Doctor tells Obama supporters: Go elsewhere for health care

[Immanuel]

It is a complicated question. Doctors frequently work in groups, sometimes the hospital or group may require the doctor to accept these patients. I think you inadvertly are pointing to the crisis at hand. Doctors are going to look at their new reinbursement rates and rules, then conclude they are going to reitire in large enough numbers to create a real rationing situation.

I don't think Care4All and her posse will allow that to happen. They put shock collars on doctors and chain them in their offices if needed.

I don't know if you knew this or not but those doctors took an oath.

Frankly, I don't think anyone can accurately predict how this will all turn out. Obviously, (VERY OBVIOUSLY), there will be changes along the line. So all the projections really mean nil.

What disturbs me more than anything is that so many people STILL assume incorrectly things that are contained in the final bill, such as claiming that they won't be able to keep their own insurance (among others).

Read what the bill says about insurance companies that are not part of the "exchange" not being able to write new policies. I believe it is section 102. If a company cannot write new policies, it cannot stay in business. My the beauty of the plan!

Being a part of the exchange makes the insurance company puppet of the government and limits our choices. How difficult is it to understand that?

As for the changes... well, President Obama mentioned his ultimate goal was to bring us to a Universal plan within twenty years. Those are the changes we should all be looking forward to. If looking forward to is the proper phrase. Believe me, I'm not looking forward to it.

Immie

 

[Ravi]

If it is true that doctors are not required to take on all patients for instance Medicare/Medicaid patients, then Care's claim that this doctor is unethical for choosing not to take on patients falls apart.

If a doctor is not required to take any patient that comes to his door then her argument falls apart.

How can a doctor fulfill that oath if he does not take on every person that walks through his door even those who tell him they won't be paying the bill?

Immie

No. Refusing certain insurances isn't the same thing as refusing certain people. Not to mention that just because a doctor doesn't accept your insurance doesn't mean he or she won't treat you.

Sorry, you are wrong on that. If Dr. Jones refuses my insurance, he is refusing to provide services to me. Saying, "if you are a medicare patient go elsewhere." is no different than saying, "if you voted for Obama go elsewhere".

Immie

Sure it is. The medicare patient can pay out of pocket.

 

[Care4all]

Doctors can have political views and be against certain bills...but should they take it out on their patients?

Is that professional?

Is that ethical?

Either way - no matter who I voted for, I would take my business elsewhere rather than see a group marginalized for their political beliefs.

He's not taking it out on his patients. The minute you show me that he has turned one single patient away who went through that door or even asked them to sign a document stating they did not support Obama or HCR, I will agree with you. Note: I've been asking people in the other thread to show that for a day and a half now, not one has been able to do so. Edit: whoops, it is this thread I have been asking it in.

He's making a statement to Congress, Obama and the country in general about HCR. Problem is... they aren't listening.

Immie

He VERBALLY took it out on them.....gave them a real tongue lashing....he TOLD THEM TO WALK, walk from his office this very minute, not in 4 years when HCR starts....just because some of his patients did not, does not lessen what he told them....so, I totally disagree with you.

His message was direct to his own patients....read the message, it is CLEARLY to them...not to congress as you falsely state, not to new patients who happen by his office, as others falsely state, but to his very own patients...and not even one on one or by his office manager, but through a very public, nasty, note on his own lobby door....

the guy, is missing some screws.... you call it free speech...I call it like it is....dumb, stupid, high strung, unprofessional, and an unethical move for a Physician....there were so many other means for him to address his thoughts and feeling on the hcr bill than to pull his very own patients in to it in such a nasty, intimidating, fashion.

I could care less if he was republican or democrat or libertarian or a teapartier....

 

[boedicca]

[

Some doctors will NOT accept cash. As soon as you check that box on the visit form, the office will want to know if you have the cash available today or if you expect to be billed personally. Short of an emergency situation, you CAN be turned away. Been there done that. I was pointed in the right direction to a clinic down the street, and that happened long before Medicaid was even on the books.

So what you are saying is that Doctors have the right to turn away patients.

Given that, the and doctor in FL had every right to encourage patients to go elsewhere (although there is still no evidence that he actually refused care to anyone).

 

[toomuchtime_]

I don't think Care4All and her posse will allow that to happen. They put shock collars on doctors and chain them in their offices if needed.

I don't know if you knew this or not but those doctors took an oath.

Frankly, I don't think anyone can accurately predict how this will all turn out. Obviously, (VERY OBVIOUSLY), there will be changes along the line. So all the projections really mean nil.

