Educate the LayPeople

[WillowTree]

Here's another good article on it, with perhaps an explanation that Willow can understand.

That raised the question of whether a fill-in-the-bubble exam was really the best way to evaluate whether someone was suited to a leadership position in the fire department. In fact, the company that made the test admitted that some of the items were "irrelevant" in New Haven. One question, for example, asked the test-takers whether fire equipment should be parked "uptown, downtown or underground when arriving at a fire." The question was based on information relevant to New York City firefighters, and was on the exam even though the city of New Haven has no "uptown" or "downtown."

The fact that whites were disproportionately represented among the top scorers on the test is not surprising. Whites and some Asian American groups, on average, score higher than African Americans, Latinos and other Asian American groups on fill-in-the-bubble tests. Researchers have offered a host of reasons to explain racial gaps in test scores, including disparities in financial, educational and cultural resources, as well as psychological phenomena.

But New Haven did not scrap its promotion list simply because whites had higher scores on the test than minorities. The city understood that Title VII does not automatically prohibit employers from using tests on which whites do better than minorities. In fact, the law acknowledges that tests are useful for evaluating and comparing job applicants. But, under Title VII, it would be illegal for a city to promote firefighters based largely on a test that is not a good measure of a junior firefighter's worthiness to be promoted.

New Haven's attorney correctly interpreted Title VII to mean that the city's firefighter test should measure "who is going to be a good supervisor ultimately, not who is going to be a good test-taker." In other cases, judges have concluded, based on expert testimony, that written, multiple-choice tests for firefighter promotion like the one in this case contain the "fatal flaw" of failing to test for "supervisory ability." The company that made the New Haven Fire Department exam acknowledges that its test does not include any questions that measure a test-taker's ability to supervise or lead other firefighters in the line of duty.

Ricci vs. DeStefano: A test on race - Los Angeles Times

I think a fair review of this SCOTUS nominee should not disqualify her for her ruling on this case. Of course, we are talking about Republicans here.

I think I'm getting it now.. We are going to need one test for blacks, one for whites, one for hispanics, one for chinese, one for Japanese, one for Hatians and one for Hondurans.. yep it's becoming clear.

 

[Fraulein Hilda]

And just because we are all educated in the same society, we have similar educations? Thats an odd viewpoint to have.

Obviously not. Since some have been educated to understand their failure to pass the test is inherently discrimination and thus there is no expectation that they can pass the test.

So they rise to those expectations.

 

[WillowTree]

would it be more fair to have just tests that are essay questions???

 

[WillowTree]

are there special bar exams for black lawyers???



are there special board exams for black physicians???

 

[Ravi]

Here's another good article on it, with perhaps an explanation that Willow can understand.

That raised the question of whether a fill-in-the-bubble exam was really the best way to evaluate whether someone was suited to a leadership position in the fire department. In fact, the company that made the test admitted that some of the items were "irrelevant" in New Haven. One question, for example, asked the test-takers whether fire equipment should be parked "uptown, downtown or underground when arriving at a fire." The question was based on information relevant to New York City firefighters, and was on the exam even though the city of New Haven has no "uptown" or "downtown."

The fact that whites were disproportionately represented among the top scorers on the test is not surprising. Whites and some Asian American groups, on average, score higher than African Americans, Latinos and other Asian American groups on fill-in-the-bubble tests. Researchers have offered a host of reasons to explain racial gaps in test scores, including disparities in financial, educational and cultural resources, as well as psychological phenomena.

But New Haven did not scrap its promotion list simply because whites had higher scores on the test than minorities. The city understood that Title VII does not automatically prohibit employers from using tests on which whites do better than minorities. In fact, the law acknowledges that tests are useful for evaluating and comparing job applicants. But, under Title VII, it would be illegal for a city to promote firefighters based largely on a test that is not a good measure of a junior firefighter's worthiness to be promoted.

New Haven's attorney correctly interpreted Title VII to mean that the city's firefighter test should measure "who is going to be a good supervisor ultimately, not who is going to be a good test-taker." In other cases, judges have concluded, based on expert testimony, that written, multiple-choice tests for firefighter promotion like the one in this case contain the "fatal flaw" of failing to test for "supervisory ability." The company that made the New Haven Fire Department exam acknowledges that its test does not include any questions that measure a test-taker's ability to supervise or lead other firefighters in the line of duty.

Ricci vs. DeStefano: A test on race - Los Angeles Times

I think a fair review of this SCOTUS nominee should not disqualify her for her ruling on this case. Of course, we are talking about Republicans here.

