Even the government itself admitted in the 70's there was a conspiracy to kill JFK.

[georgephillip]

Fwiw...

"Another popular criticism of the Warren Commission was that internal dissent was suppressed. Commission member Senator Richard Russell was the most prominent dissenter, inclined to challenge the conclusions of the Warren Report, flatly rejecting the single-bullet theory.

"In a taped phone conversation between Russell and LBJ on 18 September 1964, just before release of the Warren Report, the president asked Russell why he had recently left town in a rush, with Russell explaining it was due to his frustration with the commission:

BEGIN QUOTE:

RR: Well, I was just worn out, fightin' over that damn report ... they were trying to prove that same bullet that hit Kennedy fust was the one that hit Connally ... went through him and through his hand, his bone, into his leg and everything else. Just lot of stuff there ... I hadn't, couldn't, didn't hear all the evidence, and cross-examine all of them, but I did read the record ... But we got you a pretty good report.

LBJ: Well, what difference does it make which bullet got Connally?

RR: Well, it don't make much difference. But they said that ... the same bullet that hit Kennedy hit Connally. Well, I don't believe it.

LBJ: I don't either. [LBJ had not received nor read the Warren Report at this time.]

RR: And so I couldn't sign it. And I said that Governor Connally testified directly to the contrary, and I'm not gonna approve of that. So I finally made 'em say there was a difference in the Commission, in that part of 'em believed that, that wasn't so ... But anyhow, that's just a little thang, but we --

LBJ: What's the net of the whole thing? What it say? That Oswald did it, and he did it for any reason?

RR: Well, just what he was a general misanthropic fella ... that he'd had never been satisfied anywheah he was on Earth, in Russia or heah, and that he had a desire to get his name in history and all. I don't think you'll be displeased with the report. It's too long, but it's a ... whole volume.

LBJ: Unanimous?

RR: Yessir. I tried mah best to get in a dissent, but they'd come 'round and trade me out of it by givin' me a little ole' thread of it."

[22.0] The Warren Commission (2)

 

[Anitabeme]

The CIA is the citizens of the USA's greatest enemy.

That's an understatement.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

The CIA is the citizens of the USA's greatest enemy.

That's an understatement.

No. That's a vapid thought. It's far from an "understatement."

The CIA may pose some dangers. They should be closely monitored. You know: checks and balances, and oversight?

But we can't really afford to be without an intelligence agency in the world in this day and age.

Moonbat isn't right. He or she is just shallow and silly.

 

[Rat in the Hat]

And now to interrupt this retarded thread with a musical interlude.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtGKfCzU9gg]Hitler - Gangnam Style (?????) Parody - YouTube[/ame]


We now return you to the lunacy already in progress.

 

[namvet]

The Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza

Home | The Sixth Floor Museum

if you ever get the chance, go see it. I did years back on a business trip. for historical purposes Dealey Plaza looks today the exact same as it did that day. in pristine condition. I paid my ticket price and went up to the sixth floor. and i stood in the window next to the one where Ozwald was. the media claimed this shot requied some sort of expert with a rifle from long range. i didn't see it that way. it was at best just an average distance requiring no real special skill. IMO. I also went out on the street and stood on a small slab they claimed Zapruder filmed it. looking back towards the sixth floor it just was not that far away to me.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGzCNg1OEww]A Photographer's Story: Bob Jackson and the Kennedy Assassination - YouTube[/ame]

 

[georgephillip]

The Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza

Home | The Sixth Floor Museum

if you ever get the chance, go see it. I did years back on a business trip. for historical purposes Dealey Plaza looks today the exact same as it did that day. in pristine condition. I paid my ticket price and went up to the sixth floor. and i stood in the window next to the one where Ozwald was. the media claimed this shot requied some sort of expert with a rifle from long range. i didn't see it that way. it was at best just an average distance requiring no real special skill. IMO. I also went out on the street and stood on a small slab they claimed Zapruder filmed it. looking back towards the sixth floor it just was not that far away to me.

A Photographer's Story: Bob Jackson and the Kennedy Assassination - YouTube

What about the time required to fire three shots with a bolt action rifle?

"From Houston Street, the presidential limousine made the planned left turn onto Elm Street, allowing it access to the Stemmons Freeway exit. As it turned on Elm, the motorcade passed the Texas School Book Depository. Shots were fired at President Kennedy as they continued down Elm Street.

"A clear majority of witnesses recalled hearing three shots.[15]

"A minority of the witnesses did recognize the first gunshot blast they heard as a weapon blast, but there was hardly any reaction to the first shot from a majority of the people in the crowd or those riding in the motorcade itself. Many later said they heard what they first thought to be a firecracker or the exhaust backfire of a vehicle just after the President started waving."

Assassination of John F. Kennedy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If millions of Americans had seen the Zapruder film on their local news within a week of JFK's murder, do you think we would be having this conversation today?

 

[namvet]

The Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza

Home | The Sixth Floor Museum

if you ever get the chance, go see it. I did years back on a business trip. for historical purposes Dealey Plaza looks today the exact same as it did that day. in pristine condition. I paid my ticket price and went up to the sixth floor. and i stood in the window next to the one where Ozwald was. the media claimed this shot requied some sort of expert with a rifle from long range. i didn't see it that way. it was at best just an average distance requiring no real special skill. IMO. I also went out on the street and stood on a small slab they claimed Zapruder filmed it. looking back towards the sixth floor it just was not that far away to me.

A Photographer's Story: Bob Jackson and the Kennedy Assassination - YouTube

What about the time required to fire three shots with a bolt action rifle?

"From Houston Street, the presidential limousine made the planned left turn onto Elm Street, allowing it access to the Stemmons Freeway exit. As it turned on Elm, the motorcade passed the Texas School Book Depository. Shots were fired at President Kennedy as they continued down Elm Street.

"A clear majority of witnesses recalled hearing three shots.[15]

"A minority of the witnesses did recognize the first gunshot blast they heard as a weapon blast, but there was hardly any reaction to the first shot from a majority of the people in the crowd or those riding in the motorcade itself. Many later said they heard what they first thought to be a firecracker or the exhaust backfire of a vehicle just after the President started waving."