What disturbs me more than anything is that so many people STILL assume incorrectly things that are contained in the final bill, such as claiming that they won't be able to keep their own insurance (among others).

Read what the bill says about insurance companies that are not part of the "exchange" not being able to write new policies. I believe it is section 102. If a company cannot write new policies, it cannot stay in business. My the beauty of the plan!

Being a part of the exchange makes the insurance company puppet of the government and limits our choices. How difficult is it to understand that?

As for the changes... well, President Obama mentioned his ultimate goal was to bring us to a Universal plan within twenty years. Those are the changes we should all be looking forward to. If looking forward to is the proper phrase. Believe me, I'm not looking forward to it.

Immie

It would be accurate to say that you may temporarily keep your present health insurance but when the bill is fully implemented you will be able to keep your own health insurance only if it fully meets the requirements of a qualified plan under the bill's definition or if you pay a fine of thousands of dollars a year for not having a fully qualified health insurance plan. When Obama says you will be able to keep your present plan if you like without explaining this, he is either lying or has no idea what he is talking about. Both explanations are plausible.

 

[Care4all]

[

Some doctors will NOT accept cash. As soon as you check that box on the visit form, the office will want to know if you have the cash available today or if you expect to be billed personally. Short of an emergency situation, you CAN be turned away. Been there done that. I was pointed in the right direction to a clinic down the street, and that happened long before Medicaid was even on the books.

So what you are saying is that Doctors have the right to turn away patients.

Given that, the and doctor in FL had every right to encourage patients to go elsewhere (although there is still no evidence that he actually refused care to anyone).

The sign was directed towards his EXISTING PATIENTS....there is a protocol to stop seeing an existing patient.....and their health care COMES FIRST for the treating physician so NO, you are not correct on that Boe....and thank God you are not! Physicians SHOULD MEET a certain level of ethical behavior, their professions calls upon it...if they don't accept such, then do NOT become a physician.

 

[boedicca]

Did the doctor refuse to see anyone who tried to make an appointment?

And here is the modern version of the Hippocratic Oath:

I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.


Doctors do not swear to cede their judgment to government bureaucrats. There is an underlying good faith covenant between doctors and society that the latter would not abuse the good will of doctors. ObamaCare violates that good will - and this doctor has every right to "bell the cat".

Doctors already refuse to see patients for a variety of reasons: Medicare, Insurance, Smoking, Pregnancy, Scheduling...this doctor has the right to decide how he wishes to allocate his schedule.

 

[saveliberty]

Doctors can have political views and be against certain bills...but should they take it out on their patients?

Is that professional?

Is that ethical?

Either way - no matter who I voted for, I would take my business elsewhere rather than see a group marginalized for their political beliefs.

He's not taking it out on his patients. The minute you show me that he has turned one single patient away who went through that door or even asked them to sign a document stating they did not support Obama or HCR, I will agree with you. Note: I've been asking people in the other thread to show that for a day and a half now, not one has been able to do so. Edit: whoops, it is this thread I have been asking it in.

He's making a statement to Congress, Obama and the country in general about HCR. Problem is... they aren't listening.

Immie

He VERBALLY took it out on them.....gave them a real tongue lashing....he TOLD THEM TO WALK, walk from his office this very minute, not in 4 years when HCR starts....just because some of his patients did not, does not lessen what he told them....so, I totally disagree with you.

His message was direct to his own patients....read the message, it is CLEARLY to them...not to congress as you falsely state, not to new patients who happen by his office, as others falsely state, but to his very own patients...and not even one on one or by his office manager, but through a very public, nasty, note on his own lobby door....

the guy, is missing some screws.... you call it free speech...I call it like it is....dumb, stupid, high strung, unprofessional, and an unethical move for a Physician....there were so many other means for him to address his thoughts and feeling on the hcr bill than to pull his very own patients in to it in such a nasty, intimidating, fashion.

I could care less if he was republican or democrat or libertarian or a teapartier....

It was a note, he didn't verbally say anything to a patient. You can call it anything you like. He still has is license and hasn't violated a single law or code. While there may have been other ways he could have made his point, you have to admit, he has gotten nationwide exposure to the issue. It is unlikely another method would have done that. Thanks for giving him such a widespread stage.

 

[Ravi]

Turns out the guy is a liar. He was on Fox and "Friends" and claimed the bill was going to cut hospice and that "they" want you to die a slow and painful death.

