Economics, Elections and Effects

[Mr. Right]

Our government has been implementing socialism for over 6 decades. The results are a weakening of our moral fiber and now a lower class of people who expect handouts.

Being taxed or forced to pay for the less fortunate doesn't make us better people. In fact it makes giving to charity less likely. We are more likely to look at charities and expect the government to do it for us instead. This is what you get with progressive taxes.

So in the end we become what liberals want us to be, dependants. We have a system that limits the amount one can invest tax free [the Roth IRA]. It also punishes those who produce. Now they want to punish you for using energy. You already pay for it once, taxing it will only increase the burden and cause economic hardship. This doesn't help the poor. It hurts them.

Liberals with all of their gimmicks are slowly bleeding the American people into submission. Their religious Zeal can only be realised with a willing electorate who has been guilted into voting for them and their "superior" ideals.

These people are always wrong about what they believe. Any solution for them will always have "education" attached. The word education really means more money to push their ideology. They will eventually get what they want and then it will be too late. Our wonderful system of free markets and middle class success will be so far eroded that food will be fought over. This is unheard of in America but it is coming.

If the Leftists have their way, we'll be standing in line for toilet paper. Our nation will consist of a populous that will be unwilling to fight for their own freedom and rights. The government will do everything for them. There will be no sense if achievement. No one will have control over their own lives. People will live in fear that the police will take them away for having non-liberal thoughts.

Does this sound familiar? It's just what the Soviet Union was. This is where we're heading if Barack, Schumer, Clinton, Pelosi and others have their way.

There's only one way to purge ourselves from the tyranny that awaits us all. Vote republican. I don't mean the current crop either. Real conservatives are the answer.

We need our freedoms secured as individuals. The group thing doesn't work. We're not all equal because we're not all the same. Equality sounds nice but it's unachievable. Justice is not equality. They've been duping people into that mindset because it seems easy to understand.

Liberals say they want to improve the human condition. In reality they only harm human beings. Their policies have created generations of needy.


Here's how to fix this mentality.

The next time someone you know needs real help. Organise and help them on a local level. This reinforces the fact that we don't need big government. It also helps the person in need. When the government does this, there is less shame and people will be less likely to help themselves.

Economics and government don't mix. This is why the Federal government should divorce itself from the market and leave well enough alone. Market manipulation will be the downfall of western society.

Markets fix themselves just like people do.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

Placing total faith in 'markets' to fix everything is no different than placing total faith in government to fix anything, or God for that matter. The fact is that, like in pretty much everything else, most should be done in moderation. In theory, markets are perfect and self-correcting, but not quite so in fact, unless everyone has access to the right information and everyone has at least some sort of equality of opportunity- not even to mention at least acceptable levels of competitiveness in industries (no price-fixing oligopolies which are just SO prone to pop up). Until we get there, markets can fail, just as governments do.

Not so sure where you're taking this thread, but I guess in general theory, yeah, government should cease to exist at some point, in the great scheme of things. Now it's not really the time, not while there's such a ridiculously unequal distribution of wealth on this earth.

 

[Mr. Right]

What are they after?

They are incremental in nature. If their side loses a debate and the people vote away from their views, they find ways usually through the courts to create new law.

This is passive aggressive.

They [the left] are for one giant behemoth government. One world overlord. One currency. Everything will be taxed and everyone will work for the common good. This is a melding of Socialism and Fascism.

The State will rule over every part of your life. Look at China. This is the model the left will use as socialism and it's success. In reality this new system will erode into Feudalism.

This will cause the biggest war in history. The really "Big One".


The first step into Global control is money. The Euro for Europe.

Now the "Amero"..

Have you heard of this concept?

The Amero will replace the dollar. after this Asia will do the same and then they all can meld into one final economic system.

Then the crash will happen. It will happen because they [the ruling despotic leftist] want it to happen.

Mark my words. All of this paranoia is warranted.

 

[Mr. Right]

Placing total faith in 'markets' to fix everything is no different than placing total faith in government to fix anything, or God for that matter. The fact is that, like in pretty much everything else, most should be done in moderation. In theory, markets are perfect and self-correcting, but not quite so in fact, unless everyone has access to the right information and everyone has at least some sort of equality of opportunity- not even to mention at least acceptable levels of competitiveness in industries (no price-fixing oligopolies which are just SO prone to pop up). Until we get there, markets can fail, just as governments do.

