'm using the example given by the master fucking programmer in this thread, dude. Tell me how your 45 year old unskilled labor worker uncle is going to hop into the fucking tech industry. Tell me how an unemployed contractor is going to mozzy on into the fucking nursing industry. YOU seem to think that everyone is a replacable cog in your capitalist wheel and thats simply not the case. We have a spectrum of ability in EVERY culture and there WILL be a great many people who are not fucking java programmers. THOSE people need decent jobs too. THEIR ability to spend income is multiplied by a greater population that you dumb fucking capitalists could EVER offer with your "oh but now we are specialized" bullshit. Face it. Your game is over.


Another simple question: if you don't adapt or something keeps you from haveing to adapt, what will happen to you?


You do realize that the evolutionary model you are taking that logic from REQUIRES the killing off of outmoded fucking actors, right? You act like there was no such thing as innovation before we started importing cheap plastic shit from China. Ford and Chevy STILL competed. And will still compete when tariffs protect the American SOL against your Calcutta beggars triangle scheme.


I never didn't admit it, it's kind of a given in our pseudo-free market system. Businesses need to maximize profits and will stay loyal for as long as they can afford to. Pretty simple.


Indeed, and so are the reasons that your message only tickles the fancy of those top percentages that are a stark minority in the voting booth.



Yes how unreasonable to ask people to share a modicum of foresight. Let's take an extreme case. Little Johnny wants to go to school to be a painter. There probably won't be a huge demand for his work, but according to you we should prop little Johnny up anyway even though he CHOSE a profession that will make it fairly difficult to maintain much of a standard of living.



No, your logic is fucked up. What we DONT do is hire mexicans or indians or the chinese to come over and paint our fucking houses for pennies on the dollar because 25 cents USD is like a goddamn fortune in their homeland. We purge THAT bullshit from the market and let Johny compete with other AMERICANS who chose the same profession. THOSE AMERICAN PAINTERS will still maintain their SOL rather than be undercut by the goddamn squalor found in the Mexican cheap labor option.

way to fail, once again, dude.

 

[Bern80]

Yes of course both our economies rely solely on automobiles. Way to miss the point completely.

Im comparing SPECIFIC markets. Which of us is missing the point again?

How convenient for you.

Hey, i have no problem with exporting a comparable amount to what we IMPORT. But, I guess this is where you totally fucking avoid the relative import/export numbers I bolded and made a larger font size, eh? And YOU seem to think that your jargon, in light of evidence, makes any difference to anyone but you. You wanna hide behind definitions and nomenclature then so be it. You still fucking fail, dude.

You expect a country that has less then half of our population to import a comparable amount to what we do?

Of course not. AND, in reverse, would WE BE SUFFERING ECONOMICALLY IF THEY WERE BUYING A COMPARABLE FUCKING AMOUNT OF STUFF?

AGAIN.. HERE ARE THE FUCKING NUMBERS:

US$145.5 billion
US62.7 billion


DO THE FUCKING MATH.

How about you do the fucking math. Again is it reasonable to expect that a nation that has less than half of the people would import the same amount that we do? Of course not. Again look at the fucking numbers. They have about 43% (300 million/130million) of our population and WOW isn't that fucking amazing they import exactley 43% as much as we do (62.7 billion/145.5billion.

They would have to find another nation to take advantage of in their close market system. Another nation that is NOT the United Fucking States.

So obviously you want us to be strong exporters. How much is Japan going to want to import from us once we have squeezed their products out of the American market?

 

[sealybobo]

The gop said taxes and regulations were killing business. So for 8 years they went tax free and unregulated, and funny how it is biting them in the ass now.

would be funny, but it is my economy too.

Right wingers. Do you like that Aig had to be socialized? We now own it.

 

[Skull Pilot]

The gop said taxes and regulations were killing business. So for 8 years they went tax free and unregulated, and funny how it is biting them in the ass now.

would be funny, but it is my economy too.

Right wingers. Do you like that Aig had to be socialized? We now own it.

it actually sucks and sets us on a slippery slope but at least uncle sam will have to pay me out for my insurance policies.

that's a cool million tax free that uncle sam will give back to my family when i croak

 

[Bern80]

The gop said taxes and regulations were killing business. So for 8 years they went tax free and unregulated, and funny how it is biting them in the ass now.

would be funny, but it is my economy too.