He's not even worth discussing. He's a jackass, a liar and an unethical boob.

 

[toomuchtime_]

[

Some doctors will NOT accept cash. As soon as you check that box on the visit form, the office will want to know if you have the cash available today or if you expect to be billed personally. Short of an emergency situation, you CAN be turned away. Been there done that. I was pointed in the right direction to a clinic down the street, and that happened long before Medicaid was even on the books.

So what you are saying is that Doctors have the right to turn away patients.

Given that, the and doctor in FL had every right to encourage patients to go elsewhere (although there is still no evidence that he actually refused care to anyone).

The sign was directed towards his EXISTING PATIENTS....there is a protocol to stop seeing an existing patient.....and their health care COMES FIRST for the treating physician so NO, you are not correct on that Boe....and thank God you are not! Physicians SHOULD MEET a certain level of ethical behavior, their professions calls upon it...if they don't accept such, then do NOT become a physician.

You may think it was rude of the doctor to direct this message to his existing patients as well as prospective new patients, but as long as competent care was available to them from other urologists in the area, their health care was not jeopardized and there was nothing unethical about his sign.

Get a grip. Not everything you disapprove of has to be illegal, unethical or immoral.

 

[Immanuel]

Doctors can have political views and be against certain bills...but should they take it out on their patients?

Is that professional?

Is that ethical?

Either way - no matter who I voted for, I would take my business elsewhere rather than see a group marginalized for their political beliefs.

He's not taking it out on his patients. The minute you show me that he has turned one single patient away who went through that door or even asked them to sign a document stating they did not support Obama or HCR, I will agree with you. Note: I've been asking people in the other thread to show that for a day and a half now, not one has been able to do so. Edit: whoops, it is this thread I have been asking it in.

He's making a statement to Congress, Obama and the country in general about HCR. Problem is... they aren't listening.

Immie

He VERBALLY took it out on them.....gave them a real tongue lashing....he TOLD THEM TO WALK, walk from his office this very minute, not in 4 years when HCR starts....just because some of his patients did not, does not lessen what he told them....so, I totally disagree with you.

His message was direct to his own patients....read the message, it is CLEARLY to them...not to congress as you falsely state, not to new patients who happen by his office, as others falsely state, but to his very own patients...and not even one on one or by his office manager, but through a very public, nasty, note on his own lobby door....

the guy, is missing some screws.... you call it free speech...I call it like it is....dumb, stupid, high strung, unprofessional, and an unethical move for a Physician....there were so many other means for him to address his thoughts and feeling on the hcr bill than to pull his very own patients in to it in such a nasty, intimidating, fashion.

I could care less if he was republican or democrat or libertarian or a teapartier....

Like hell, you could care less. If he were a Democrat telling Bush supporters to take a hike, you would be patting him on the back and crucifying anyone that had the guts to claim he was unethical.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

Did the doctor refuse to see anyone who tried to make an appointment?

No, he did not, but that is so far over her head, that you will never get her to understand it.

Immie

 

[Care4all]

So what you are saying is that Doctors have the right to turn away patients.

Given that, the and doctor in FL had every right to encourage patients to go elsewhere (although there is still no evidence that he actually refused care to anyone).

The sign was directed towards his EXISTING PATIENTS....there is a protocol to stop seeing an existing patient.....and their health care COMES FIRST for the treating physician so NO, you are not correct on that Boe....and thank God you are not! Physicians SHOULD MEET a certain level of ethical behavior, their professions calls upon it...if they don't accept such, then do NOT become a physician.

You may think it was rude of the doctor to direct this message to his existing patients as well as prospective new patients, but as long as competent care was available to them from other urologists in the area, their health care was not jeopardized and there was nothing unethical about his sign.

Get a grip. Not everything you disapprove of has to be illegal, unethical or immoral.

It was unethical, it broke his physician's code of ethics....in more than one manner. I can not help that you guys could care less about that and want to make this in to some kind of HCR issue....to me, this is your own problem that you have to deal with...this is about yourselves and how far you are willing to end your own ethical stances in order to support a political position....

This sign was insulting and demeaning and intimidating and downright nasty, to some of his very own patients, that he is suppose to care for...and not just in a physical manner....he essentially spat on them at his door, and sure....if they made it inside, he wiped off his spit when they entered his office, but you know what...you and others can try to fool yourselves all you want in to believing that is not unethical, as long as he saw them in his office then as i said before...go for it but you ain't fooling me in to believing what he did was not unethical...because it was....end of story, UNETHICAL and does NOT meet his Physicians code of ethics.