Not so sure where you're taking this thread, but I guess in general theory, yeah, government should cease to exist at some point, in the great scheme of things. Now it's not really the time, not while there's such a ridiculously unequal distribution of wealth on this earth.

why are you after equal distribution?

Do you realise what you get with that?

At what point do you realise that they are taking too much of your money?

Where's the incentive ?

 

[Epsilon Delta]

Holy crap, you guys are confusing soooo many things together by placing these issues into a stark Left-Right dichotomy. The Amero and the so-called "North American Union", NAFTA, the Super Highway, etc. are concepts usually totaly contrary to the "anti-globalization" """""left""""" (World Social Forum, etc).

The simple truth is that left and right don't form a line but a circle, and the farthest fringes of left and right on both sides of... both sides (I guess) touch each other on more issues than their counterparts on... (dammit) both sides. Even to discuss it jumbles it together. You can't really categorize what each side stands for without confusion- it is a ridiculous and outdated terminology.

EDIT: To respond to the above post, it's well established that there's always going to be a certain inequality and that such inequality actually has beneficial effects because of the incentive it gives. I'm not against that at all. It is the EXTREME inequality of wealth that exists in the world as it is today, figures which are astounding, which is also very harming for growth. It's a balance we have yet to achieve.

 

[editec]

Our government has been implementing socialism for over 6 decades. The results are a weakening of our moral fiber and now a lower class of people who expect handouts.

An argument not entirely without merit.

Being taxed or forced to pay for the less fortunate doesn't make us better people. In fact it makes giving to charity less likely. We are more likely to look at charities and expect the government to do it for us instead. This is what you get with progressive taxes.

I suspect that people inclined to charitable works or contributions do so regardless of taxation.

So in the end we become what liberals want us to be, dependants.

Partisan nonsense. Those in power want us all to be dependent and desperate regardless of what flag they rally around.

We have a system that limits the amount one can invest tax free [the Roth IRA].

True.

It also punishes those who produce.

True, also.

Now they want to punish you for using energy. You already pay for it once, taxing it will only increase the burden and cause economic hardship. This doesn't help the poor. It hurts them.

True, true, true, true and true again.

Liberals with all of their gimmicks are slowly bleeding the American people into submission. Their religious Zeal can only be realised with a willing electorate who has been guilted into voting for them and their "superior" ideals.

The concept good cop/bad cop isn't one you subscribe to, I guess, eh?

These people are always wrong about what they believe. Any solution for them will always have "education" attached. The word education really means more money to push their ideology.They will eventually get what they want and then it will be too late.

Here's a thought...pay attention to which people EXACTLY. Sweeping gneralizations do none of us any good.

Our wonderful system of free markets and middle class success will be so far eroded that food will be fought over. This is unheard of in America but it is coming.

When you determine who benefits from the system that is causing this problem, and who controlled the specific policies which you, I think correctly describe as destroying the American way of life, when you put away your simplistic good guy bad guy world view, you're going to get even angrier than you are now, I think.

I know that's what happened to me, at least.

If the Leftists have their way, we'll be standing in line for toilet paper. Our nation will consist of a populous that will be unwilling to fight for their own freedom and rights. The government will do everything for them. There will be no sense if achievement. No one will have control over their own lives. People will live in fear that the police will take them away for having non-liberal thoughts.

Again, you understand the problem but are somewhat confused as to how the game is played against you.

Does this sound familiar? It's just what the Soviet Union was. This is where we're heading if Barack, Schumer, Clinton, Pelosi and others have their way.

The people gaming the American system to their benefit, and against yours and mines are so much smarter than those Communists, sport, you still can't believe it. I know it took me years before I could.

There's only one way to purge ourselves from the tyranny that awaits us all. Vote republican. I don't mean the current crop either. Real conservatives are the answer.

I didn't have any real trouble pulling the lever for Olympia Snowe last election. There still are, I think, some authentic conservatives in the Republican party. then too, there's the Stevens types, and the neo-cons, that I have absolutely no doubt you helped put into office.

It's hard to tell the players without a scorecard, isn't it?

We need our freedoms secured as individuals. The group thing doesn't work. We're not all equal because we're not all the same. Equality sounds nice but it's unachievable. Justice is not equality. They've been duping people into that mindset because it seems easy to understand.

