End of the Two-State Solution

[P F Tinmore]

The big words went over your head?

Oh, and bulldozers went over houses where there was no proof that harboring criminals or terrorists ever took place.

But nice try. Too bad it didn't work out for ya.

The vast majority of Palestinian homes were bulldozed for Israeli theft not for "terrorism."

Proof?

How many house have been bulldozed? Many thousands. How many "terrorist" attacks have there been? very few.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RC6Q5llWRac[/ame]

 

[CMike]

How many rockets have been shot at Israeli cities by these terrorists?

More than 8,000

 

[P F Tinmore]

How many rockets have been shot at Israeli cities by these terrorists?

More than 8,000

Palestinians only attack people who are occupying their country.

 

[The Rabbi]

I didnt realize Tel Aviv was part of some other country than Israel.

 

[CMike]

I think they consider all of Israel to be there country.

 

[Coyote]

How many rockets have been shot at Israeli cities by these terrorists?

More than 8,000

A comparison of civilian death tolls would be a more accurate standard then property damage.

 

[CMike]

Not really because the arab civilian deaths are a direct result of arab terrorists intentionally using civilians as human shields.

You would think that they would care more about their own civilians than their hate for Israel, but they don't.

 

[The Rabbi]

I think they consider all of Israel to be there country.

And that''s the problem right there.

 

[Coyote]

Not really because the arab civilian deaths are a direct result of arab terrorists intentionally using civilians as human shields.

You would think that they would care more about their own civilians than their hate for Israel, but they don't.

I can't believe you're still holding on to those same stale talking points. While there is a certain degree of truth there, it's deceptive.

In Gaza no one can leave. Gaza is one of the most densely occupied areas in the world. Think about it for a moment and tell me how terrorists can get away from civilians? It is not always a matter of "intentionally using civilians as human sheilds" though that certainly happens (likewise, the IDF has been accused of using Palestinians as human sheilds when entering buildings which weakens the moral validity of their argument a great deal). The conclusions of a panel over the last conflict in Gaza showed both Israel and Hamas in a very poor light where civilians were concerned and steps could have been taken but were not, to reduce civilian casualties or allow quicker access to medical treatment. To be fair to Israel though, far more Palestinians are killed by Palestinian on Palestinian violence. I suspect that much of that can be blamed on the general break down of law and order due to economic conditions, umemployment, Israeli control of access, water, and goods, overcrowding and rampant corruption in the Palestinian Authority that leaves Palestinians without a accountable political process to turn to.

Palestinian civilians, particularly in the West Bank, have also died as a result of being unable to access medical treatment because of delays or obstruction at checkpoints. Since the beginning of the intifada, for example,68 pregnant women have been unable to access hospitals and forced subsequently to give birth at checkpoints, resulting in the deaths of four women and 34 miscarriages.

 

[CMike]

How about let's start with the terrorists in Gaza not using schools, mosques, and hospitals, to launch missile attacks.

That would be a good way to minimize casualties when Israel attacks to the provoked terrorist attacks.

Don't you think so?

As far as the pregnant women why do they have to go through checkpoints they have their own hospitals?

Also, if the terrorists won't send their poor battered women to launch terrorist attacks by bombing buses, trains, bus stops, and restaurants, there probably wouldn't be these delays at the checkpoints.

Amazing, the gaza terrorists try to sneak women in to bomb and kill as many civilians as possible, and then complain that there are delays in checkpoints. DUH

 

[P F Tinmore]

I think they consider all of Israel to be there country.

And that''s the problem right there.

That is true.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EAmtgfPz-k[/ame]

http://site404.mysite4now.com/ipsne...The Zionist Occupation of Western Galilee.pdf

The June 1967 Arab-Israeli War resulted in a vast expansion of the Zionist colonial project in Palestine, a seizure of territory that much of the world recognizes as an illegal occupation. But it wasn’t the first illegitimate occupation.

That first occupation began with a project calling itself the State of Israel. Its armed wing is known as the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF). It occupied Western Palestine in 1948 and still does to this day.

Occupation of Palestine started in 1948

 

[The Rabbi]

How about let's start with the terrorists in Gaza not using schools, mosques, and hospitals, to launch missile attacks.

That would be a good way to minimize casualties when Israel attacks to the provoked terrorist attacks.

Don't you think so?

As far as the pregnant women why do they have to go through checkpoints they have their own hospitals?

Also, if the terrorists won't send their poor battered women to launch terrorist attacks by bombing buses, trains, bus stops, and restaurants, there probably wouldn't be these delays at the checkpoints.