Assassination of John F. Kennedy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If millions of Americans had seen the Zapruder film on their local news within a week of JFK's murder, do you think we would be having this conversation today?

go see it. your questions will be answered

 

[Bfgrn]

The Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza

Home | The Sixth Floor Museum

if you ever get the chance, go see it. I did years back on a business trip. for historical purposes Dealey Plaza looks today the exact same as it did that day. in pristine condition. I paid my ticket price and went up to the sixth floor. and i stood in the window next to the one where Ozwald was. the media claimed this shot requied some sort of expert with a rifle from long range. i didn't see it that way. it was at best just an average distance requiring no real special skill. IMO. I also went out on the street and stood on a small slab they claimed Zapruder filmed it. looking back towards the sixth floor it just was not that far away to me.

A Photographer's Story: Bob Jackson and the Kennedy Assassination - YouTube

What about the time required to fire three shots with a bolt action rifle?

"From Houston Street, the presidential limousine made the planned left turn onto Elm Street, allowing it access to the Stemmons Freeway exit. As it turned on Elm, the motorcade passed the Texas School Book Depository. Shots were fired at President Kennedy as they continued down Elm Street.

"A clear majority of witnesses recalled hearing three shots.[15]

"A minority of the witnesses did recognize the first gunshot blast they heard as a weapon blast, but there was hardly any reaction to the first shot from a majority of the people in the crowd or those riding in the motorcade itself. Many later said they heard what they first thought to be a firecracker or the exhaust backfire of a vehicle just after the President started waving."

Assassination of John F. Kennedy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If millions of Americans had seen the Zapruder film on their local news within a week of JFK's murder, do you think we would be having this conversation today?

I really wish we could have a thread on this topic without the whack jobs on both sides.

Witness estimates range from three to eight shots fired. But a majority of witnesses including Secret Service agents, when describing the cadence of the shots reported the last 2 shots were almost simultaneous. A BANG.......................BANG BANG.

That is impossible with a 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano BOLT ACTION rifle

The Guns of Dealey Plaza

 

[georgephillip]

The Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza

Home | The Sixth Floor Museum

if you ever get the chance, go see it. I did years back on a business trip. for historical purposes Dealey Plaza looks today the exact same as it did that day. in pristine condition. I paid my ticket price and went up to the sixth floor. and i stood in the window next to the one where Ozwald was. the media claimed this shot requied some sort of expert with a rifle from long range. i didn't see it that way. it was at best just an average distance requiring no real special skill. IMO. I also went out on the street and stood on a small slab they claimed Zapruder filmed it. looking back towards the sixth floor it just was not that far away to me.

A Photographer's Story: Bob Jackson and the Kennedy Assassination - YouTube

What about the time required to fire three shots with a bolt action rifle?

"From Houston Street, the presidential limousine made the planned left turn onto Elm Street, allowing it access to the Stemmons Freeway exit. As it turned on Elm, the motorcade passed the Texas School Book Depository. Shots were fired at President Kennedy as they continued down Elm Street.

"A clear majority of witnesses recalled hearing three shots.[15]

"A minority of the witnesses did recognize the first gunshot blast they heard as a weapon blast, but there was hardly any reaction to the first shot from a majority of the people in the crowd or those riding in the motorcade itself. Many later said they heard what they first thought to be a firecracker or the exhaust backfire of a vehicle just after the President started waving."

Assassination of John F. Kennedy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If millions of Americans had seen the Zapruder film on their local news within a week of JFK's murder, do you think we would be having this conversation today?

I really wish we could have a thread on this topic without the whack jobs on both sides.

Witness estimates range from three to eight shots fired. But a majority of witnesses including Secret Service agents, when describing the cadence of the shots reported the last 2 shots were almost simultaneous. A BANG.......................BANG BANG.

That is impossible with a 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano BOLT ACTION rifle

The Guns of Dealey Plaza

We could try that thread on the Clean Debate Forum.

 

[namvet]

The Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza

Home | The Sixth Floor Museum

if you ever get the chance, go see it. I did years back on a business trip. for historical purposes Dealey Plaza looks today the exact same as it did that day. in pristine condition. I paid my ticket price and went up to the sixth floor. and i stood in the window next to the one where Ozwald was. the media claimed this shot requied some sort of expert with a rifle from long range. i didn't see it that way. it was at best just an average distance requiring no real special skill. IMO. I also went out on the street and stood on a small slab they claimed Zapruder filmed it. looking back towards the sixth floor it just was not that far away to me.

A Photographer's Story: Bob Jackson and the Kennedy Assassination - YouTube

What about the time required to fire three shots with a bolt action rifle?

"From Houston Street, the presidential limousine made the planned left turn onto Elm Street, allowing it access to the Stemmons Freeway exit. As it turned on Elm, the motorcade passed the Texas School Book Depository. Shots were fired at President Kennedy as they continued down Elm Street.

"A clear majority of witnesses recalled hearing three shots.[15]

"A minority of the witnesses did recognize the first gunshot blast they heard as a weapon blast, but there was hardly any reaction to the first shot from a majority of the people in the crowd or those riding in the motorcade itself. Many later said they heard what they first thought to be a firecracker or the exhaust backfire of a vehicle just after the President started waving."

Assassination of John F. Kennedy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If millions of Americans had seen the Zapruder film on their local news within a week of JFK's murder, do you think we would be having this conversation today?

I really wish we could have a thread on this topic without the whack jobs on both sides.

Witness estimates range from three to eight shots fired. But a majority of witnesses including Secret Service agents, when describing the cadence of the shots reported the last 2 shots were almost simultaneous. A BANG.......................BANG BANG.

That is impossible with a 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano BOLT ACTION rifle

The Guns of Dealey Plaza

the official statement was 3 shots in 6 secs. or less. and many witness's were pointing to the sixth floor. even the Dallas cops were looking up.

A BANG.......................BANG BANG.

Dealey Plaza looked like the perfect echo chamber to me. with buildings on 3 sides. any "bang" is going to bounce off and echo. IMO.

 

[Bfgrn]

What about the time required to fire three shots with a bolt action rifle?

"From Houston Street, the presidential limousine made the planned left turn onto Elm Street, allowing it access to the Stemmons Freeway exit. As it turned on Elm, the motorcade passed the Texas School Book Depository. Shots were fired at President Kennedy as they continued down Elm Street.

