Education a right ?

[ScreamingEagle]

Seems to me this kinda sums it up...

conservative "rights" = those enumerated in the US Constitution (like you can buy your own education in the pursuit of happiness or you can vote for public schools in your state)

liberal "rights" = federal free goodies (like nationally paid-for...& managed...education and healthcare)

Liberals seem to think we should abandon the US Constitution in favor of the UN's enumerated "human rights" which do nothing but foster the entitlement viewpoint and are nothing more than a recipe for world socialism...

 

[amrchaos]

All kidding aside


What exactly is a right. I think we are not using the same definition of "rights" here. For instance, I do not think education is a right. It is a desire to have a society with the vast majority having the ability to think for themselves and garner information as they desire. But that is a goal by our citizenry and is reflected in our government. It may not be desirous in other nations in which a dictatorship is in control. And it may not be to the liken of nations in which primitive superstitions hold sway over the populace.

In my opinion, a right is an ability held by an individual that is respected by the government. In this view, government does not protect rights but is forced by the citizenry to abide by them. The moment the citizenry begins to allow the government to trample a right is the moment that right cease to exists.

Notice how my explaination of what a right is is tied to how we can lose them versus the following notion: rights are granted by god. I love to ask the following question--So when a man is convicted of a crime, does god or man take away his rights when the man becomes a prisoner? The right I am referring to is his ability to travel freely.

( Of course I did have some one state that the "right to travel freely" is neither a human nor civil right because it was not listed in the constitution!! Surely this is promoting our forefathers to God-status. This is a terrible mistake even they would have shunned most quickly. They did not have the power of foresight and constructed their idea of a republic to the best of their abilities. But please do not think these men are without flaw or that they had the ability to list every right to protect the citizenry from a potentially oppressive government. It is up to us citizens to do the rest. )

 

[antagon]

hopelessly over your head. its like the three lil pigs thing, the last time you got stumped. you simply are one of the folks to use the constitution without any understanding of it. i quoted the ninth amendment for your review, however you insist on believing that rights have to be laid out in specifics. maybe wherever youre from. not in the united states.

Rights come from God.
You cannot not make or give someone an education , they have to take it, they have to acquire it .
You can lead a liberal to knowledge, but you cannot make them think.

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

The following are from the New Testament:

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

------------------------------------

So, did Gawd also make slavery? Was it "His" idea? After all, both father and son seem to approve.

folks... as i use it god or jefferson's creator are existentialist concepts. they mean that before and above any human input, they exist. the bible is a document written by humans... the constitution too... thus the de facto admission in the 9th. flipping through these documents to be aprised of your rights is for dolts.

if you guys are sincere in looking to these sources for proof of your rights you are out of touch with your humanity.

this is post-enlightenment existentialism ala JLocke and THobbes, whose ideas the founders incorporated in our charter. put the bibles and torahs down.

 

[The T]

Our rights in this country start with the Freedom to do anything as long as you do not infringe on another's Freedom.

Replace 'Freedom' With Liberty.

Freedom means the right to own Guns - But not the right to have taxpayers give you a FREE Gun! (which had to be written into the constitution because it is one of the first rights a free people loose to a tyrannical government ruler. That had to be clarified in the constitution)

See THIS post. You aren't too far off the mark.

Freedom means the right to an Education - But not the right to have taxpayers give you a FREE Education!

Both are your rights to pursue, acquire & have this country without government imposed restrictions, but Both need to be earned in this country & not given away freely.

Actually they are a natural Birthright of those BORN into citizenship. They must be earned by those seeking to come here and assimilate by test of demonstrated knowledge.

But i understand your premise, and as to that is is one that MOST citizens ignore, and will NEVER defend until it is in DANGER of being lost.

So therefore the Founders told us we ALWAYS as citizens MUST be ever watchful, vigilant for the signs of what we are about to lose. So it appears to me that too many are in the 'Rights taken for GRANTED column'...would you not agree? It's a matter of Good Citizenship.