Right wingers. Do you like that Aig had to be socialized? We now own it.

I think it is evidence of exactley what I've been saying. The free market requires a level of responsibility. This downturn is not a result of the failure of the free market. It result of people not behaving responsibily in one, including big businesses. We were on top of grossly inflated housing bubble because a) people were trying to get into homes they couldn't afford and b) mortgage lenders were allowing these same people to take out incredibly risky homes.

To find out if regulation or lack there of is to blame, we would have to know if there were regulations in place before hand that would have prevented it (i.e. would we have had a policy in place that said something like you can not lend to someone with a credit score of X). These would interesting things to find out. What I do know is that in some cases some lending institutions started regulating themeselves. Many of my friends from college started out loan officers for a lending institution. As the institution saw this coming they became more stringent on there loan requirements.

 

[Skull Pilot]

I think it is evidence of exactley what I've been saying. The free market requires a level of responsibility. This downturn is not a result of the failure of the free market. It result of people not behaving responsibily in one, including big businesses. We were on top of grossly inflated housing bubble because a) people were trying to get into homes they couldn't afford and b) mortgage lenders were allowing these same people to take out incredibly risky homes.

To find out if regulation or lack there of is to blame, we would have to know if there were regulations in place before hand that would have prevented it (i.e. would we have had a policy in place that said something like you can not lend to someone with a credit score of X). These would interesting things to find out. What I do know is that in some cases some lending institutions started regulating themeselves. Many of my friends from college started out loan officers for a lending institution. As the institution saw this coming they became more stringent on there loan requirements.

bern,

don't try to explain this to the libbies. all they know is that BHO told them that it's the republicans' fault.

when you tell them that there are actual reasons why things happen, it's like telling a 4 year old there is no Santa. All you get is crying and thumb sucking.

 

[Bern80]

yea dude! The American auto worker sure the fuck validates that HELP! You'd be one funny man if your jokes were not so pathetic.

They weren't turning a profit. Pretty hard to keep people employed if they can't do that. Tariffs aren't going to lower Ford's cost of doing business, it just eliminates choice for the consumer.

using the example given by the master fucking programmer in this thread, dude. Tell me how your 45 year old unskilled labor worker uncle is going to hop into the fucking tech industry. Tell me how an unemployed contractor is going to mozzy on into the fucking nursing industry.

Why do they have to hop into tech or nursing? it is you narrow mind that wants to doom people, not me. Please explain again to me what your victim mentality is accomplishing for you

YOU seem to think that everyone is a replacable cog in your capitalist wheel and thats simply not the case. We have a spectrum of ability in EVERY culture and there WILL be a great many people who are not fucking java programmers. THOSE people need decent jobs too. THEIR ability to spend income is multiplied by a greater population that you dumb fucking capitalists could EVER offer with your "oh but now we are specialized" bullshit. Face it. Your game is over.

No. I think most people are capable of more than they give themselves credit for, you are evidence enough of that.

No, your logic is fucked up. What we DONT do is hire mexicans or indians or the chinese to come over and paint our fucking houses for pennies on the dollar because 25 cents USD is like a goddamn fortune in their homeland. We purge THAT bullshit from the market and let Johny compete with other AMERICANS who chose the same profession. THOSE AMERICAN PAINTERS will still maintain their SOL rather than be undercut by the goddamn squalor found in the Mexican cheap labor option.

way to fail, once again, dude.

You do realize that most AMERICANS will be MEXICANS in the next 30 years or so right? You are again complaining about the plight of the poor yet you demand the poor pay more for services that can be done just as well by labor that costs less? You go tell poor JOHNNY you're not going to let him save money because he can buy only American. I'm sure it will be an uplifting, patriotic experience for him.

 

[Bern80]

bern,

don't try to explain this to the libbies. all they know is that BHO told them that it's the republicans' fault.

when you tell them that there are actual reasons why things happen, it's like telling a 4 year old there is no Santa. All you get is crying and thumb sucking.

Oh they acknowledge there are reasons. It just seem they never have much to do with people. I don't see how we can prevent this from happening again if people don't acknowledge that they are at least partially to blame for not educating themselves as to the risk of the loans they took out.