"A clear majority of witnesses recalled hearing three shots.[15]

"A minority of the witnesses did recognize the first gunshot blast they heard as a weapon blast, but there was hardly any reaction to the first shot from a majority of the people in the crowd or those riding in the motorcade itself. Many later said they heard what they first thought to be a firecracker or the exhaust backfire of a vehicle just after the President started waving."

Assassination of John F. Kennedy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If millions of Americans had seen the Zapruder film on their local news within a week of JFK's murder, do you think we would be having this conversation today?

I really wish we could have a thread on this topic without the whack jobs on both sides.

Witness estimates range from three to eight shots fired. But a majority of witnesses including Secret Service agents, when describing the cadence of the shots reported the last 2 shots were almost simultaneous. A BANG.......................BANG BANG.

That is impossible with a 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano BOLT ACTION rifle

The Guns of Dealey Plaza

We could try that thread on the Clean Debate Forum.

What gets posted is not vulgar, just ad nauseam and obsessive...or childish and demeaning.

 

[Bfgrn]

What about the time required to fire three shots with a bolt action rifle?

"From Houston Street, the presidential limousine made the planned left turn onto Elm Street, allowing it access to the Stemmons Freeway exit. As it turned on Elm, the motorcade passed the Texas School Book Depository. Shots were fired at President Kennedy as they continued down Elm Street.

"A clear majority of witnesses recalled hearing three shots.[15]

"A minority of the witnesses did recognize the first gunshot blast they heard as a weapon blast, but there was hardly any reaction to the first shot from a majority of the people in the crowd or those riding in the motorcade itself. Many later said they heard what they first thought to be a firecracker or the exhaust backfire of a vehicle just after the President started waving."

Assassination of John F. Kennedy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If millions of Americans had seen the Zapruder film on their local news within a week of JFK's murder, do you think we would be having this conversation today?

I really wish we could have a thread on this topic without the whack jobs on both sides.

Witness estimates range from three to eight shots fired. But a majority of witnesses including Secret Service agents, when describing the cadence of the shots reported the last 2 shots were almost simultaneous. A BANG.......................BANG BANG.

That is impossible with a 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano BOLT ACTION rifle

The Guns of Dealey Plaza

the official statement was 3 shots in 6 secs. or less. and many witness's were pointing to the sixth floor. even the Dallas cops were looking up.

A BANG.......................BANG BANG.

Dealey Plaza looked like the perfect echo chamber to me. with buildings on 3 sides. any "bang" is going to bounce off and echo. IMO.

SO...that would mean we are down to 2 shots and an echo? TOO many wounds....

The Guns of Dealey Plaza

FBI tests for the Warren Commission found that a 6.5 Mannlicher Carcano, bolt-action rifle, Model 91/38 required a minimum of 2.3 seconds to fire two shots. [62] The HSCA made tests in which the telescopic sight was removed to see how fast the rifle could be fired without aiming. Its tests resulted in firings of 1.65, 1.75, and just over two seconds. [63] The only way that the rifle could be fired this quickly was to simply maneuver the bolt action as fast as possible and shoot. The tests were not done with Oswald's Mannlicher Carcano. Whether Oswald's rifle was in a condition where it could be tested is questionable since "the pressure to open the bolt was so great that we tended to move the rifle off the target," according to one of the Warren Commission testers. [64]

If Oswald were the only shooter there would have to be at least 2.3 seconds between shots, assuming he used the telescopic sight found on the Mannlicher Carcano. The three shots that the Warren Commission claimed were fired from Oswald's rifle could not have been shot faster than 6.9 seconds. Secret Service Agent Roy Kellerman described the shots as a "flurry." Two of the shots were often described by witnesses as so closely spaced that they seemed "simultaneous" and had "practically no time element between them." Additionally, there is a substantial amount of testimony, presented in this article, that describes the later shots as sounding different from the first shot. Governor Connally's initial reaction to the gunfire was "that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle." [65]

A double sound, or bang, is described by three Secret Service agents. Two of these agents sat within feet of Kennedy as occupants of the limousine. A double shot was reported by one of the witnesses standing on the overpass.

Special Agent William Greer, the limousine driver, testified that "the last two shots seemed to be just simultaneously, one behind the other." [66]

The other Secret Serviceman in the limousine was Roy Kellerman. Agent Kellerman sat next to Greer and was intimately familiar with the sound of weapons. He described the first shot like many others had, as sounding like a firecracker. But the other two shots, which he officially reported as a "flurry," sounded different than the first shot. Asked by Mr. Specter if Kellerman could describe the sound of the flurry of shots by way of distinction of the first shot, Kellerman replied " ... if I recall correctly these were two sharp reports, sir." Did they sound different from the first shot, asked Specter. "Yes. Definitely. Very much so." Kellerman added: " ... "Let me give you an illustration ... You have heard the sound barrier, of a plane breaking the sound barrier, bang, bang? That is it. It was like a doublebang --- bang, bang." [67]

In Warren Commission testimony Special Agent Hickey described "two reports which I thought were shots ... that there seemed to be practically no time element between them." [68]

Clint Hill, the agent who threw himself into the limousine after the shooting, told the Commission that the second noise he heard was different from the first shot " ... like the sound of shooting a revolver into something hard... almost a double sound." [69]

S.M. Holland carefully watched the motorcade from the railroad overpass. He heard four shots with the third and fourth sounding like a "double shot." He thought some of the shots came from behind the fence on the grassy knoll. "Well it would be like you're firing a .38 pistol right beside a shotgun, or a .45 right beside a shotgun... the third shot was not so loud ... the third and fourth shot hit the President." [70]

Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig. "The first shot ... sort of like it reverberated ... well, it was quite a pause between there [the first and second shots] ... It could have been a little longer [than two or three seconds]... " Between the second and third shots there was "no more than two seconds. It was--they were real rapid." [71]

Joe R. Molina. "... Of course, the first shot was fired then there was an interval between the first and second, longer than the second and third." [72]

Seymour Weitzman. "First one, then the second two seemed to be simultaneously." [73]

Ladybird Johnson. " ... suddenly there was a sharp loud report--a shot. It seemed to me to come from the right, above my shoulder, from a building. Then a moment and then two more shots in rapid succession." [74]