As to education? It boils to responsibility *IF* a family, a society is to survive the ages. Therefore their 'RIGHT' is to educate their prodginy as they seem fit. (Or so it would seem)...Even wild animals TRAIN their offspring to get along/survive in their settings.

SO? What made it Mandatory for the 'Gubmint' to lay out an edict that your children MUST attend school...and at TAXPAYER EXPENSE?

See WIKI.... Long, and drawn out to be sure...but the bottom line? Societies do these things to ensure their Societies survive. (We could get into LAW on how this achieved, or rather should be achieved...but isn't for my discussion at this point and time...you have a few years to be here? I don't). So Government mandates it by LAW. Enough said. HOW has been uder debate for years with Homeschoolers, and the like...

-So- Here we are my friend...YES we have the right to TEACH our young skulls-full of mush, and the responsibility to do so IF we are to survive as a civil Society.

Your contention is what shall we teach? If it were up to me? The SKILLS to make it in society...and NOT the horseshit curriculum we see now dictated by the Government, and their accomplices in the -Teachers' Unions that are more concerned with their TENURE, and Pensions than they are with really teaching LIFE LESSONS...and real TRUTH.

The government does not take taxpayer funds & buy every toddler a gun, ammo, & shooting lessons.

True enough, nor should they.

You can earn the privilege to join the government military where taxpayers loan you a gun & let you shoot a bunch of government ammo. People have the right to own & carry guns but must earn their own guns & ammo. Government does not just hand them out to everyone.

In other words? JOIN the Military, And defend your Republic from those that seek to take it away? I heartily endorse it, It's a real character builder.

The government does take these rights from dangerous criminals who have infringed the rights of others.

NOW we are getting to the CRUX of your arguement...And YES. That is so. Thes people have demonstrated that they cannot live in civil society, and have shown a propensity for not following the rules of Society BY infringing on the liberties of others. THAT is why LAWS exist in the first place by the Constitution.

The government should not take taxpayer funds & educate people who are mentally retarded, undeserving, or disrupt class & the education of other students. Government funded education is a privilege students earn by scoring good grades & behaving well.

So they should removed out of the normal learning enviroment, as not to disrupt others and their purpose...I'm with you so far...

Students scoring failing grades should not to be passed on to higher levels of education.

True. They have shown that they have not learned enough to function in the cirricculum, and therefore require further time to learn it to the satisfaction of the set standards...(Now WHOM sets the standards...is another story, and a WHOPPER of a thread...huh...?).

The government should not force failing state run indoctrination upon children.

If you mean FEDERAL Government? Good Point. Heck, the Federal DOE should NOT exists at all. Things like School boards are a LOCAL affair entirely. i wonder HOW MANY School Boards, States like jumping through HOOPS to get their money back that should have NEVER been paid to the Federal Government in the first place...THIS is a CONTROL ISSUE.

Parents should be allowed to earn the privilege to choose a better than state education for their child using those same tax dollars by making sure their children score better than children in state run schools.

In a word? YES. WE spend more per capita per student than alot of countries have GDP wise. Is this why we fall behind? (And continue to)?

Truth is? The Education system is broken, and too many Politicians, have lost sight of this...by their blind obedience to UNIONS that seem to run things now, all for the SAKE of the UNION VOTE to remain ensconsed. (And Mind you...these unions were NEVER elected BY the people...so HOW for heaven's sake have THEY so much power)?

You will forgive me however for using YOUR particuliar post for what I've done here. I read what you wrote, and thought that I would expand a bit.

I tried to illustrate YOUR particuliar points by expanding on them with MY thoughts...So don't fret. *I* understood what your pont was. YOU are a Liberty loving individual that wants to be left alone. That much is certain.

~T

 

[NYcarbineer]

If they have a right to an education then taxpayers have a responsibility to provide the same. Every time a child is born my right not be a slave evaporates.

.

the tax payers do provide....the government takes your money....creats a school and makes you send your kid to it....and kids are required by law to attend school....

a university education is a different matter....

Prior to 1909 the "right" to a taxpayer financed education did not exist.

.