I do not support this health care bill,

but I also do not support this kind of unethical behavior and verbal abuse from a licensed physician towards his very own patients...he gives good physicians a bad name...I don't see his fellow brother physicians doing what he did across america, they KNOW it would have broken their code of ethics....he didn't.

care

 

[boedicca]

It was unethical, it broke his physician's code of ethics...

How did it break the code of ethics?

(And not the AMA one - only 20% of doctors belong to the AMA).

 

[boedicca]

American Urological Association Code of Ethics:

1. Recognizing that the American Urological Association seeks to exemplify and develop the finest standards of urologic care, I hereby pledge myself, as a condition of membership, to live in strict adherence with its principles and regulations. I pledge myself to pursue the practice of urology with honesty and place the welfare and rights of my patients above all else. I pledge to deal with each patient as I would wish to be dealt with myself. I will render services to humanity with full respect for human dignity, giving full measure of service and devotion, and using my skills to the very best of my abilities. I pledge myself to cooperate in advancing and extending the art and science of urology by my attentive diligent membership in the American Urological Association.

2. I will maintain my qualifications by continued study using the scientific basis of evidence and proof, for medical knowledge must continuously be maintained and improved. All this so that I may select the best alternative for a particular patient's care. I will advance my knowledge and skills, respect my colleagues, seek their counsel when in doubt about my own abilities, and assist my colleagues whenever requested. I will accept that "competence" includes having adequate and proper knowledge to make professionally appropriate and acceptable decisions regarding management of the patient's problems, as well as the ability and skill to perform what is necessary to be done and to ensure that the aftercare is the best available to the patient.

3. I will safeguard the public and the profession from physicians deficient in moral character or professional competence, and will expose to the proper authorities without hesitation any illegal or unethical conduct of fellow members of the profession, or of those who engage in fraud or deception. I will encourage impaired physicians to seek help and to withdraw from those aspects of practice affected by their impairment. I will report to appropriate authorities suspected abuse or neglect of patients, sexual harassment and exploitation, and/or sexual misconduct in patient-physician relationships.

4. Physician-patient confidences will be safeguarded within the constraints of the law.

5. Pre- and post-operative care of my surgical patient and continuing care of my medical patient will be my personal responsibility unless specifically designated to a competent substitute. Any delegation of my services will be to appropriately trained physicians or physician-extenders (PA's or NP's). I will accept income only for medical services actually rendered or supervised by me, and my remuneration will be commensurate with services rendered, regardless of who pays the bill.

6. Any advertising I use will be honest and straightforward, not false, misleading, fraudulent, extravagant, or deceptive. My communications with the public will be accurate, and I will not misrepresent my training, my credentials, my experience, or my ability.When asked or when presenting data that may involve a conflict of interest, I will disclose any personal commercial interests, including any gifts of more than minimal value from commercial firms or significant stock and security investments in commercial firms if there may be any effect on patient care, research, medical decisions, etc. I recognize that failure to do so will invite disciplinary action. I will be truthful, honest, and fair in dealing with patients and colleagues. If I am asked to give expert testimony in the courtroom or outside the court, my testimony will be based on recent and substantive experience in the region in which it is given. I will thoroughly review the medical facts and testify to the content fairly, honestly, and impartially, to the best of my knowledge, ability, and experience, neither condemning practices clearly within accepted standards nor excusing performances
clearly outside such standards.

7. I will conduct my research and perform my academic activities in an honest, fair, truthful, and complete fashion, recognizing my responsibilities to myself, my reputation, my colleagues, my institution, society in general, and to posterity to do so. The dissemination of information is inherent in the pursuit of investigation. Timely and appropriate reporting of results is a responsibility I accept in doing research of any kind. As an author I will verify that I and my associates in the research are familiar with and have adhered to the guidelines for responsible ethical research. I will assure that the use of clinical trials or investigative procedures follow the accepted guidelines and standards as drawn up by local Institutional Review Boards that monitor investigations or by the similar Institutional Review Boards at the National Institutes of Health. Any support by commercial firms for my research will be completely disclosed by all involved in a written statement when reporting such research in any forum whatsoever.

8. I will acknowledge that my commitment to a patient is total once I accept the case, and if I withdraw from providing that care, I will endeavor to assist in obtaining an adequate substitute. I will condemn unnecessary surgery as an extremely serious ethical violation, and will not engage in fee splitting or itinerant surgery---surgery anywhere without appropriate preoperative evaluation or adequate and skilled postoperative care.