Special Agent Forrest V. Sorrels. "There was to me about twice as much time between the first and second shots as there was between the second and third shots." [75]

Congressman Ralph W. Yarborough. "... by my estimate--to me there seemed to be a longer time between the first and second shots, a much shorter time between the second and third shots... after the first shot about three seconds another shot boomed out, and after what I took to be one-half the time between the first and second shots ... the third shot about one and one-half seconds after the second shot ..." [76]

Mayor Earle Cabell. "There was a longer pause between the first and second shots than there was between the second and third shots. They were in rather rapid succession." [77]

Special Agent Sam A. Kinney. "I saw the President lean toward the left and appeared to have grabbed his chest with his right hand. There was a second of pause and then two more shots were heard ... " [78]

Special Agent William A. McIntyre. "The Presidential vehicle was approximately 200 feet from the underpass when the first shot was fired, followed in quick succession by two more. I would estimate that all three shots were fired within five seconds. After the second shot, I looked at the President and witnessed his being struck in the head by the third and last shot." [79]

Special Agent George Hickey (in reference to the second and third shots). "At the moment he was almost sitting erect I heard two reports, which I thought were shots and that appeared to me completely different in sound than the first report and were in such rapid succession that there seemed to be practically no time element between them." [80]

Special Agent Warren W. Taylor. "In the instant that my left foot touched the ground, I heard two more bangs and realized that they must be gun shots." [81]

Linda Willis. "Yes, I heard one. Then there was a little bit of time, and then there were two real fast bullets together. When the first one hit, well, the President turned from waving to the people, and he grabbed his throat, and he kind of slumped forward, and then I couldn't tell where the second shot went." [82]

Special Agent Rufus Youngblood. "There seemed to be a longer span of time between the first and the second shot than there was between the second and third shot." [83] " ... from the beginning at the sound of the first shot to the second or third shot, happened with a few seconds." [84]

Robert Jackson. "I would say to me it seemed like three or four seconds between the first and the second, and between the second and third, well, I guess two seconds, they were very close together ... " [85]

Arnold Rowland. "The actual time between the reports I would say now, after having had time to consider the six seconds between the first and second report and two between the second and third." [86]

Luke Mooney. "... The second and third shot was pretty close together, but there was a short lapse there between the first and second shot." [87]

Ms. Mitchell (Mary Ann Mitchell). "... there were three---the second and third being closer together than the first and second ... " [88]

Lee Bowers "I heard three shots. One, then a slight pause, then two very close together ... also reverberation from the shots." [89]

Jean Hill. "There were three shots -- one right after the other, and a distinct pause, or just a moment's pause, and I heard more ... " And concerning the shots that followed the first three Ms. Hill said they were "quicker -- more automatic." [90]

 

[namvet]

I really wish we could have a thread on this topic without the whack jobs on both sides.

Witness estimates range from three to eight shots fired. But a majority of witnesses including Secret Service agents, when describing the cadence of the shots reported the last 2 shots were almost simultaneous. A BANG.......................BANG BANG.

That is impossible with a 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano BOLT ACTION rifle

The Guns of Dealey Plaza

the official statement was 3 shots in 6 secs. or less. and many witness's were pointing to the sixth floor. even the Dallas cops were looking up.

A BANG.......................BANG BANG.

Dealey Plaza looked like the perfect echo chamber to me. with buildings on 3 sides. any "bang" is going to bounce off and echo. IMO.

SO...that would mean we are down to 2 shots and an echo? TOO many wounds....

The Guns of Dealey Plaza

FBI tests for the Warren Commission found that a 6.5 Mannlicher Carcano, bolt-action rifle, Model 91/38 required a minimum of 2.3 seconds to fire two shots. [62] The HSCA made tests in which the telescopic sight was removed to see how fast the rifle could be fired without aiming. Its tests resulted in firings of 1.65, 1.75, and just over two seconds. [63] The only way that the rifle could be fired this quickly was to simply maneuver the bolt action as fast as possible and shoot. The tests were not done with Oswald's Mannlicher Carcano. Whether Oswald's rifle was in a condition where it could be tested is questionable since "the pressure to open the bolt was so great that we tended to move the rifle off the target," according to one of the Warren Commission testers. [64]

If Oswald were the only shooter there would have to be at least 2.3 seconds between shots, assuming he used the telescopic sight found on the Mannlicher Carcano. The three shots that the Warren Commission claimed were fired from Oswald's rifle could not have been shot faster than 6.9 seconds. Secret Service Agent Roy Kellerman described the shots as a "flurry." Two of the shots were often described by witnesses as so closely spaced that they seemed "simultaneous" and had "practically no time element between them." Additionally, there is a substantial amount of testimony, presented in this article, that describes the later shots as sounding different from the first shot. Governor Connally's initial reaction to the gunfire was "that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle." [65]

A double sound, or bang, is described by three Secret Service agents. Two of these agents sat within feet of Kennedy as occupants of the limousine. A double shot was reported by one of the witnesses standing on the overpass.

Special Agent William Greer, the limousine driver, testified that "the last two shots seemed to be just simultaneously, one behind the other." [66]

The other Secret Serviceman in the limousine was Roy Kellerman. Agent Kellerman sat next to Greer and was intimately familiar with the sound of weapons. He described the first shot like many others had, as sounding like a firecracker. But the other two shots, which he officially reported as a "flurry," sounded different than the first shot. Asked by Mr. Specter if Kellerman could describe the sound of the flurry of shots by way of distinction of the first shot, Kellerman replied " ... if I recall correctly these were two sharp reports, sir." Did they sound different from the first shot, asked Specter. "Yes. Definitely. Very much so." Kellerman added: " ... "Let me give you an illustration ... You have heard the sound barrier, of a plane breaking the sound barrier, bang, bang? That is it. It was like a doublebang --- bang, bang." [67]

In Warren Commission testimony Special Agent Hickey described "two reports which I thought were shots ... that there seemed to be practically no time element between them." [68]

Clint Hill, the agent who threw himself into the limousine after the shooting, told the Commission that the second noise he heard was different from the first shot " ... like the sound of shooting a revolver into something hard... almost a double sound." [69]

