do the Chinese really have a territorial right to own Taiwan?

[frigidweirdo]

It's the other way round. China is gaining economically, and is now leading BRICS, which together with emerging markets are set to take over the global economy.

The U.S., OTOH, is deep in debt and can only spend continuously, counting on the same BRICS and emerging markets to continue using the dollar as a global reserve currency, which is what they're no longer doing:

De-Dollarization Is Happening at a ‘Stunning’ Pace, Jen Says

The dollar is losing its reserve status at a faster pace than generally accepted as many analysts have failed to account for last year’s wild exchange rate moves, according to Stephen Jen.

www.bloomberg.com

That's why it's not China but the U.S. that's the spoiled brat. Why do you think it has over 800 military installations worldwide and a military budget greater than those of others combined, and using those to attack multiple countries across decades?

The U.S. needs to keep countries in its orbit of power, dependent on it and the dollar. The problem is that more of them are no longer listening, and that includes even allies like Japan, which is buying oil from Russia, various European countries that are buying Russian oil indirectly through India, and even countries like France that are accepting other currencies, like the yuan, for trade.

China is deep in debt too.

China is growing, but the corruption is clearly going to be a major issue in the future. There's only so far you can go without the corruption really pulling you back and even down.

Brics might not be using the dollar, that doesn't mean the dollar isn't the main international currency. People have to have confidence in other currencies. The RMB is a difficult one because the Chinese government controls it too much for it to ever be secure for people outside of China to use.

Who's not listening? The EU, UK, Japan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand are still listening, NATO countries are still listening, as always the other hangers on would only be doing whatever was in their best interests.

 

[ralfy]

I'm not sure I share your view on why the US or China is doing what they're doing.
Sometimes they do it just for the power, the nationalism, and also for resources.

China, like the rest of BRICS and other emerging markets, only have to engage in more mercantilism.

The U.S., OTOH, has had trade deficits since the 1970s, and thus can only spend more by borrowing more. But the latter's only possible if more countries are dependent on the dollar.

 

[ralfy]

China is deep in debt too.

China is growing, but the corruption is clearly going to be a major issue in the future. There's only so far you can go without the corruption really pulling you back and even down.

Brics might not be using the dollar, that doesn't mean the dollar isn't the main international currency. People have to have confidence in other currencies. The RMB is a difficult one because the Chinese government controls it too much for it to ever be secure for people outside of China to use.

Who's not listening? The EU, UK, Japan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand are still listening, NATO countries are still listening, as always the other hangers on would only be doing whatever was in their best interests.

Not as bad as the U.S. and the rest of G7 given late capitalism.

Also, corruption takes place across the board, including in the U.S., with Wall Street controlling both political parties.

The U.S. needs the dollar to remain the main reserve currency, otherwise it can't continue heavy borrowing and spending, which it needs even to pay for its military.

The EU has been buying oil from Russia via India. Japan is now buying oil from Russia directly. Australia and New Zealand have China as a major trading partner, and can't make up their minds concerning any alliance with the U.S. Worse, the U.S. recently angered France after muscling in on a submarine sales deal with Australia, and now France is selling gas to China but no longer using dollars but the yuan. Even countries like Saudi Arabia are now moving away from the petrodollar.

That's why your last point is contradictory: they're listening, which may go against their best interests, but if they follow what is in their best interests, then that may involve not listening.

Which is now taking place.

De-Dollarization Is Happening at a ‘Stunning’ Pace, Jen Says

The dollar is losing its reserve status at a faster pace than generally accepted as many analysts have failed to account for last year’s wild exchange rate moves, according to Stephen Jen.

www.bloomberg.com

So feel free to keep arguing that you will accept or not accept what I share, but keep in mind that reality won't care.

 

[frigidweirdo]

China, like the rest of BRICS and other emerging markets, only have to engage in more mercantilism.

The U.S., OTOH, has had trade deficits since the 1970s, and thus can only spend more by borrowing more. But the latter's only possible if more countries are dependent on the dollar.

Trade deficits are more complicated than you might think.