In the big picture, I think this has a lot do with haveing a financially illiterate nation. People just don't understand money. I.E. you know what they say about interest; people who understand it, earn it. People who don't, pay it.

 

[dilloduck]

Oh they acknowledge there are reasons. It just seem they never have much to do with people. I don't see how we can prevent this from happening again if people don't acknowledge that they are at least partially to blame for not educating themselves as to the risk of the loans they took out.

In the big picture, I think this has a lot do with haveing a financially illiterate nation. People just don't understand money. I.E. you know what they say about interest; people who understand it, earn it. People who don't, pay it.

Agreed---we live in a primarily capitalist economy yet kids coming out of high school have no clue how to function in one.

 

[editec]

Looks to me like the stock market is doing a wonderful job of reducing the taxes on the rich right now.

Should we all be happy?

 

[Bern80]

Looks to me like the stock market is doing a wonderful job of reducing the taxes on the rich right now.

Should we all be happy?

I'm sure you think that's cute. I'm also sure with a little logic employed you can see right through it like the rest of us.

 

[sealybobo]

I'm sure you think that's cute. I'm also sure with a little logic employed you can see right through it like the rest of us.

As far as the middle class goes, you Republicans have been wrong on every issue. When will you start using logic?

 

[Shogun]

How convenient for you.

whatsa matter big guy? didn't have a nifty piece of rhetoric in your quiver to reply with?



You expect a country that has less then half of our population to import a comparable amount to what we do?



If WE import double the amount of their product to OUR detriment then yes. Poor guy.. Are the number just not easily thrown against your wall of rhetorical bullshit?



How about you do the fucking math. Again is it reasonable to expect that a nation that has less than half of the people would import the same amount that we do? Of course not. Again look at the fucking numbers. They have about 43% (300 million/130million) of our population and WOW isn't that fucking amazing they import exactley 43% as much as we do (62.7 billion/145.5billion.


Actually, yes. It is. If they CANT consume as much as we do then we cap of OUR imports to a comparable level. WE are not obligated to consume japanese goods just so YOU can pad the wallets of the wealthy 2%. THIS, again, is a concrete reason why your fucking philosophy fails.



So obviously you want us to be strong exporters. How much is Japan going to want to import from us once we have squeezed their products out of the American market?



Clearly, since what the import NOW isn't proving to benefit the US, they will come to understand that turnabout is fairplay. It's not like Japan's protectionism is a fucking state secret. It's not like we can EXPECT their market to change any time soon. You don't trade at a fucking deficit and pretend that it's not going to impact the fucking nation, stupid.



oh.. BY THE WAY...


End of an Era

In fact, it really does look as if the foundations of US capitalism have shattered. Since 1864, American banking has been split into commercial banks and investment banks. But now that's changing. Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers, Merrill Lynch -- overnight, some of the biggest names on Wall Street have disappeared into thin air. Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley are the only giants left standing. Despite tolerable quarterly results, even they have been hurt by mysterious slumps in prices and -- at least in Morgan Stanley's case -- have prepared themselves for the end.

"Nothing will ever be like it was before," said James Allroy, a broker who was brooding over his chai latte at a Starbucks on Wall Street. "The world as we know it is going under."

Many are drawing comparisons with the Great Depression, the national trauma that has been the benchmark for everything since. "I think it has the chance to be the worst period of time since 1929," financing legend Donald Trump told CNN. And the Wall Street Journal seconds that opinion, giving one story the title: "Worst Crisis Since '30s, With No End Yet in Sight."

But what's happening? Experts have so far been unable to agree on any conclusions. Is this the beginning of the end? Or is it just a painful, but normal cycle correcting the excesses of recent years? Does responsibility lie with the ratings agencies, which have been overvaluing financial institutions for a long time? Or did dubious short sellers manipulate stock prices -- after all, they were suspected of having caused the last stock market crisis in July.

The only thing that is certain is that the era of the unbridled free-market economy in the US has passed -- at least for now. The near nationalization of AIG, America's largest insurance company, with an $85 billion cash infusion -- a bill footed by taxpayers -- was a staggering move. The sum is three times as high as the guarantee provided by the Federal Reserve when Bear Stearns was sold to JPMorgan Chase in March.