9. I will consider informed consent integral to providing appropriate medical or surgical care. I recognize that my patient must be provided with all of the information necessary to consent and to make his own choice of treatment, regardless of my own advice or judgment. The information provided must include known risks and benefits, costs, reasonable expectations and possible complications, available alternative treatments and their cost, as well as the identification of other medical personnel who will be participating directly in the care delivery. Wherever feasible, I will respect my patient's rights and be limited by the scope of my patient's consent.

10. I will obey the law. I will seek to change laws that are contrary to the best interests of the patient. I will accept the profession's self-imposed discipline.

11. I believe my responsibilities to the community and to society are part of a physician's code and that a physician must safeguard the public.

12. I will work constantly to improve this Code of Ethics, thereby improving the care I deliver and its value to society. I recognize that there will be a need from time to time to amend or change some portions of this Code. Emerging issues inevitably will appear involving "Ethics." Those must be judiciously considered in the light of the best interests of the individual, of society, and of the yet-unforeseen consequences of the various alternative actions. Hopefully this Code of Ethics will serve as a frame work for evaluating and deciding on these emerging issues.

These I pledge.


AUA - Code of Ethics

 

[SFC Ollie]

American Urological Association Code of Ethics:



8. I will acknowledge that my commitment to a patient is total once I accept the case, and if I withdraw from providing that care, I will endeavor to assist in obtaining an adequate substitute. I will condemn unnecessary surgery as an extremely serious ethical violation, and will not engage in fee splitting or itinerant surgery---surgery anywhere without appropriate preoperative evaluation or adequate and skilled postoperative care.




AUA - Code of Ethics

Interesting......

 

[Coyote]

He's not taking it out on his patients. The minute you show me that he has turned one single patient away who went through that door or even asked them to sign a document stating they did not support Obama or HCR, I will agree with you. Note: I've been asking people in the other thread to show that for a day and a half now, not one has been able to do so. Edit: whoops, it is this thread I have been asking it in.

He's making a statement to Congress, Obama and the country in general about HCR. Problem is... they aren't listening.

Immie

He VERBALLY took it out on them.....gave them a real tongue lashing....he TOLD THEM TO WALK, walk from his office this very minute, not in 4 years when HCR starts....just because some of his patients did not, does not lessen what he told them....so, I totally disagree with you.

His message was direct to his own patients....read the message, it is CLEARLY to them...not to congress as you falsely state, not to new patients who happen by his office, as others falsely state, but to his very own patients...and not even one on one or by his office manager, but through a very public, nasty, note on his own lobby door....

the guy, is missing some screws.... you call it free speech...I call it like it is....dumb, stupid, high strung, unprofessional, and an unethical move for a Physician....there were so many other means for him to address his thoughts and feeling on the hcr bill than to pull his very own patients in to it in such a nasty, intimidating, fashion.

I could care less if he was republican or democrat or libertarian or a teapartier....

Like hell, you could care less. If he were a Democrat telling Bush supporters to take a hike, you would be patting him on the back and crucifying anyone that had the guts to claim he was unethical.

Immie

I would be incensed at him whatever his political beef - partisan politics does not belong in a doctor-patient relationship.

 

[boedicca]

Indeed.

It's a slippery slope to demand that a doctor be obligated to provide care no matter what conditions the government puts in place. I doubt any of us would wish our careers to be so affected.

 

[Coyote]

American Urological Association Code of Ethics:



8. I will acknowledge that my commitment to a patient is total once I accept the case, and if I withdraw from providing that care, I will endeavor to assist in obtaining an adequate substitute. I will condemn unnecessary surgery as an extremely serious ethical violation, and will not engage in fee splitting or itinerant surgery---surgery anywhere without appropriate preoperative evaluation or adequate and skilled postoperative care.




AUA - Code of Ethics

Interesting......

What this doctor is doing is not technically unethical, but it's kind of the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law isn't it? Do you really think that is the right way to behave as a doctor? Is it really a good thing? Or is his behavior being feted as free speech a part of partisan comradre?

 

[Coyote]

Indeed.

It's a slippery slope to demand that a doctor be obligated to provide care no matter what conditions the government puts in place. I doubt any of us would wish our careers to be so affected.

Certain professions are supposed to be above things like politics, race, etc. If a person is unable to pay for the care, that is a different matter. But doctors are like EMT's, police, emergency service personel. They can't decide the won't treat Republicans, or blacks, or Catholics just because they don't like them.