S.M. Holland carefully watched the motorcade from the railroad overpass. He heard four shots with the third and fourth sounding like a "double shot." He thought some of the shots came from behind the fence on the grassy knoll. "Well it would be like you're firing a .38 pistol right beside a shotgun, or a .45 right beside a shotgun... the third shot was not so loud ... the third and fourth shot hit the President." [70]

Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig. "The first shot ... sort of like it reverberated ... well, it was quite a pause between there [the first and second shots] ... It could have been a little longer [than two or three seconds]... " Between the second and third shots there was "no more than two seconds. It was--they were real rapid." [71]

Joe R. Molina. "... Of course, the first shot was fired then there was an interval between the first and second, longer than the second and third." [72]

Seymour Weitzman. "First one, then the second two seemed to be simultaneously." [73]

Ladybird Johnson. " ... suddenly there was a sharp loud report--a shot. It seemed to me to come from the right, above my shoulder, from a building. Then a moment and then two more shots in rapid succession." [74]

Special Agent Forrest V. Sorrels. "There was to me about twice as much time between the first and second shots as there was between the second and third shots." [75]

Congressman Ralph W. Yarborough. "... by my estimate--to me there seemed to be a longer time between the first and second shots, a much shorter time between the second and third shots... after the first shot about three seconds another shot boomed out, and after what I took to be one-half the time between the first and second shots ... the third shot about one and one-half seconds after the second shot ..." [76]

Mayor Earle Cabell. "There was a longer pause between the first and second shots than there was between the second and third shots. They were in rather rapid succession." [77]

Special Agent Sam A. Kinney. "I saw the President lean toward the left and appeared to have grabbed his chest with his right hand. There was a second of pause and then two more shots were heard ... " [78]

Special Agent William A. McIntyre. "The Presidential vehicle was approximately 200 feet from the underpass when the first shot was fired, followed in quick succession by two more. I would estimate that all three shots were fired within five seconds. After the second shot, I looked at the President and witnessed his being struck in the head by the third and last shot." [79]

Special Agent George Hickey (in reference to the second and third shots). "At the moment he was almost sitting erect I heard two reports, which I thought were shots and that appeared to me completely different in sound than the first report and were in such rapid succession that there seemed to be practically no time element between them." [80]

Special Agent Warren W. Taylor. "In the instant that my left foot touched the ground, I heard two more bangs and realized that they must be gun shots." [81]

Linda Willis. "Yes, I heard one. Then there was a little bit of time, and then there were two real fast bullets together. When the first one hit, well, the President turned from waving to the people, and he grabbed his throat, and he kind of slumped forward, and then I couldn't tell where the second shot went." [82]

Special Agent Rufus Youngblood. "There seemed to be a longer span of time between the first and the second shot than there was between the second and third shot." [83] " ... from the beginning at the sound of the first shot to the second or third shot, happened with a few seconds." [84]

Robert Jackson. "I would say to me it seemed like three or four seconds between the first and the second, and between the second and third, well, I guess two seconds, they were very close together ... " [85]

Arnold Rowland. "The actual time between the reports I would say now, after having had time to consider the six seconds between the first and second report and two between the second and third." [86]

Luke Mooney. "... The second and third shot was pretty close together, but there was a short lapse there between the first and second shot." [87]

Ms. Mitchell (Mary Ann Mitchell). "... there were three---the second and third being closer together than the first and second ... " [88]

Lee Bowers "I heard three shots. One, then a slight pause, then two very close together ... also reverberation from the shots." [89]

Jean Hill. "There were three shots -- one right after the other, and a distinct pause, or just a moment's pause, and I heard more ... " And concerning the shots that followed the first three Ms. Hill said they were "quicker -- more automatic." [90]

so now we've gone from as many as 8 down to 3

Lee Bowers "I heard three shots. One, then a slight pause, then two very close together ... also reverberation from the shots."

reverberation:

Reverberation is the persistence of sound in a particular space after the original sound is produced.[1] A reverberation, or reverb, is created when a sound is produced in an enclosed space causing a large number of echoes to build up and then slowly decay as the sound is absorbed by the walls and air.[2] This is most noticeable when the sound source stops but the reflections continue, decreasing in amplitude, until they can no longer be heard. The length of this sound decay, or reverberation time, receives special consideration in the architectural design of large chambers, which need to have specific reverberation times to achieve optimum performance for their intended activity.[3] In comparison to a distinct echo that is 50 to 100 ms after the initial sound, reverberation is many thousands of echoes that arrive in very quick succession (.01 – 1 ms between echoes). As time passes, the volume of the many echoes is reduced until the echoes cannot be heard at all.

im sorry but this just reinforce's my thinking about echo's. the post really indicates the mass confussion everyone went thru

 

[Bfgrn]

the official statement was 3 shots in 6 secs. or less. and many witness's were pointing to the sixth floor. even the Dallas cops were looking up.



Dealey Plaza looked like the perfect echo chamber to me. with buildings on 3 sides. any "bang" is going to bounce off and echo. IMO.

SO...that would mean we are down to 2 shots and an echo? TOO many wounds....

The Guns of Dealey Plaza

FBI tests for the Warren Commission found that a 6.5 Mannlicher Carcano, bolt-action rifle, Model 91/38 required a minimum of 2.3 seconds to fire two shots. [62] The HSCA made tests in which the telescopic sight was removed to see how fast the rifle could be fired without aiming. Its tests resulted in firings of 1.65, 1.75, and just over two seconds. [63] The only way that the rifle could be fired this quickly was to simply maneuver the bolt action as fast as possible and shoot. The tests were not done with Oswald's Mannlicher Carcano. Whether Oswald's rifle was in a condition where it could be tested is questionable since "the pressure to open the bolt was so great that we tended to move the rifle off the target," according to one of the Warren Commission testers. [64]

If Oswald were the only shooter there would have to be at least 2.3 seconds between shots, assuming he used the telescopic sight found on the Mannlicher Carcano. The three shots that the Warren Commission claimed were fired from Oswald's rifle could not have been shot faster than 6.9 seconds. Secret Service Agent Roy Kellerman described the shots as a "flurry." Two of the shots were often described by witnesses as so closely spaced that they seemed "simultaneous" and had "practically no time element between them." Additionally, there is a substantial amount of testimony, presented in this article, that describes the later shots as sounding different from the first shot. Governor Connally's initial reaction to the gunfire was "that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle." [65]

A double sound, or bang, is described by three Secret Service agents. Two of these agents sat within feet of Kennedy as occupants of the limousine. A double shot was reported by one of the witnesses standing on the overpass.