Balancing personal freedom against needs of society has always been the hardest thing any society has tried. I'm still charmed that we've done so well as we did, but of course it does seem to me to be getting worse.

Liberals say they want to improve the human condition. In reality they only harm human beings. Their policies have created generations of needy.

The poor will always be among us.

Here's how to fix this mentality.

The next time someone you know needs real help. Organise and help them on a local level. This reinforces the fact that we don't need big government. It also helps the person in need. When the government does this, there is less shame and people will be less likely to help themselves.

Good idea.

Economics and government don't mix. This is why the Federal government should divorce itself from the market and leave well enough alone. Market manipulation will be the downfall of western society.

Economics and government have never NOT mixed, sport. There has never been a free market.

Markets fix themselves just like people do.

A completely free economy is in some sense of the word, a self correcting system.

But sans some government having a market at all is pretty much impossible.

Therein lies the rub.

In order to minimize the evil natures of truly bad people, we create governments to provide us with a stable society which makes it possible for creative, industrious people to produce in peace.

Eventually, because power inevitably corrupts, the government itself becomes part of the problem.

This is bad enough, of course.

But given that when the government also become the problem, they also fail to provide the functional society where people truly are safe, reasonable men get unreasonable, and sane men are driven mad.

You say the liberal elite are the problem?

I say you've got about half the story right.

Perhaps you should change your name to Mr. Half-Right

 

[Mr. Right]

I know my rant was a lengthy one.


I usually like to keep it simple.

The problem with our political system is the campaign never ends.

I would love to serve as a congressman. Just for one term and then quit. I'd only have one goal.

Replace the income tax with a sales tax. and make all other forms of taxation illegal.

the federal tax would be 15%



the states and locals could piggy back their own sales tax of 5%

this would allow for apportionment.

Our founders were wise. Since then we've been tampering with a good thing.

my middle name is always

Marxism doesn't work. Capitalism does. It's that simple.

 

[Jeepers]

I usually like to keep it simple.

simple in mind..

 

[Chris]

I know my rant was a lengthy one.


I usually like to keep it simple.

The problem with our political system is the campaign never ends.

I would love to serve as a congressman. Just for one term and then quit. I'd only have one goal.

Replace the income tax with a sales tax. and make all other forms of taxation illegal.

the federal tax would be 15%



the states and locals could piggy back their own sales tax of 5%

this would allow for apportionment.

Our founders were wise. Since then we've been tampering with a good thing.

my middle name is always

Marxism doesn't work. Capitalism does. It's that simple.

A tax on consumption helps the rich and hurts the poor.

Typical Republican....

 

[dilloduck]

A tax on consumption helps the rich and hurts the poor.

Typical Republican....

A tax on consumption hurts whoever consumes the most.

 

[Chris]

A tax on consumption hurts whoever consumes the most.

No, a tax on consumption takes a bigger percentage of the poor and the middle class's income than the rich.

 

[dilloduck]

No, a tax on consumption takes a bigger percentage of the poor and the middle class's income than the rich.

If they aren't willnig to work for a higher paying job then they should work on consuming less.

 

[Foxfyre]

I favor a flat income tax rather than a sales tax for several reasons. I rarely agree with Kirk on much, but he is right that a sales tax is regressive by forcing the poorest of the poor to pay it simply to live while the rich, who can afford a tax on the essentials without feeling them at all, have an option to spend/pay tax otherwise. Further a 'consumption tax', which is what a sales tax is, would be occurring on so many levels as to multiply it many times over.

Any measure to exempt certain 'basic essentials' from taxation or tax only a certain kind of consumption will also benefit the rich more than the poor as well as so complicate the system that it will remain an accounting nightmare full of loopholes, bartering, and boondoggles.

A flat income tax on adjusted gross income from any source paid by anybody and everybody who earns income is the only simple and equitable way to impose taxes. The 'adjusted' part would exclude all or most tax on the income of the very poor.

 

[Paulie]

Placing total faith in 'markets' to fix everything is no different than placing total faith in government to fix anything, or God for that matter. The fact is that, like in pretty much everything else, most should be done in moderation. In theory, markets are perfect and self-correcting, but not quite so in fact, unless everyone has access to the right information and everyone has at least some sort of equality of opportunity- not even to mention at least acceptable levels of competitiveness in industries (no price-fixing oligopolies which are just SO prone to pop up). Until we get there, markets can fail, just as governments do.