US Financial Crisis: 'The World As We Know It Is Going Down' - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

 

[Shogun]

They weren't turning a profit. Pretty hard to keep people employed if they can't do that. Tariffs aren't going to lower Ford's cost of doing business, it just eliminates choice for the consumer.

and they weren't turning a profit because, SAY IT WITH ME, the cost of an AMERICAN standard of living mandated the AMERICAN cost of labor which was undermined by the LOWER cost of FOREIGN labor and LOWER COST OF FOREIGN SOLs. No, Tariffs won't lower prices. But they WILL put more AMERICANS back to work who can spend more in the US ECONOMY than japanese auto workers by restricting the presence of japan's products into our market. The consumer STILL had choices BEFORE we started selling out the US with your bullshit free market capitalism, dude. Why must you pretend that there were not a range of Auto options in the US in 1954?


Why do they have to hop into tech or nursing? it is you narrow mind that wants to doom people, not me. Please explain again to me what your victim mentality is accomplishing for you



uh, because those are the only options in this "global economy" right buddy? Scroll the fuck up. I used exactly the suggestions made by your little buddy. I tellya.. nothing says NOT A VICTIM quite like the fucking housing market meltdown!

I know I know.. hey, just TAKE your economic depression stoically like a fucking HILTON would, right?





No. I think most people are capable of more than they give themselves credit for, you are evidence enough of that.



And I think you seriously misrepresent the entire spectrum of people who are not all uniformly replaceable in every new field that you think just takes a couple years retraining to accomplish. You will probably never have the capacity to be a brain surgeon. If thats the only career opportunity left in the US should everyone else just DEAL with it? If we don't retain AMERICAN employment in production then we undermine an entire population of our society as SEE THE ABSOLUTE DECIMATION OF THE MIDDLE CLASS. But hey.. it's not like THAT message has been in the news lately, eh?



You do realize that most AMERICANS will be MEXICANS in the next 30 years or so right? You are again complaining about the plight of the poor yet you demand the poor pay more for services that can be done just as well by labor that costs less? You go tell poor JOHNNY you're not going to let him save money because he can buy only American. I'm sure it will be an uplifting, patriotic experience for him.


what the fuck are you talking about? AMERICANS, Spanish-mexican in ethnicity or not, are still AMERICANS. Did you just try to validate NAFTA with some open border carrot, repulican? the plight of the MEXICAN poor are not my concern. AND THE US should not have to bleed to death just so YOUR kind can turn a few more percentage points in profit. LABOR THAT COSTS LESS? yea, MEXICAN, NOT AMERICAN, labor that doesn't facilitate a stable MIDDLE CLASS but rather lowers OUR SOL to that of a fucking MEXICAN ghetto. Good grief, dude. you ARE desperate, aren't you? Indeed, when JOHHNY is employed and actually making more than a wal mart service job because HIS EMPLOYMENT wasn't shipped off to the fucking mexican ghetto I'm quite sure he will be able to save more than he could ever manage in a fucking wal mart checkout lane.

 

[Bern80]

Actually, yes. It is. If they CANT consume as much as we do then we cap of OUR imports to a comparable level. WE are not obligated to consume japanese goods just so YOU can pad the wallets of the wealthy 2%. THIS, again, is a concrete reason why your fucking philosophy fails.

Importing doesn't pad any American's wallet dumbass, we are buying from THEM. We aren't importing it under obligation now. We are importing it because people want to buy it. I knew this spin was going to be pretty amazing. First you point to Japan as this beacon of how well isolationism works, when they in fact aren't isolationist at all, then you YOU post import numbers and expect that they should be the same despite them having not even half our population.

And so your solution is then to cap our imports to equal theres since they can't import more. Let's what you've accomplished. Well you've eliminated choice and competition for one, always good ways to keep prices down for consumers. Even though people want something you are going tell them no they can't buy it, because it's for their own good. Not too mention that our economy depends on exporting as well and if the goal is to increase our exports it really doesn't do us many favors to give other countries reasons to not trade with us.

oh.. BY THE WAY...