America’s Trade Deficit Surged in 2022, Nearing $1 Trillion (Published 2023)

The gap between what the United States imports and what it exports hit a record as more foreign goods came into the country.

www.nytimes.com

The US's trade deficit is $1 trillion a year. Does this mean the US is losing $1 trillion a year? Probably not.

The U.S. Trade Deficit: How Much Does It Matter?

President Trump has made reducing the U.S. trade deficit a priority, blaming trade deals like NAFTA, but economists disagree over how policymakers should respond.

www.cfr.org

"
For many economists, however, the trade deficit has been scapegoated, and they argue that the trade deficit is not itself a problem for the U.S. economy. That’s because a larger trade deficit can be the result of a stronger economy, as consumers spend and import more while higher interest rates make foreign investors more eager to place their money in the United States.

CFR Distinguished Fellow Michael Froman, a former U.S. trade representative, pushes back on the Trump administration’s emphasis that “trade deficits mean you lose, and surpluses mean you win.” He says that Trump’s narrow focus on trade in goods, which disregards the services surplus, is particularly unhelpful. “Every legitimate economist states that measuring trade policy by the size of the goods deficit is probably not a passing grade in a basic economics class,” he said at a CFR trade symposium in October 2017."

The economy isn't just goods, it's far more complicated than this, far more complicated for me to understand in a short time. Trying to reduce the deficit isn't necessarily a problem, however a lot of countries have debt, and it all seems to interconnect. China doesn't have a trade deficit, but has huge amounts of debt too...

 

[frigidweirdo]

Not as bad as the U.S. and the rest of G7 given late capitalism.

Also, corruption takes place across the board, including in the U.S., with Wall Street controlling both political parties.

The U.S. needs the dollar to remain the main reserve currency, otherwise it can't continue heavy borrowing and spending, which it needs even to pay for its military.

The EU has been buying oil from Russia via India. Japan is now buying oil from Russia directly. Australia and New Zealand have China as a major trading partner, and can't make up their minds concerning any alliance with the U.S. Worse, the U.S. recently angered France after muscling in on a submarine sales deal with Australia, and now France is selling gas to China but no longer using dollars but the yuan. Even countries like Saudi Arabia are now moving away from the petrodollar.

That's why your last point is contradictory: they're listening, which may go against their best interests, but if they follow what is in their best interests, then that may involve not listening.

Which is now taking place.

De-Dollarization Is Happening at a ‘Stunning’ Pace, Jen Says

The dollar is losing its reserve status at a faster pace than generally accepted as many analysts have failed to account for last year’s wild exchange rate moves, according to Stephen Jen.

www.bloomberg.com

So feel free to keep arguing that you will accept or not accept what I share, but keep in mind that reality won't care.

Well, yes, corruption happens in the US. Sometimes it's even legitimized. In China, however, it's much worse.
How rich do you think Chinese politicians are? The top lot are all billionaires, on a salary of like $2,000 a month.

Every politician, more or less, has broken the law, and does so regularly. Why? Because it's expected. But then if you fall out of favor, wham, you're being done for corruption. It's an easy way to control people, tell them if they don't do as they're told, they're going to spend the rest of their life in prison or be executed.

Top jobs are bought. This is financed through bribery.

But the thing is, the US is falling because of its corruption, and it's not as bad as China's.... China's rise is also part of its inevitable fall... unless they can change things.

Contradictory is everywhere. Countries like Germany and France are countries that will be contradictory. They'll be on the side of the US, but they'll resent the US somewhat. But they'll also be scared of China, but will work with China anyway.

Why? Because these countries are not run by one person, they run by many people, different views come with different leaders, the leaders are more focused on winning their own elections rather than on the future they'll not be around to suffer.

 

[ralfy]

Trade deficits are more complicated than you might think.

America’s Trade Deficit Surged in 2022, Nearing $1 Trillion (Published 2023)

The gap between what the United States imports and what it exports hit a record as more foreign goods came into the country.

www.nytimes.com

The US's trade deficit is $1 trillion a year. Does this mean the US is losing $1 trillion a year? Probably not.