I think I'm getting it now.. We are going to need one test for blacks, one for whites, one for hispanics, one for chinese, one for Japanese, one for Hatians and one for Hondurans.. yep it's becoming clear.

No...that isn't the answer. They need a test, or just an interview, that isn't biased at all...if that's possible. For instance, they couldn't use ebonics as a language to test in because it could unfairly discriminate against whites.

 

[WillowTree]

Here's another good article on it, with perhaps an explanation that Willow can understand.

Ricci vs. DeStefano: A test on race - Los Angeles Times

I think a fair review of this SCOTUS nominee should not disqualify her for her ruling on this case. Of course, we are talking about Republicans here.

I think I'm getting it now.. We are going to need one test for blacks, one for whites, one for hispanics, one for chinese, one for Japanese, one for Hatians and one for Hondurans.. yep it's becoming clear.

No...that isn't the answer. They need a test, or just an interview, that isn't biased at all...if that's possible. For instance, they couldn't use ebonics as a language to test in because it could unfairly discriminate against whites.

so do black lawyers take the same bar exam??


do black physicians take the same boards??


why should firefighters be any different?? doyathink?

 

[Fraulein Hilda]

are there special bar exams for black lawyers???



are there special board exams for black physicians???

Yes, it would be one which they would be assured of passing.

So why take the test?

 

[Nik]

And just because we are all educated in the same society, we have similar educations? Thats an odd viewpoint to have.

Obviously not. Since some have been educated to understand their failure to pass the test is inherently discrimination and thus there is no expectation that they can pass the test.

So they rise to those expectations.

Yes, they've all been educated to believe that. Except that what Title VII exactly says isn't common knowledge, as demonstrated by several on this thread.

 

[WillowTree]

are there special bar exams for black lawyers???



are there special board exams for black physicians???

Yes, it would be one which they would be assured of passing.

So why take the test?

beats me!

 

[Fraulein Hilda]

And just because we are all educated in the same society, we have similar educations? Thats an odd viewpoint to have.

Obviously not. Since some have been educated to understand their failure to pass the test is inherently discrimination and thus there is no expectation that they can pass the test.

So they rise to those expectations.

Yes, they've all been educated to believe that. Except that what Title VII exactly says isn't common knowledge, as demonstrated by several on this thread.

Give me an example of a "justified" adverse effect on members of a protected class passing a test.

 

[Ravi]

I think I'm getting it now.. We are going to need one test for blacks, one for whites, one for hispanics, one for chinese, one for Japanese, one for Hatians and one for Hondurans.. yep it's becoming clear.

No...that isn't the answer. They need a test, or just an interview, that isn't biased at all...if that's possible. For instance, they couldn't use ebonics as a language to test in because it could unfairly discriminate against whites.

so do black lawyers take the same bar exam??


do black physicians take the same boards??


why should firefighters be any different?? doyathink?

Doctors and lawyers are tested on very narrowly focused knowledge after years of education directed toward the end result. The same thing cannot be said about firefighters or even supervisory roles, which was the case in this instance.

 

[Tech_Esq]

are there special bar exams for black lawyers???



are there special board exams for black physicians???

Nope, they don't have special exams for lawyers anyway.

Although when I took the Bar in Virginia the pass rate was only 52%. I'm not sure what the rate was for minorities.

We did one day of multi-state (questions generally applicable to all the states). That was 200 multiple choice (fill in the bubble) in the morning and 200 in the afternoon.

We did one morning of essay questions. I think it was 3 regular value questions and one double value question. Then 2 regular value questions in the afternoon followed by a short answer, fill in the blank section. (Instant death).

I think in later years there was some discussion about making it more practical by giving candidate case files and having them work with the case files as a "hands-on" portion of the test. I haven't heard anyone say the Bar is discriminatory though.

 

[Fraulein Hilda]

No...that isn't the answer. They need a test, or just an interview, that isn't biased at all...if that's possible. For instance, they couldn't use ebonics as a language to test in because it could unfairly discriminate against whites.

so do black lawyers take the same bar exam??


do black physicians take the same boards??


why should firefighters be any different?? doyathink?

Doctors and lawyers are tested on very narrowly focused knowledge after years of education directed toward the end result. The same thing cannot be said about firefighters or even supervisory roles, which was the case in this instance.

Give us examples of the lack of "narrowness" of the knowledge firefighters and supervisors are tested, on, specifically those that disenfranchise minorities?