End of an Era

In fact, it really does look as if the foundations of US capitalism have shattered. Since 1864, American banking has been split into commercial banks and investment banks. But now that's changing. Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers, Merrill Lynch -- overnight, some of the biggest names on Wall Street have disappeared into thin air. Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley are the only giants left standing. Despite tolerable quarterly results, even they have been hurt by mysterious slumps in prices and -- at least in Morgan Stanley's case -- have prepared themselves for the end.

"Nothing will ever be like it was before," said James Allroy, a broker who was brooding over his chai latte at a Starbucks on Wall Street. "The world as we know it is going under."

Many are drawing comparisons with the Great Depression, the national trauma that has been the benchmark for everything since. "I think it has the chance to be the worst period of time since 1929," financing legend Donald Trump told CNN. And the Wall Street Journal seconds that opinion, giving one story the title: "Worst Crisis Since '30s, With No End Yet in Sight."

But what's happening? Experts have so far been unable to agree on any conclusions. Is this the beginning of the end? Or is it just a painful, but normal cycle correcting the excesses of recent years? Does responsibility lie with the ratings agencies, which have been overvaluing financial institutions for a long time? Or did dubious short sellers manipulate stock prices -- after all, they were suspected of having caused the last stock market crisis in July.

The only thing that is certain is that the era of the unbridled free-market economy in the US has passed -- at least for now. The near nationalization of AIG, America's largest insurance company, with an $85 billion cash infusion -- a bill footed by taxpayers -- was a staggering move. The sum is three times as high as the guarantee provided by the Federal Reserve when Bear Stearns was sold to JPMorgan Chase in March.

US Financial Crisis: 'The World As We Know It Is Going Down' - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

Only true if we actually had an unbridled free-market economy. Which we don't.

 

[Shogun]

Importing doesn't pad any American's wallet dumbass, we are buying from THEM. We aren't importing it under obligation now. We are importing it because people want to buy it. I knew this spin was going to be pretty amazing. First you point to Japan as this beacon of how well isolationism works, when they in fact aren't isolationist at all, then you YOU post import numbers and expect that they should be the same despite them having not even half our population.


Are you stupid or crazy? Importing Japanese goods at a lower cost than American goods PADS A FUCKING WALLET. See Wal Mart. Also, JAPAN ISN:T AN ISOLATIONIST MARKET?

Isolationist tendencies threatening to turn Japan into a 'subprime state'
By JOCHEN LEGEWIE
Although the word "subprime" may have been understood only by a few industry insiders a few months ago, it is certainly entering the global lexicon with some force these days. Governments around the world have been deploring the state of their economies, usually invoking the dreaded problem as a key factor.
In Japan, recent trends toward isolationism — even xenophobia — are adding a new dimension to the term.
By raising barriers to foreign investment and impeding the flow of foreign nationals, Japan, as a nation, is at risk of becoming a "subprime state."
Isolationist tendencies threatening to turn Japan into a 'subprime state'| The Japan Times Online


Hegemony of stronger states. Smaller Southeast Asian states allegedly feel threatened by China's growing economic power and Japan's isolationist economic policy
Asia Times Online :: Global Economy



Gosh, bern.. maybe you shoudl take your head out of the asses of your free market masters sometimes.. you could use some oxygen. And yes, DESPITE relative population the rate of comparable importing MUST be similar or ONE OF US LOSES OUT. Guess which one is CLEARLY losing out in the AUTO market. So, it's a FACT that Japan's Isolationism IS a benefit to THEIR economy.




And so your solution is then to cap our imports to equal theres since they can't import more. Let's what you've accomplished. Well you've eliminated choice and competition for one, always good ways to keep prices down for consumers. Even though people want something you are going tell them no they can't buy it, because it's for their own good. Not too mention that our economy depends on exporting as well and if the goal is to increase our exports it really doesn't do us many favors to give other countries reasons to not trade with us.