The U.S. Trade Deficit: How Much Does It Matter?

President Trump has made reducing the U.S. trade deficit a priority, blaming trade deals like NAFTA, but economists disagree over how policymakers should respond.

www.cfr.org

"
For many economists, however, the trade deficit has been scapegoated, and they argue that the trade deficit is not itself a problem for the U.S. economy. That’s because a larger trade deficit can be the result of a stronger economy, as consumers spend and import more while higher interest rates make foreign investors more eager to place their money in the United States.

CFR Distinguished Fellow Michael Froman, a former U.S. trade representative, pushes back on the Trump administration’s emphasis that “trade deficits mean you lose, and surpluses mean you win.” He says that Trump’s narrow focus on trade in goods, which disregards the services surplus, is particularly unhelpful. “Every legitimate economist states that measuring trade policy by the size of the goods deficit is probably not a passing grade in a basic economics class,” he said at a CFR trade symposium in October 2017."

The economy isn't just goods, it's far more complicated than this, far more complicated for me to understand in a short time. Trying to reduce the deficit isn't necessarily a problem, however a lot of countries have debt, and it all seems to interconnect. China doesn't have a trade deficit, but has huge amounts of debt too...

My point isn't that the country is losing a trillion dollars a year or that the economy consists essentially of goods. Rather, it has to take on increasing about of debt in order to forestall the effects of chronic trade deficits. Also, those deficits and debts are in place given the Triffin dilemma.

 

[ralfy]

Well, yes, corruption happens in the US. Sometimes it's even legitimized. In China, however, it's much worse.
How rich do you think Chinese politicians are? The top lot are all billionaires, on a salary of like $2,000 a month.

Every politician, more or less, has broken the law, and does so regularly. Why? Because it's expected. But then if you fall out of favor, wham, you're being done for corruption. It's an easy way to control people, tell them if they don't do as they're told, they're going to spend the rest of their life in prison or be executed.

Top jobs are bought. This is financed through bribery.

But the thing is, the US is falling because of its corruption, and it's not as bad as China's.... China's rise is also part of its inevitable fall... unless they can change things.

Contradictory is everywhere. Countries like Germany and France are countries that will be contradictory. They'll be on the side of the US, but they'll resent the US somewhat. But they'll also be scared of China, but will work with China anyway.

Why? Because these countries are not run by one person, they run by many people, different views come with different leaders, the leaders are more focused on winning their own elections rather than on the future they'll not be around to suffer.

Reminds me of a Chinese expert interviewed by Pilger in The Coming War on China. When asked to explain briefly the difference between China and the U.S., and said that China is controlled by the Communist Party while the U.S. is controlled by Wall Street.

 

[themirrorthief]

Why does China want it NOW? After about 70 years of freedom from China, WHY does China bother?

1. Taiwan is still one of the largest manufacturing countries on the planet.
2. It sticks in Jinpings craw that China isn't the slum-ghetto factory location for the whole planet.
3. Political agendas.

china owns most of the usa so why not

 

[frigidweirdo]

My point isn't that the country is losing a trillion dollars a year or that the economy consists essentially of goods. Rather, it has to take on increasing about of debt in order to forestall the effects of chronic trade deficits. Also, those deficits and debts are in place given the Triffin dilemma.

Everything about capitalism seems to be on a knife edge, one thing goes wrong and it sets off the house of cards falling.

China seems to want to change that, moving more towards "socialism with Chinese characteristics", the problem is that the way the Chinese govt works, it'll just end up either in disaster or going back to another DengXiaoPing having to reform everything and go back to Capitalism.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Reminds me of a Chinese expert interviewed by Pilger in The Coming War on China. When asked to explain briefly the difference between China and the U.S., and said that China is controlled by the Communist Party while the U.S. is controlled by Wall Street.

The US is controlled by more than just Wall Street. That's the difference. One person controls China, but multiple interests control the US. The Koch brothers (only one of the two is still alive) have had a big impact, Soros too, plus others, mostly keeping themselves behind the scenes.