Special Agent William Greer, the limousine driver, testified that "the last two shots seemed to be just simultaneously, one behind the other." [66]

The other Secret Serviceman in the limousine was Roy Kellerman. Agent Kellerman sat next to Greer and was intimately familiar with the sound of weapons. He described the first shot like many others had, as sounding like a firecracker. But the other two shots, which he officially reported as a "flurry," sounded different than the first shot. Asked by Mr. Specter if Kellerman could describe the sound of the flurry of shots by way of distinction of the first shot, Kellerman replied " ... if I recall correctly these were two sharp reports, sir." Did they sound different from the first shot, asked Specter. "Yes. Definitely. Very much so." Kellerman added: " ... "Let me give you an illustration ... You have heard the sound barrier, of a plane breaking the sound barrier, bang, bang? That is it. It was like a doublebang --- bang, bang." [67]

In Warren Commission testimony Special Agent Hickey described "two reports which I thought were shots ... that there seemed to be practically no time element between them." [68]

Clint Hill, the agent who threw himself into the limousine after the shooting, told the Commission that the second noise he heard was different from the first shot " ... like the sound of shooting a revolver into something hard... almost a double sound." [69]

S.M. Holland carefully watched the motorcade from the railroad overpass. He heard four shots with the third and fourth sounding like a "double shot." He thought some of the shots came from behind the fence on the grassy knoll. "Well it would be like you're firing a .38 pistol right beside a shotgun, or a .45 right beside a shotgun... the third shot was not so loud ... the third and fourth shot hit the President." [70]

Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig. "The first shot ... sort of like it reverberated ... well, it was quite a pause between there [the first and second shots] ... It could have been a little longer [than two or three seconds]... " Between the second and third shots there was "no more than two seconds. It was--they were real rapid." [71]

Joe R. Molina. "... Of course, the first shot was fired then there was an interval between the first and second, longer than the second and third." [72]

Seymour Weitzman. "First one, then the second two seemed to be simultaneously." [73]

Ladybird Johnson. " ... suddenly there was a sharp loud report--a shot. It seemed to me to come from the right, above my shoulder, from a building. Then a moment and then two more shots in rapid succession." [74]

Special Agent Forrest V. Sorrels. "There was to me about twice as much time between the first and second shots as there was between the second and third shots." [75]

Congressman Ralph W. Yarborough. "... by my estimate--to me there seemed to be a longer time between the first and second shots, a much shorter time between the second and third shots... after the first shot about three seconds another shot boomed out, and after what I took to be one-half the time between the first and second shots ... the third shot about one and one-half seconds after the second shot ..." [76]

Mayor Earle Cabell. "There was a longer pause between the first and second shots than there was between the second and third shots. They were in rather rapid succession." [77]

Special Agent Sam A. Kinney. "I saw the President lean toward the left and appeared to have grabbed his chest with his right hand. There was a second of pause and then two more shots were heard ... " [78]

Special Agent William A. McIntyre. "The Presidential vehicle was approximately 200 feet from the underpass when the first shot was fired, followed in quick succession by two more. I would estimate that all three shots were fired within five seconds. After the second shot, I looked at the President and witnessed his being struck in the head by the third and last shot." [79]

Special Agent George Hickey (in reference to the second and third shots). "At the moment he was almost sitting erect I heard two reports, which I thought were shots and that appeared to me completely different in sound than the first report and were in such rapid succession that there seemed to be practically no time element between them." [80]

Special Agent Warren W. Taylor. "In the instant that my left foot touched the ground, I heard two more bangs and realized that they must be gun shots." [81]

Linda Willis. "Yes, I heard one. Then there was a little bit of time, and then there were two real fast bullets together. When the first one hit, well, the President turned from waving to the people, and he grabbed his throat, and he kind of slumped forward, and then I couldn't tell where the second shot went." [82]

Special Agent Rufus Youngblood. "There seemed to be a longer span of time between the first and the second shot than there was between the second and third shot." [83] " ... from the beginning at the sound of the first shot to the second or third shot, happened with a few seconds." [84]

Robert Jackson. "I would say to me it seemed like three or four seconds between the first and the second, and between the second and third, well, I guess two seconds, they were very close together ... " [85]

Arnold Rowland. "The actual time between the reports I would say now, after having had time to consider the six seconds between the first and second report and two between the second and third." [86]

Luke Mooney. "... The second and third shot was pretty close together, but there was a short lapse there between the first and second shot." [87]

Ms. Mitchell (Mary Ann Mitchell). "... there were three---the second and third being closer together than the first and second ... " [88]

Lee Bowers "I heard three shots. One, then a slight pause, then two very close together ... also reverberation from the shots." [89]

Jean Hill. "There were three shots -- one right after the other, and a distinct pause, or just a moment's pause, and I heard more ... " And concerning the shots that followed the first three Ms. Hill said they were "quicker -- more automatic." [90]

so now we've gone from as many as 8 down to 3

Lee Bowers "I heard three shots. One, then a slight pause, then two very close together ... also reverberation from the shots."

reverberation:

Reverberation is the persistence of sound in a particular space after the original sound is produced.[1] A reverberation, or reverb, is created when a sound is produced in an enclosed space causing a large number of echoes to build up and then slowly decay as the sound is absorbed by the walls and air.[2] This is most noticeable when the sound source stops but the reflections continue, decreasing in amplitude, until they can no longer be heard. The length of this sound decay, or reverberation time, receives special consideration in the architectural design of large chambers, which need to have specific reverberation times to achieve optimum performance for their intended activity.[3] In comparison to a distinct echo that is 50 to 100 ms after the initial sound, reverberation is many thousands of echoes that arrive in very quick succession (.01 – 1 ms between echoes). As time passes, the volume of the many echoes is reduced until the echoes cannot be heard at all.

im sorry but this just reinforce's my thinking about echo's. the post really indicates the mass confussion everyone went thru

It was not an echo. Secret Service agents and lawmen described the cadence. They are familiar with gunshots. There is very little confusion, the testimonies from professionals to bystanders are very consistent that 2 shots were almost simultaneous.