I fear that your hopes of going back to 1900 will be in vain.

 

[The T]

the tax payers do provide....the government takes your money....creats a school and makes you send your kid to it....and kids are required by law to attend school....

a university education is a different matter....

Prior to 1909 the "right" to a taxpayer financed education did not exist.

.

I fear that your hopes of going back to 1900 will be in vain.

-So says the Progressive moron.

 

[The Rabbi]

Rights come from God.
You cannot not make or give someone an education , they have to take it, they have to acquire it .
You can lead a liberal to knowledge, but you cannot make them think.

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

The following are from the New Testament:

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

------------------------------------

So, did Gawd also make slavery? Was it "His" idea? After all, both father and son seem to approve.

folks... as i use it god or jefferson's creator are existentialist concepts. they mean that before and above any human input, they exist. the bible is a document written by humans... the constitution too... thus the de facto admission in the 9th. flipping through these documents to be aprised of your rights is for dolts.

if you guys are sincere in looking to these sources for proof of your rights you are out of touch with your humanity.

this is post-enlightenment existentialism ala JLocke and THobbes, whose ideas the founders incorporated in our charter. put the bibles and torahs down.

Youa re avoiding the question.
So if the Bible does not provide information about what god wants, then what does? How has god communicated to you (or Jefferson for that matter) the information that education is a right?

 

[The T]

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

The following are from the New Testament:

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

------------------------------------

So, did Gawd also make slavery? Was it "His" idea? After all, both father and son seem to approve.

folks... as i use it god or jefferson's creator are existentialist concepts. they mean that before and above any human input, they exist. the bible is a document written by humans... the constitution too... thus the de facto admission in the 9th. flipping through these documents to be aprised of your rights is for dolts.

if you guys are sincere in looking to these sources for proof of your rights you are out of touch with your humanity.

this is post-enlightenment existentialism ala JLocke and THobbes, whose ideas the founders incorporated in our charter. put the bibles and torahs down.

Youa re avoiding the question.
So if the Bible does not provide information about what god wants, then what does? How has god communicated to you (or Jefferson for that matter) the information that education is a right?

True dat. Education is NOT a right, it's an obligation put upon Societies if they want to survive.

 

[Oscar Wao]

Education is not a right; it is a responsibility. Plain and simple.

 

[NYcarbineer]

You have failed to prove that there is a right to education specifically. No amount of spinning will produce it because it is not there.
Sorry. Thanks for playing.

hopelessly over your head. its like the three lil pigs thing, the last time you got stumped. you simply are one of the folks to use the constitution without any understanding of it. i quoted the ninth amendment for your review, however you insist on believing that rights have to be laid out in specifics. maybe wherever youre from. not in the united states.

Easy to say when you can't answer the question.
Once again: I know there is a right to keep and bear arms because the 2A says so. How do you know there is a right to education?

Can you deny Catholics the right to establish parochial schools?

 

[Contumacious]

the tax payers do provide....the government takes your money....creats a school and makes you send your kid to it....and kids are required by law to attend school....

a university education is a different matter....

Prior to 1909 the "right" to a taxpayer financed education did not exist.

.

times are a changing.......

.....for the worse.

Now children spent 12 years being indoctrinated in state supremacy.

.

 

[The Rabbi]

hopelessly over your head. its like the three lil pigs thing, the last time you got stumped. you simply are one of the folks to use the constitution without any understanding of it. i quoted the ninth amendment for your review, however you insist on believing that rights have to be laid out in specifics. maybe wherever youre from. not in the united states.

Easy to say when you can't answer the question.
Once again: I know there is a right to keep and bear arms because the 2A says so. How do you know there is a right to education?

Can you deny Catholics the right to establish parochial schools?

Nope. Guaranteed by the 1st Amendment.

 

[Care4all]

''Tenth Amendment''
Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

 

[Wicked Jester]

K thru 12 is a definite right.

Higher ed is ones own responsibility, or the responsibility of ones parents to provide.