 

[gtopa1]

i've changed my thinking on this issue tonight.

i used to think, that because the Island of Taiwan is so close to China, and the fact that the Taiwanese were dissidents against the Chinese Communist Party back in WW2, that China "had every right to claim that territory".

but tonight, 2 thoughts popped into my mind :
* the Taiwanese are also just Humans, and their hearts are Democratic. they wanted to keep living near China after WW2, so they retreated onto that Island and joined the Western alliance of Democratic countries.
* the Taiwanese form no military threat against China whatsoever, not as far as i can recall at least. prove me wrong, Chinese, if you want me to switch sides on this important issue again - your South China Sea naval fleet (and more) is potentially at stake here.

of course, Ukraine is on the international agenda this week, so i'll just patiently await the Chinese response to these arguments i raise here.

The Chinese Government relocated to Taiwan after being ousted by foreign backed Communists. The Communists NEVER had legitimacy.

Hence Taiwan has the rightful Government of China.

Greg

 

[peacefan]

The Chinese Government relocated to Taiwan after being ousted by foreign backed Communists. The Communists NEVER had legitimacy.

Hence Taiwan has the rightful Government of China.

Greg

wrong. there was a civil war, with mainland China ending up Communist.
just accept that fact already.

 

[Rogue AI]

China's claim to Taiwan is validated by the fact the West did not recognize the CCP for decades nor did they proclaim Taiwan as an independent and sovereign state.

 

[peacefan]

China's claim to Taiwan is validated by the fact the West did not recognize the CCP for decades nor did they proclaim Taiwan as an independent and sovereign state.

and there are also plenty of reasons as to why China's claim to Taiwan should not be honored.
for instance the fact that the CCP drove the Taiwanese onto the Island of Taiwan after WW2.

 

[Rogue AI]

peacefan Nonsense, the West held out hope of a democratic revolution on the mainland in which the Taiwanese would take the reigns. That never happened. You can't have it both ways.

 

[gtopa1]

wrong. there was a civil war, with mainland China ending up Communist.
just accept that fact already.

Rubbish. Stalin supported Mao. Read your damned History!!! You also want me to "accept" the CCCP?? NEVER.....and 1990 proved me correct. There is NEVER a reason to accept COMMUNISM!!!!

Greg

 

[fncceo]

Taiwan is still one of the largest manufacturing countries on the planet.

In fact, China is already number one, with nearly 30% of all manufacturing globally being done in China. Taiwan isn't even in the Top 10 with less than 1% of global manufacturing.

Taiwan is the largest manufacturer of high end processors (7 and 10 nm) but Israel and the USA combined manufacture more of those than Taiwan.

I do believe, China doesn't exactly see this as a financial advantage. They will lose more trying to take back Taiwan than they would ever gain by the takeover.

For China, this is just part of a VERY long-term goal to take back all of it's former territories, they have succeeded peacefully with Hong Kong and Macau. Putting Taiwan back into China would, so to speak, put the family back together.

 

[peacefan]

Rubbish. Stalin supported Mao. Read your damned History!!! You also want me to "accept" the CCCP?? NEVER.....and 1990 proved me correct. There is NEVER a reason to accept COMMUNISM!!!!

Greg

oh you want the US to lead the world eh?
WELL THE REST OF THE WORLD WON'T TAKE THAT.

 

[fncceo]

oh you want the US to lead the world eh?
WELL THE REST OF THE WORLD WON'T TAKE THAT.

Let China run things for a few decades... the rest of the world will beg us to come back ... and we will say ...

 

[gtopa1]

oh you want the US to lead the world eh?
WELL THE REST OF THE WORLD WON'T TAKE THAT.

Your logic is amiss. What I am saying is that after the Long March Mao was POWERLESS until they were able to reorganise away from the Kuomintang who were busy fighting the Japanese. The CCCP never left using Mao as a "useful idiot" in charge. The death of Lin Piao was the end of Soviet "control" and Mao became the lunatic we loathe and despise today. Then after he did a Biden and royally fucked up China it took his downfall and "untimely" death to right the very stuffed up Chinese Economy under Deng.