Not so sure where you're taking this thread, but I guess in general theory, yeah, government should cease to exist at some point, in the great scheme of things. Now it's not really the time, not while there's such a ridiculously unequal distribution of wealth on this earth.

I'm inclined to think government causes failure in the market far more than consumers do. Most of the mis-education in consumers is brought on by the blockades of regulations keeping consumers from having all choices available to them.

The housing problem, for instance, is a problem caused by a sense of "entitlement" within consumers. People thought they were ENTITLED to own a home, because this is America afterall, and that's the dream. Banks loosened their policies, and people saw an opportunity. It probably WAS a good opportunity too, had people not felt a sense of ENTITLEMENT to own a home. You are entitled to NOTHING in this country except your inalienable rights spelled out in the D.O.I. and the constitution. Beyond that, you get nothing you don't work for. At least, that's how it USED to be before government came in and regulated everything down to the fucking AIR you breathe, so to speak.

Public education certainly hasn't made the landscape ripe for consumer knowledge, either. We're taught to TRUST everything government does.

The problem-reaction-solution method has been used against us for so long, that we are dependant on the govenrment for just about everything. Every problem you can imagine in society throughout history, government has been there to "save us" from it.

Check out a documentary movie called "Off the grid: Life on the Mesa" Off the Grid: Life on the Mesa (2007). It's about a bunch of people in the New Mexico desert, that have left normal society to live basically off the system. It's a little extreme, in that they are more of anarchists than anything else, but they live a happy life, and their community takes care of itself. It depends on NOTHING the government provides. Perhaps it's not paradise, but they enjoy it and it WORKS for them.

Just food for thought.

 

[editec]

I might be for a VAT tax if it was designed not to tax most necessities, food shelter and (cheaper) clothing.

But a VAT tax on everything?

Maybe a progressive VAT might do it.

But a cheap car, pay X%, But a Hummer pay X+% or soemthing like that.

But a simple across the board tax system will crush the working class, while the truly wealthy's net worth would go into the stratoshpere.

You'd have to put real safeguards into it before I'm sign onto it.

You could start, by taxing investments, for example.

But that just defeats the benefit of creating a national sales tax, anyway.

Remember, no matter how we design taxation, getting the governemtn's spending under control (while maintaining an appropriate level of services) is still going to be the problem.

 

[watermark]

Our government has been implementing socialism for over 6 decades. The results are a weakening of our moral fiber and now a lower class of people who expect handouts.

Being taxed or forced to pay for the less fortunate doesn't make us better people. In fact it makes giving to charity less likely. We are more likely to look at charities and expect the government to do it for us instead. This is what you get with progressive taxes.

So in the end we become what liberals want us to be, dependants. We have a system that limits the amount one can invest tax free [the Roth IRA]. It also punishes those who produce. Now they want to punish you for using energy. You already pay for it once, taxing it will only increase the burden and cause economic hardship. This doesn't help the poor. It hurts them.

Liberals with all of their gimmicks are slowly bleeding the American people into submission. Their religious Zeal can only be realised with a willing electorate who has been guilted into voting for them and their "superior" ideals.

These people are always wrong about what they believe. Any solution for them will always have "education" attached. The word education really means more money to push their ideology. They will eventually get what they want and then it will be too late. Our wonderful system of free markets and middle class success will be so far eroded that food will be fought over. This is unheard of in America but it is coming.

If the Leftists have their way, we'll be standing in line for toilet paper. Our nation will consist of a populous that will be unwilling to fight for their own freedom and rights. The government will do everything for them. There will be no sense if achievement. No one will have control over their own lives. People will live in fear that the police will take them away for having non-liberal thoughts.

Does this sound familiar? It's just what the Soviet Union was. This is where we're heading if Barack, Schumer, Clinton, Pelosi and others have their way.

There's only one way to purge ourselves from the tyranny that awaits us all. Vote republican. I don't mean the current crop either. Real conservatives are the answer.

We need our freedoms secured as individuals. The group thing doesn't work. We're not all equal because we're not all the same. Equality sounds nice but it's unachievable. Justice is not equality. They've been duping people into that mindset because it seems easy to understand.

Liberals say they want to improve the human condition. In reality they only harm human beings. Their policies have created generations of needy.