What we are seeing is the progressive leftys (socialist, communist scum) attempt to dumb down this nation to their level. It used to be that students were encouraged to work hard towards those college scholarships. What the left wants is a guarantee that no matter how stupid you are, you're going to get that free ride to college. So, what we will have is untold numbers of taxpayers dollars going towards sending a bunch of unmotivated dumbasses to college who will never be able to graduate because they didn't spend the time in K thru 12 actually working hard on their educations. Oh, but then we all know the proggresive scumbags will be wailing to have them graduated, regardless of the fact that they don't deserve to be. And that's a god damn fact!

Before you know it, the progressive scumbags are going to be wailing for free healthcare and education for all family pets born in the US.

Screw the progressives!

 

[antagon]

this is post-enlightenment existentialism ala JLocke and THobbes, whose ideas the founders incorporated in our charter. put the bibles and torahs down.

Youa re avoiding the question.
So if the Bible does not provide information about what god wants, then what does? How has god communicated to you (or Jefferson for that matter) the information that education is a right?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, dumbass. its an american thing... you'll know when you get there.

 

[G.T.]

I'm a firm believer that Rights were given to us by the minds of Men, not by simply being born or a "creator." It's sad, but it's true in my eyes.

So, it's one that I'd add to the list that I believe men made to begin with. Why? Because I feel that Education partly pertains to Security. Pen vs. Sword, and all of that.

 

[The Rabbi]

this is post-enlightenment existentialism ala JLocke and THobbes, whose ideas the founders incorporated in our charter. put the bibles and torahs down.

Youa re avoiding the question.
So if the Bible does not provide information about what god wants, then what does? How has god communicated to you (or Jefferson for that matter) the information that education is a right?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, dumbass. its an american thing... you'll know when you get there.

OK, so an ipse dixit fallacy is the best you can do here. It must be "self evident".
Hey, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell. It's mine, I assure you. It's self evident.

What a 'tard.

 

[editec]

EDUCATION isn't a right...its a responsibility though.

Each generation is RESPONSIBLE for teaching the next.

This debate couldn't exist if we could agree on the meaning of the world "Right".

Sadly we cannot.

Some of you think rights are something that comes from GOD.

Some of us think that rights are something that exist only as a manifestation of society.

Do any of us have the right to exist?

Perhaps...but is that right unalienable?

Of course not.

Anyone of us can deny anyone every RIGHT most of us think we have.

Dead people have no rights.

 

[G.T.]

EDUCATION isn't a right...its a responsibility though.

Each generation is RESPONSIBLE for teaching the next.

This debate couldn't exist if we could agree on the meaning of the world "Right".

Sadly we cannot.

Some of you think rights are something that comes from GOD.

Some of us think that rights are something that exist only as a manifestation of society.

Do any of us have the right to exist?

Perhaps...but is that right unalienable?

Of course not.

Anyone of us can deny anyone every RIGHT most of us think we have.

Dead people have no rights.

Basically what I meant by my post. Rights (per our Documents) given by a creator? Because "Men" said so?.....doesn't fly with me.

 

[midcan5]

"I don't know what's the matter with people: they don't learn by understanding; they learn by some other way -- by rote, or something. Their knowledge is so fragile!" Richard Feynman


In logic the original question is a type three error, it is the wrong question. Education is too important to ask the question so that the wingnuts for freedom (whatever that is) turn it down based on a Pavlovian thought process that somehow tells them anything 'free' is bad. 'Free' of course entails other costs which they abhor. Greed and selfishness have never left the human soul.

Education is an essential ingredient for a civilized society and education should be liberal, tolerant, broad based, historical and rational. At the early stages it should be rudimentary reading writing and arithmetic. Later it should cover reality as it is and not how some want it to be. There is the crux of the problem. My view is idealistic, but since we still kill and hate each other so easily we need idealism.



"The new conflict is between liberal universalism and a communitarianism which asserts the need for cultures to maintain their own values and traditions. Is the latter just a temporary brake on the former, or will the universalist dream die? One of the tasks of politics is to work out which values are universal and which are not." Julian Baggini