No, again, CONSUMERS HAVE AMERICAN CHOICES. AND competition STILL occurs with AMERICAN options. Are you really so batshit stupid that you want to ignore that FORDS AND CHEVYS COMPETE? THAT SPRINT AND AT&T COMPETE? THAT WE HAVE COMPETING RETAIL LOCATIONS THAT DONT REQUIRE A JAPANESE FUCKING COMPANY TO SELL GOODS? I used to think you had something to say about economics, Bern. Now it's clear that you are a scrambling, befuddled bitch whose rhetoric and assumptions just doesn't gel with the facts of life. PRICES FOR CONSUMERS SUPPORT A STANDARD OF LIVING GREATER THAN A MEXICAN FUCKING HOVEL BERN. Indeed, and a fucking STEEL WORKER about "their own good" after you validated buying EU steel and disregarded THEIR AMERICAN EMPLOYEMENT. And, again stupid, if those countries are using OUR consumption like a tick uses a dog's nutsack instead of trading at an equitable rate then BOO FUCKING HOO. I'm not willing to sell out AMERICA so you can drive a cheap toyota. Guess how the rest of us are feeling these days, motherfucker. Time to pack you bags.





Only true if we actually had an unbridled free-market economy. Which we don't.



Hey.. feel free to shoot them an email, buddy. You ARE the fucking expert!

 

[Bern80]

Importing doesn't pad any American's wallet dumbass, we are buying from THEM. We aren't importing it under obligation now. We are importing it because people want to buy it. I knew this spin was going to be pretty amazing. First you point to Japan as this beacon of how well isolationism works, when they in fact aren't isolationist at all, then you YOU post import numbers and expect that they should be the same despite them having not even half our population.


Are you stupid or crazy? Importing Japanese goods at a lower cost than American goods PADS A FUCKING WALLET. See Wal Mart. Also, JAPAN ISN:T AN ISOLATIONIST MARKET?

Isolationist tendencies threatening to turn Japan into a 'subprime state'
By JOCHEN LEGEWIE
Although the word "subprime" may have been understood only by a few industry insiders a few months ago, it is certainly entering the global lexicon with some force these days. Governments around the world have been deploring the state of their economies, usually invoking the dreaded problem as a key factor.
In Japan, recent trends toward isolationism — even xenophobia — are adding a new dimension to the term.
By raising barriers to foreign investment and impeding the flow of foreign nationals, Japan, as a nation, is at risk of becoming a "subprime state."
Isolationist tendencies threatening to turn Japan into a 'subprime state'| The Japan Times Online


Hegemony of stronger states. Smaller Southeast Asian states allegedly feel threatened by China's growing economic power and Japan's isolationist economic policy
Asia Times Online :: Global Economy



Gosh, bern.. maybe you shoudl take your head out of the asses of your free market masters sometimes.. you could use some oxygen. And yes, DESPITE relative population the rate of comparable importing MUST be similar or ONE OF US LOSES OUT. Guess which one is CLEARLY losing out in the AUTO market. So, it's a FACT that Japan's Isolationism IS a benefit to THEIR economy.

Okay you just posted an article that supposedly confirms that Japan is isolationist. Did you miss the theme in the article that isolationism could be BAD FOR THEM, Mr. We-need-to-be-more-isolationist?

No, again, CONSUMERS HAVE AMERICAN CHOICES. AND competition STILL occurs with AMERICAN options. Are you really so batshit stupid that you want to ignore that FORDS AND CHEVYS COMPETE? THAT SPRINT AND AT&T COMPETE? THAT WE HAVE COMPETING RETAIL LOCATIONS THAT DONT REQUIRE A JAPANESE FUCKING COMPANY TO SELL GOODS? I used to think you had something to say about economics, Bern. Now it's clear that you are a scrambling, befuddled bitch whose rhetoric and assumptions just doesn't gel with the facts of life. PRICES FOR CONSUMERS SUPPORT A STANDARD OF LIVING GREATER THAN A MEXICAN FUCKING HOVEL BERN. Indeed, and a fucking STEEL WORKER about "their own good" after you validated buying EU steel and disregarded THEIR AMERICAN EMPLOYEMENT. And, again stupid, if those countries are using OUR consumption like a tick uses a dog's nutsack instead of trading at an equitable rate then BOO FUCKING HOO. I'm not willing to sell out AMERICA so you can drive a cheap toyota. Guess how the rest of us are feeling these days, motherfucker. Time to pack you bags.