Irony, your screen name is namvet, yet you don't believe the government lied to you...

 

[namvet]

SO...that would mean we are down to 2 shots and an echo? TOO many wounds....

The Guns of Dealey Plaza

FBI tests for the Warren Commission found that a 6.5 Mannlicher Carcano, bolt-action rifle, Model 91/38 required a minimum of 2.3 seconds to fire two shots. [62] The HSCA made tests in which the telescopic sight was removed to see how fast the rifle could be fired without aiming. Its tests resulted in firings of 1.65, 1.75, and just over two seconds. [63] The only way that the rifle could be fired this quickly was to simply maneuver the bolt action as fast as possible and shoot. The tests were not done with Oswald's Mannlicher Carcano. Whether Oswald's rifle was in a condition where it could be tested is questionable since "the pressure to open the bolt was so great that we tended to move the rifle off the target," according to one of the Warren Commission testers. [64]

If Oswald were the only shooter there would have to be at least 2.3 seconds between shots, assuming he used the telescopic sight found on the Mannlicher Carcano. The three shots that the Warren Commission claimed were fired from Oswald's rifle could not have been shot faster than 6.9 seconds. Secret Service Agent Roy Kellerman described the shots as a "flurry." Two of the shots were often described by witnesses as so closely spaced that they seemed "simultaneous" and had "practically no time element between them." Additionally, there is a substantial amount of testimony, presented in this article, that describes the later shots as sounding different from the first shot. Governor Connally's initial reaction to the gunfire was "that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle." [65]

A double sound, or bang, is described by three Secret Service agents. Two of these agents sat within feet of Kennedy as occupants of the limousine. A double shot was reported by one of the witnesses standing on the overpass.

Special Agent William Greer, the limousine driver, testified that "the last two shots seemed to be just simultaneously, one behind the other." [66]

The other Secret Serviceman in the limousine was Roy Kellerman. Agent Kellerman sat next to Greer and was intimately familiar with the sound of weapons. He described the first shot like many others had, as sounding like a firecracker. But the other two shots, which he officially reported as a "flurry," sounded different than the first shot. Asked by Mr. Specter if Kellerman could describe the sound of the flurry of shots by way of distinction of the first shot, Kellerman replied " ... if I recall correctly these were two sharp reports, sir." Did they sound different from the first shot, asked Specter. "Yes. Definitely. Very much so." Kellerman added: " ... "Let me give you an illustration ... You have heard the sound barrier, of a plane breaking the sound barrier, bang, bang? That is it. It was like a doublebang --- bang, bang." [67]

In Warren Commission testimony Special Agent Hickey described "two reports which I thought were shots ... that there seemed to be practically no time element between them." [68]

Clint Hill, the agent who threw himself into the limousine after the shooting, told the Commission that the second noise he heard was different from the first shot " ... like the sound of shooting a revolver into something hard... almost a double sound." [69]

S.M. Holland carefully watched the motorcade from the railroad overpass. He heard four shots with the third and fourth sounding like a "double shot." He thought some of the shots came from behind the fence on the grassy knoll. "Well it would be like you're firing a .38 pistol right beside a shotgun, or a .45 right beside a shotgun... the third shot was not so loud ... the third and fourth shot hit the President." [70]

Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig. "The first shot ... sort of like it reverberated ... well, it was quite a pause between there [the first and second shots] ... It could have been a little longer [than two or three seconds]... " Between the second and third shots there was "no more than two seconds. It was--they were real rapid." [71]

Joe R. Molina. "... Of course, the first shot was fired then there was an interval between the first and second, longer than the second and third." [72]

Seymour Weitzman. "First one, then the second two seemed to be simultaneously." [73]

Ladybird Johnson. " ... suddenly there was a sharp loud report--a shot. It seemed to me to come from the right, above my shoulder, from a building. Then a moment and then two more shots in rapid succession." [74]

Special Agent Forrest V. Sorrels. "There was to me about twice as much time between the first and second shots as there was between the second and third shots." [75]

Congressman Ralph W. Yarborough. "... by my estimate--to me there seemed to be a longer time between the first and second shots, a much shorter time between the second and third shots... after the first shot about three seconds another shot boomed out, and after what I took to be one-half the time between the first and second shots ... the third shot about one and one-half seconds after the second shot ..." [76]

Mayor Earle Cabell. "There was a longer pause between the first and second shots than there was between the second and third shots. They were in rather rapid succession." [77]

Special Agent Sam A. Kinney. "I saw the President lean toward the left and appeared to have grabbed his chest with his right hand. There was a second of pause and then two more shots were heard ... " [78]

Special Agent William A. McIntyre. "The Presidential vehicle was approximately 200 feet from the underpass when the first shot was fired, followed in quick succession by two more. I would estimate that all three shots were fired within five seconds. After the second shot, I looked at the President and witnessed his being struck in the head by the third and last shot." [79]

Special Agent George Hickey (in reference to the second and third shots). "At the moment he was almost sitting erect I heard two reports, which I thought were shots and that appeared to me completely different in sound than the first report and were in such rapid succession that there seemed to be practically no time element between them." [80]

Special Agent Warren W. Taylor. "In the instant that my left foot touched the ground, I heard two more bangs and realized that they must be gun shots." [81]

Linda Willis. "Yes, I heard one. Then there was a little bit of time, and then there were two real fast bullets together. When the first one hit, well, the President turned from waving to the people, and he grabbed his throat, and he kind of slumped forward, and then I couldn't tell where the second shot went." [82]

Special Agent Rufus Youngblood. "There seemed to be a longer span of time between the first and the second shot than there was between the second and third shot." [83] " ... from the beginning at the sound of the first shot to the second or third shot, happened with a few seconds." [84]

Robert Jackson. "I would say to me it seemed like three or four seconds between the first and the second, and between the second and third, well, I guess two seconds, they were very close together ... " [85]

Arnold Rowland. "The actual time between the reports I would say now, after having had time to consider the six seconds between the first and second report and two between the second and third." [86]

Luke Mooney. "... The second and third shot was pretty close together, but there was a short lapse there between the first and second shot." [87]

Ms. Mitchell (Mary Ann Mitchell). "... there were three---the second and third being closer together than the first and second ... " [88]