Here's how to fix this mentality.

The next time someone you know needs real help. Organise and help them on a local level. This reinforces the fact that we don't need big government. It also helps the person in need. When the government does this, there is less shame and people will be less likely to help themselves.

Economics and government don't mix. This is why the Federal government should divorce itself from the market and leave well enough alone. Market manipulation will be the downfall of western society.

Markets fix themselves just like people do.

Stop listening to so much Limbaugh, you're poisoning your mind.

 

[editec]

I'm inclined to think government causes failure in the market far more than consumers do. Most of the mis-education in consumers is brought on by the blockades of regulations keeping consumers from having all choices available to them.

Generally speaking, our entire economic system is based on the presumption that people do what is in their best interests (as they see it).

Given that, the only way to prevent people from doing things like buying homes is to create an environment where home ownership is not in their best interests.

Now had the real estate economy (and the prime rate) not changed directions, most of the people who purchased homes recently would not be in trouble.

My point is, for you libertarians who still don't get this, there is NO WAY yo get government OUT of the market, because the MARKET depends on the government controlling the money supply.

Public education certainly hasn't made the landscape ripe for consumer knowledge, either. We're taught to TRUST everything government does.

Nobody TRUSTS the government. We have had no choice but to live with it.

The problem-reaction-solution method has been used against us for so long, that we are dependant on the govenrment for just about everything. Every problem you can imagine in society throughout history, government has been there to "save us" from it.

You're an anarchist? Anarchy lasts just as long as there is ONE person. the moment there are TWO people, anarchy is dead, and some form of control in in place.

Check out a documentary movie called "Off the grid: Life on the Mesa" Off the Grid: Life on the Mesa (2007). It's about a bunch of people in the New Mexico desert, that have left normal society to live basically off the system. It's a little extreme, in that they are more of anarchists than anything else, but they live a happy life, and their community takes care of itself. It depends on NOTHING the government provides. Perhaps it's not paradise, but they enjoy it and it WORKS for them.

Just food for thought.

they're not anachists.

They have created within their own community, some form of control (read government)

Now it may be much better than ours, I would not doubt it.

But as to them living free?

Not, if they live in America.

At best they are currently unmolested by the governments which surround them.

The back-to-earthers tried this escape plan in the 1970s.

What did they discover?

That sooner or later, some government regulation or some corporate interest (using some government powers) was going to come down on them, and force them to start playing by their rules.

It's a great dream, running away and starting a commune, I'll grant you that.

Sadly, there's people in communes, and seldom can people live in harmony without agreed upon rules of conduct.

RULES of conduct are government.

Absolute freedom for every individual is sadly, not really possible when people live in groups.

 

[Mr. Right]

Do you really want to help the poor?

A sales tax is the way to go.

The Fir Tax has a prebate built in to it.

It's revenue neutral.

It rewards savings. It creates new wealth.

Who wouldn't be for more wealthy people? [liberals maybe?]

 

[editec]

Do you really want to help the poor?

Mostly I want to help the working class, which incidently includes EVERYONE whose income depends on them working. People making $250,000 aren't excluded. Take excellent care of the working class and this nation (the very rich and very poor alike) will be better off.

A sales tax is the way to go.

The Fir Tax has a prebate built in to it.

It's revenue neutral.

It rewards savings. It creates new wealth.

Show me the numbers. I have no affection for the current system. I'm more than open to radical (but workable) solutions.

Who wouldn't be for more wealthy people? [liberals maybe?]

Everybody is for a system, I think, which decreases the deficit, rewards the working people, and makes our tax system comprehensible.

Show me that plan where the middle class, the working classes generally, do well tax wise ..remember people need to eat, and I'd sign onto it.

I've never seen such a plan.

I've seen plans that were so lobsidedly to the benefit of the very rich, at the expense of people who cannot (and do not) pay taxes now, and to the working classes generally, that they were utterly laughable.

If you got one that's better than that, don't assume every liberal would be against it.

 

[Foxfyre]

Do you really want to help the poor?

A sales tax is the way to go.

The Fir Tax has a prebate built in to it.

It's revenue neutral.

It rewards savings. It creates new wealth.

Who wouldn't be for more wealthy people? [liberals maybe?]

Explain how a prebate could be designed so that it didn't become just another huge entitlement?