Amazing, the gaza terrorists try to sneak women in to bomb and kill as many civilians as possible, and then complain that there are delays in checkpoints. DUH

Hamas wants to maximize casualties, not minimize them. The more casualties, the more press. If it's Israeli casualties, good. If it's Palestinian casualties, also good because they can blame Israel.
The only amazing thing is that some suckers actually fall for this shit.

 

[P F Tinmore]

How about let's start with the terrorists in Gaza not using schools, mosques, and hospitals, to launch missile attacks.

That would be a good way to minimize casualties when Israel attacks to the provoked terrorist attacks.

Don't you think so?

As far as the pregnant women why do they have to go through checkpoints they have their own hospitals?

Also, if the terrorists won't send their poor battered women to launch terrorist attacks by bombing buses, trains, bus stops, and restaurants, there probably wouldn't be these delays at the checkpoints.

Amazing, the gaza terrorists try to sneak women in to bomb and kill as many civilians as possible, and then complain that there are delays in checkpoints. DUH

Hamas wants to maximize casualties, not minimize them. The more casualties, the more press. If it's Israeli casualties, good. If it's Palestinian casualties, also good because they can blame Israel.
The only amazing thing is that some suckers actually fall for this shit.

Hamas wants a long term truce so that peace negotiations can take place on a more peaceful footing.

 

[Coyote]

How about let's start with the terrorists in Gaza not using schools, mosques, and hospitals, to launch missile attacks.

That would be a good way to minimize casualties when Israel attacks to the provoked terrorist attacks.

Don't you think so?

Up to a point. But Israel has been careless of it's targets - certainly in it's last offensive and in it's offensive in Lebenon which went FAR beyond simply targeting terrorists. In addition, like I said Gaza is horribly overcrowded (another thanks to Israel which refuses most Arab expansion and building permits and bulldozes villages that have no permit).

Don't you think so?

As far as the pregnant women why do they have to go through checkpoints they have their own hospitals?

A simple look at a map will answer that question.

Also, if the terrorists won't send their poor battered women to launch terrorist attacks by bombing buses, trains, bus stops, and restaurants, there probably wouldn't be these delays at the checkpoints.

I love it how you guys try to blame the victim.

Amazing, the gaza terrorists try to sneak women in to bomb and kill as many civilians as possible, and then complain that there are delays in checkpoints. DUH

Amazing. When was the last heavily pregnant woman suicide bomber attack? Refresh my memory please.

 

[Coyote]

How about let's start with the terrorists in Gaza not using schools, mosques, and hospitals, to launch missile attacks.

That would be a good way to minimize casualties when Israel attacks to the provoked terrorist attacks.

Don't you think so?

As far as the pregnant women why do they have to go through checkpoints they have their own hospitals?

Also, if the terrorists won't send their poor battered women to launch terrorist attacks by bombing buses, trains, bus stops, and restaurants, there probably wouldn't be these delays at the checkpoints.

Amazing, the gaza terrorists try to sneak women in to bomb and kill as many civilians as possible, and then complain that there are delays in checkpoints. DUH

Hamas wants to maximize casualties, not minimize them. The more casualties, the more press. If it's Israeli casualties, good. If it's Palestinian casualties, also good because they can blame Israel.
The only amazing thing is that some suckers actually fall for this shit.

Hamas wants a long term truce so that peace negotiations can take place on a more peaceful footing.

Do you have anything to support that?

How can peace negotiations take place if Hamas still refuses to recognize Israel as a nation? Or has that changed?

 

[The Rabbi]

Hamas wants to maximize casualties, not minimize them. The more casualties, the more press. If it's Israeli casualties, good. If it's Palestinian casualties, also good because they can blame Israel.
The only amazing thing is that some suckers actually fall for this shit.

Hamas wants a long term truce so that peace negotiations can take place on a more peaceful footing.

Do you have anything to support that?

How can peace negotiations take place if Hamas still refuses to recognize Israel as a nation? Or has that changed?

You're kidding me, right? You're asking for support from PF Tinmore, the apologist du jour of Palestinian terrorism, the man who says Hamas didnt really machine gun Fatah workers in the street?
Like the PLO, he dont need no stinkin proof.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Hamas wants to maximize casualties, not minimize them. The more casualties, the more press. If it's Israeli casualties, good. If it's Palestinian casualties, also good because they can blame Israel.
The only amazing thing is that some suckers actually fall for this shit.

Hamas wants a long term truce so that peace negotiations can take place on a more peaceful footing.

Do you have anything to support that?

How can peace negotiations take place if Hamas still refuses to recognize Israel as a nation? Or has that changed?