Lee Bowers "I heard three shots. One, then a slight pause, then two very close together ... also reverberation from the shots." [89]

Jean Hill. "There were three shots -- one right after the other, and a distinct pause, or just a moment's pause, and I heard more ... " And concerning the shots that followed the first three Ms. Hill said they were "quicker -- more automatic." [90]

so now we've gone from as many as 8 down to 3

Lee Bowers "I heard three shots. One, then a slight pause, then two very close together ... also reverberation from the shots."

reverberation:

Reverberation is the persistence of sound in a particular space after the original sound is produced.[1] A reverberation, or reverb, is created when a sound is produced in an enclosed space causing a large number of echoes to build up and then slowly decay as the sound is absorbed by the walls and air.[2] This is most noticeable when the sound source stops but the reflections continue, decreasing in amplitude, until they can no longer be heard. The length of this sound decay, or reverberation time, receives special consideration in the architectural design of large chambers, which need to have specific reverberation times to achieve optimum performance for their intended activity.[3] In comparison to a distinct echo that is 50 to 100 ms after the initial sound, reverberation is many thousands of echoes that arrive in very quick succession (.01 – 1 ms between echoes). As time passes, the volume of the many echoes is reduced until the echoes cannot be heard at all.

im sorry but this just reinforce's my thinking about echo's. the post really indicates the mass confussion everyone went thru

It was not an echo. Secret Service agents and lawmen described the cadence. They are familiar with gunshots. There is very little confusion, the testimonies from professionals to bystanders are very consistent that 2 shots were almost simultaneous.

Irony, your screen name is namvet, yet you don't believe the government lied to you...

to me its just more smoke filled coffee house crap. conspirators have taken this back to committees over the years on many occasions and come with zero. nada. if they ever prove the warren commission wrong you have my apology

Irony, your screen name is namvet, yet you don't believe the government lied to you...

oh sure after murdering 58,000 i have total trust in it

 

[numan]

It was not an echo. Secret Service agents and lawmen described the cadence. They are familiar with gunshots. There is very little confusion, the testimonies from professionals to bystanders are very consistent that 2 shots were almost simultaneous.

Irony, your screen name is namvet, yet you don't believe the government lied to you...

His avatar seems to indicate that he regards it as matter for humor that the government started a vicious, murderous war by a phony staged "incident" in the Gulf of Tonkin -- and then lying and lying about everything for ten years.
.

 

[namvet]

It was not an echo. Secret Service agents and lawmen described the cadence. They are familiar with gunshots. There is very little confusion, the testimonies from professionals to bystanders are very consistent that 2 shots were almost simultaneous.

Irony, your screen name is namvet, yet you don't believe the government lied to you...

His avatar seems to indicate that he regards it as matter for humor that the government started a vicious, murderous war by a phony staged "incident" in the Gulf of Tonkin -- and then lying and lying about everything for ten years.
.

and WTF do you call that???​

 

[Bfgrn]

so now we've gone from as many as 8 down to 3



reverberation:

Reverberation is the persistence of sound in a particular space after the original sound is produced.[1] A reverberation, or reverb, is created when a sound is produced in an enclosed space causing a large number of echoes to build up and then slowly decay as the sound is absorbed by the walls and air.[2] This is most noticeable when the sound source stops but the reflections continue, decreasing in amplitude, until they can no longer be heard. The length of this sound decay, or reverberation time, receives special consideration in the architectural design of large chambers, which need to have specific reverberation times to achieve optimum performance for their intended activity.[3] In comparison to a distinct echo that is 50 to 100 ms after the initial sound, reverberation is many thousands of echoes that arrive in very quick succession (.01 – 1 ms between echoes). As time passes, the volume of the many echoes is reduced until the echoes cannot be heard at all.

im sorry but this just reinforce's my thinking about echo's. the post really indicates the mass confussion everyone went thru

It was not an echo. Secret Service agents and lawmen described the cadence. They are familiar with gunshots. There is very little confusion, the testimonies from professionals to bystanders are very consistent that 2 shots were almost simultaneous.

Irony, your screen name is namvet, yet you don't believe the government lied to you...

to me its just more smoke filled coffee house crap. conspirators have taken this back to committees over the years on many occasions and come with zero. nada. if they ever prove the warren commission wrong you have my apology

Irony, your screen name is namvet, yet you don't believe the government lied to you...

oh sure after murdering 58,000 i have total trust in it

IF it was an echo, then you only have 2 BULLETS, not 3. HOW do you explain the wounds?

 

[namvet]

It was not an echo. Secret Service agents and lawmen described the cadence. They are familiar with gunshots. There is very little confusion, the testimonies from professionals to bystanders are very consistent that 2 shots were almost simultaneous.

Irony, your screen name is namvet, yet you don't believe the government lied to you...

to me its just more smoke filled coffee house crap. conspirators have taken this back to committees over the years on many occasions and come with zero. nada. if they ever prove the warren commission wrong you have my apology

Irony, your screen name is namvet, yet you don't believe the government lied to you...

oh sure after murdering 58,000 i have total trust in it

IF it was an echo, then you only have 2 BULLETS, not 3. HOW do you explain the wounds?

try reading. I said what was reported. 3 shots in 6 secs or less. how many echo's from 3 shots??? at least 3. i contend more. where you come up with 2 is beyond me.

every bear in wyoming knows about the wounds. hello

 

[LA RAM FAN]

'
I would have assumed, from the childishness of his postings and his infantile pictures, that "namvet" is a teenager pretending to be grown up -- yet he claims to be a Vietnam War veteran. Should we trust him? I suppose he could just be suffering from senile dementia.

By the way, your avatar -- "Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club" -- is tasteless in the extreme.

.

Yeah you can tell from his childish posts he isnt some namvet in denial.

those kind dont act childish like he does when cornered,they just say a few obsenitys and walk off when confronted with facts they cant refute.

they dont keep coming back trolling like he does and acting like a five year old so its pretty obvious he is just a kid troll who likes to fantasize about what it would have been like to be in vietnam and serve there.


Irony, your screen name is namvet, yet you don't believe the government lied to you...




His avatar seems to indicate that he regards it as matter for humor that the government started a vicious, murderous war by a phony staged "incident" in the Gulf of Tonkin -- and then lying and lying about everything for ten years.