 

[Tech_Esq]

No...that isn't the answer. They need a test, or just an interview, that isn't biased at all...if that's possible. For instance, they couldn't use ebonics as a language to test in because it could unfairly discriminate against whites.

so do black lawyers take the same bar exam??


do black physicians take the same boards??


why should firefighters be any different?? doyathink?

Doctors and lawyers are tested on very narrowly focused knowledge after years of education directed toward the end result. The same thing cannot be said about firefighters or even supervisory roles, which was the case in this instance.

Since these tests were just for promotion, I would think the same thing could be said for firefighters. The focus would be on the skills required to perform the job at the next level.

It would be very similar to the Skill Qualifying Tests in the Army I would think.

 

[Nik]

are there special bar exams for black lawyers???



are there special board exams for black physicians???

Yes, it would be one which they would be assured of passing.

So why take the test?

Really? Give me examples of anyone who as advocated that.

 

[Fraulein Hilda]

are there special bar exams for black lawyers???



are there special board exams for black physicians???

Yes, it would be one which they would be assured of passing.

So why take the test?

Really? Give me examples of anyone who as advocated that.

No one did. But why have the test?

 

[Tech_Esq]

Thats not hiding the ball. Hiding the ball would be steering someone towards a different answer or having them tease the answer out. Providing them an answer without bothering to fully explain that they don't know what the fuck they are talking about is me not feeling the need to fully educate everyone I come into contact with.

I would say you were precisely engaged in just that. If you didn't want to educate anyone, why would you post on a thread specifically for lay-people to get educated? That's not teasing? Maybe it's just taunting.

Of course you would. In a thread where conservatives are arguing with liberals and you happen to know the liberals are right, you can't just come out and say that. You have to attack the liberals while doing so. "Well, you are right...but right in the wrong way, so shame on you!"

And the title of the thread was obviously facetious.

Because the thread isn't filled with comments from lay people? Seems accurate to me.

I disagree. I know the "answer." It's another matter whether I agree or disagree with "the answer." I'm a lawyer, I can advocate for either side whether I believe in it or not.

They did teach you that at your law school right?

 

[WillowTree]

No...that isn't the answer. They need a test, or just an interview, that isn't biased at all...if that's possible. For instance, they couldn't use ebonics as a language to test in because it could unfairly discriminate against whites.

so do black lawyers take the same bar exam??


do black physicians take the same boards??


why should firefighters be any different?? doyathink?

Doctors and lawyers are tested on very narrowly focused knowledge after years of education directed toward the end result. The same thing cannot be said about firefighters or even supervisory roles, which was the case in this instance.

how are firefighters not narrowly focused?

 

[WillowTree]

I would say you were precisely engaged in just that. If you didn't want to educate anyone, why would you post on a thread specifically for lay-people to get educated? That's not teasing? Maybe it's just taunting.

Of course you would. In a thread where conservatives are arguing with liberals and you happen to know the liberals are right, you can't just come out and say that. You have to attack the liberals while doing so. "Well, you are right...but right in the wrong way, so shame on you!"

And the title of the thread was obviously facetious.

Because the thread isn't filled with comments from lay people? Seems accurate to me.

I disagree. I know the "answer." It's another matter whether I agree or disagree with "the answer." I'm a lawyer, I can advocate for either side whether I believe in it or not.

They did teach you that at your law school right?

while yer at it would you ask "counsel" what was "obviously facetious" about the title? damn,, laypeople just cannot catch a break!

 

[Nik]

I would say you were precisely engaged in just that. If you didn't want to educate anyone, why would you post on a thread specifically for lay-people to get educated? That's not teasing? Maybe it's just taunting.

Of course you would. In a thread where conservatives are arguing with liberals and you happen to know the liberals are right, you can't just come out and say that. You have to attack the liberals while doing so. "Well, you are right...but right in the wrong way, so shame on you!"

And the title of the thread was obviously facetious.

Because the thread isn't filled with comments from lay people? Seems accurate to me.

The thread is filled with assertions from lay people. Not exactly people looking to get educated.

I disagree. I know the "answer." It's another matter whether I agree or disagree with "the answer." I'm a lawyer, I can advocate for either side whether I believe in it or not.

They did teach you that at your law school right?

Way to miss the point. When you attempted to rebuke me, we were merely looking at the truth of the issue. What Title VII does and says. Not whether its justified in what it does.

And feel free to argue things you don't believe in. If you are an attorney you are (hopefully) getting paid to do so, and its called representation. If you just do it randomly, its called being schizophrenic. Feel free to act on your mental illness if you so desire, but don't relate it to being an attorney.