Another Hamas Peace Plan Ignored

If you want to understand the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in a nutshell, just look at the New York Times editorial pages of November 1, 2006. Amazingly enough, the Times ran a full op-ed column by a top official of the Hamas party, Ahmed Yousef, a senior adviser to Palestinian prime minister Ismail Haniyeh. Yousef repeated the same offer Hamas has been making for years. In Arabic it's called a "hudna."

As Yousef explained, a hudna is "a period of nonwar but only partial resolution of a conflict." It "extends beyond the Western concept of a cease-fire and obliges the parties to use the period to seek a permanent, nonviolent resolution to their differences." A hudna "affords the opportunity to humanize one's opponents and understand their position with the goal of resolving the intertribal or international dispute."

"This offer of hudna is no ruse, as some assert, to strengthen our military machine," Yousef pleaded. And he offered several reasons to believe it: "A hudna is recognized in Islamic jurisprudence as a legitimate and binding contract. . It goes back to the Koran itself. . When Hamas gives its word to an international agreement, it does so in the name of God and will therefore keep its word. Hamas has honored its previous cease-fires, as Israelis grudgingly note with the oft-heard words, 'At least with Hamas they mean what they say.'"

As Yousef told the British newspaper, The Guardian, Hamas leaders can't say that publicly because "there is no support in Gaza and the West Bank for recognition of Israel, and he could not propose such a change at present. 'If I did, I would end up like Michael Collins,' he said, referring to the Irish republican leader assassinated in 1922 for accepting an Irish two-state solution. 'We need to change people's minds on how they look at the conflict, and it will take time. The climate will change if we have a period of peace.'"

But right-wing Israelis, who get most of the space in the Times' letters to the editor, simply won't believe that. They won't recognize the risk that Hamas leaders are taking by getting ahead of their own public on the path to peace. They would rather hold on to their unshakable faith that Jews are surrounded by anti-semitic enemies bent only on destroying them.

Another Hamas Peace Plan Ignored

Israel's acceptance of the hudna proposal would constitute a strategic victory for Hamas and its allies: The organization would be regarded by the Palestinian population as the leading element in the national struggle. It would quickly receive international legitimacy, establish its economic and political control through the generous assistance of the international community, and be able to develop a deterrent military capability vis-a-vis Israel through massive arms smuggling across the Egyptian border.

Hudna is no solution - Haaretz - Israel News

 

[Coyote]

Hamas wants a long term truce so that peace negotiations can take place on a more peaceful footing.

Do you have anything to support that?

How can peace negotiations take place if Hamas still refuses to recognize Israel as a nation? Or has that changed?

You're kidding me, right? You're asking for support from PF Tinmore, the apologist du jour of Palestinian terrorism, the man who says Hamas didnt really machine gun Fatah workers in the street?
Like the PLO, he dont need no stinkin proof.

Well.....we shall just have to see if he is any more forthcoming with support for his contention then our local Israeli apologist who thinks cleaning all the Arabs out of Israel and it's occupied territories and moving them Jordan is a workable idea.

 

[Coyote]

Interesting set of articles Mr. Tinmore...and some interesting points. Clearly the Palestinians have the same sorts of trouble with "hardliners" within their factions that the Israelis do with their own. And recognition of Israel by the one and a Palistinian state by the other will have to be arrived at through many small political steps.

The trouble is the hardliners and Hamas' legitimacy in the government.

And Hamas leaders cannot say publicly the most important fact: In Muslim law, a hudna is offered only to a non-Muslim party that controls its own non-Muslim land. In other words (as I have noted in a previous column) by using the word "hudna," Hamas leaders are implicitly recognizing the permanent existence of Israel. Ahmed Yousef himself wrote that the hudna would involve "an immediate end to the occupation and to initiate a period of peaceful coexistence." That sounds like a veiled promise of a two-state solution.

Interesting.

The one article quotes Lieberman - isn't he the one who is very anti-Arab, calling for Arab Israeli's to sign a loyalty oath and that the Arab members of the Knesset who had met with Hamas be tried for treason?

 

[The Rabbi]

Do you have anything to support that?

How can peace negotiations take place if Hamas still refuses to recognize Israel as a nation? Or has that changed?

You're kidding me, right? You're asking for support from PF Tinmore, the apologist du jour of Palestinian terrorism, the man who says Hamas didnt really machine gun Fatah workers in the street?
Like the PLO, he dont need no stinkin proof.

Well.....we shall just have to see if he is any more forthcoming with support for his contention then our local Israeli apologist who thinks cleaning all the Arabs out of Israel and it's occupied territories and moving them Jordan is a workable idea.

Do you have a better idea?