Spin it how ever you need to. 1 from 3 is still 2. Just think about your plan for one Goddamn minute instead of coming up with your next best witty name calling phrase. We enact a bunch of tariffs that for the immediate present will save some jobs. Let's use your auto industry and take a pool of 100 assembly line workers that make $50,000 (real life accuracy of these number isn't going to matter for purposes of this argument). Let's say, oh, 30 of these assembly line workers are laid off due toyotas being more competitive. Now presumabley they will get their jobs back thanks to your tariffs. So we are back to 100 people makeing 50k a year instead of just 70 people. You have already admitted these steps won't reduce the cost of production and thus the cost to the consumer of a Ford.

So we already know people who actually do have jobs are also hurting, how does this help their financial problems, how does it improve their standard of living? You have accomplished one thing and one thing only, you have temporarily raised the SOL of small group of people, nothing changes for anyone else, other than they now have been forced into reducing their disposable income more so than what they would have had to had another competitor been allowed in the market.

 

[Shogun]

Okay you just posted an article that supposedly confirms that Japan is isolationist. Did you miss the theme in the article that isolationism could be BAD FOR THEM, Mr. We-need-to-be-more-isolationist?


no i didn't miss it at all. Hell, you are not the only asshole with a capitalist hardon to cry like a bitch when the reality on the ground doesn't meet your predictions. My point was to provide evidence that, once again, your claim that Japan was nOT a closes system was about as valuable as AIG stock today. You are not half as slippery as you'd like to be.



Spin it how ever you need to. 1 from 3 is still 2. Just think about your plan for one Goddamn minute instead of coming up with your next best witty name calling phrase. We enact a bunch of tariffs that for the immediate present will save some jobs. Let's use your auto industry and take a pool of 100 assembly line workers that make $50,000 (real life accuracy of these number isn't going to matter for purposes of this argument). Let's say, oh, 30 of these assembly line workers are laid off due toyotas being more competitive. Now presumabley they will get their jobs back thanks to your tariffs. So we are back to 100 people makeing 50k a year instead of just 70 people. You have already admitted these steps won't reduce the cost of production and thus the cost to the consumer of a Ford.


Disregard the FACT of pre-globalization excuse American economic facts all you need to. When 1, 2 AND 3 reduce the SOL of 2 and 3 then 1 gets das boot. Cry me a river, dude. Indeed, it WILL save AMERICAN jobs. Not just SOME. Will a mexican lose his ford job in mexico? Sure. Guess how much I give a fuck about that while you sit there rationalizing the American SOL lowered to that of a goddamn mexican ghetto.

Indeed, by removing the PRESENCE of cheap toyotas both AMERICAN companies who facilitate those 100 50k/year employees will still ahve to compete with each other. MEANWHILE, those 100 employees have 50/year to blow on AMERICAN goods instead of 100 employees making 26k per year selling chinese goods.

economic impact of this compared amount able to be spent by AMERICAN CONSUMERS on, you know, things like HOUSES and CARS and shit like that.

50k * 100 = $5,000,000

vs.

26k * 100 = $2,600,000


So we already know people who actually do have jobs are also hurting, how does this help their financial problems, how does it improve their standard of living? You have accomplished one thing and one thing only, you have temporarily raised the SOL of small group of people, nothing changes for anyone else, other than they now have been forced into reducing their disposable income more so than what they would have had to had another competitor been allowed in the market.


SMALL GROUP OF PEOPLE? you think the entire eviscerated fucking middle class is a SMALL GROUP OF PEOPLE? Compared to the capitalist bastards YOU defend? gimme a break, dude. Your fatass, chicken necked CEO will have to pay tarifs for the imported goods he wants. Isn't that the premise of your lame fucking FAIR TAX anyway? Consumption taxes for rarer goods? It's no more temporary than what we saw in the greatest generation. And, since the middle class ARE larger than your 2%, and can ONLY assimilate the lower classes since we know damn well that your little orphan annie pipedream sure the fuck isn't a standard... well, again, you lose. Rich people don't drive fucking toyotas, dude. Your entire position is like a shark net drudging for minnows.

 

[Bern80]

no i didn't miss it at all. Hell, you are not the only asshole with a capitalist hardon to cry like a bitch when the reality on the ground doesn't meet your predictions. My point was to provide evidence that, once again, your claim that Japan was nOT a closes system was about as valuable as AIG stock today. You are not half as slippery as you'd like to be.

I understand perfectly what you are trying to point out. Hell I'll even accept that they are becoming more isolationist, but they are still importing and exporting last I checked. I guess if I were looking for evidence of something I would keep looking until I found something that didn't say EXACLTEY THE OPPOSITE of what I've been touting for a dozen posts or so.

SMALL GROUP OF PEOPLE? you think the entire eviscerated fucking middle class is a SMALL GROUP OF PEOPLE? Compared to the capitalist bastards YOU defend? gimme a break, dude. Your fatass, chicken necked CEO will have to pay tarifs for the imported goods he wants. Isn't that the premise of your lame fucking FAIR TAX anyway? Consumption taxes for rarer goods? It's no more temporary than what we saw in the greatest generation. And, since the middle class ARE larger than your 2%, and can ONLY assimilate the lower classes since we know damn well that your little orphan annie pipedream sure the fuck isn't a standard... well, again, you lose. Rich people don't drive fucking toyotas, dude. Your entire position is like a shark net drudging for minnows.

That isn't the group of people you are helping though you have admitted that. We know you have accomplished the goal of bring back jobs and yes the amount of jobless out there is still pretty small. You have given people that had no money some money. But in these economic times it is also hard for people WITH jobs, how does this help them? You haven't reduced the cost of production in any way and nothing in your policy will improve a companies ability to do things like give raises or increase productivity to enough to hire new workers. So again yes all you have done is give the jobless jobs as far as I can tell. What SPECIFICALLY have you done to reduce the financial burdens of everyone else?

 

[Shogun]

I understand perfectly what you are trying to point out. Hell I'll even accept that they are becoming more isolationist, but they are still importing and exporting last I checked. I guess if I were looking for evidence of something I would keep looking until I found something that didn't say EXACLTEY THE OPPOSITE of what I've been touting for a dozen posts or so.

well, YOU would also sell out America for a few extra dollars too so.. I guess you'll have to forgive me for proving my point about Japan's economy without trying to get hung up on similar failed opinons to yours.



That isn't the group of people you are helping though you have admitted that. We know you have accomplished the goal of bring back jobs and yes the amount of jobless out there is still pretty small. You have given people that had no money some money. But in these economic times it is also hard for people WITH jobs, how does this help them? You haven't reduced the cost of production in any way and nothing in your policy will improve a companies ability to do things like give raises or increase productivity to enough to hire new workers. So again yes all you have done is give the jobless jobs as far as I can tell. What SPECIFICALLY have you done to reduce the financial burdens of everyone else?



"in these economic times" are the product of your free market capitalism. Closing the gaping fucking wound WOULD ALLOW EVEN THOSE OF THE MIDDLE CLASS WITH JOBS TO FLOURISH BECAUSE THERE WOULD BE MORE LOCAL LOPTIONS AND COMPETITION. for fucks sake, are you REALLY going to try and pretend that WAL MART didn't kill off the COMPETITION of the local fucking maytag store versus the local fucking Montgommery ward? The LOCAL grocery stores? You know.. those MOM AND POP STORES THAT WERE THE SECOND CASUALTY OF YOUR RHETORICAL BULLSHIT? do you think SEARS and FAMOUS BAR are foreign fucking names, dude? Do you think COKE AND PEPSI NEED A FUCKING JAPANESE BEVERAGE IN ORDER TO COMPETE with each other? Are the prices of BUD AND MILLER SKY HIGH BECAUSE SAPPORO IS NOT OFFERED AT A CHEAPER RATE? The list goes on, dude.

And, the amount of jobless, paired with the amount of Americans who've seen a drastic loss in their annual salaries for the sake of foreign competition (construction, manufacturing, etc) are not a small sample of this population. It's a fucking joke that you'd asume as much.

Reducing The cost of production is not my goal. You wanna reduce the cost of something? reduce the cost of management and CEOs. Your top end is rationalized despite it's failures to your own demise. It's not a worker who decides not to build a fucking smaller compact car instead of hulking fucking SUVs. Say, what do THOSE salaries and severence packages look like on the cost of business, dude? oh.. yea.. we don't want to think about that.

Giving the jobless jobs.. Hey, worked during the new deal.. just like capitalism FAILED bringing us the depression! Gosh, it's a fucking mystery BERN!