Did Millennials Not Learn About Socialism?

[Agit8r]

They have a positive view of it because social democracy is what the rest of the "Free World" has.

Not really. Socialism isn't democratic. State ownership of you isn't freedom and without freedom, there is no democracy. The European countries are republics but liberals lie and call it social to soft sell it to the unwitting masses. It's an incremental step to the end game where people cease being citizens and become subjects.

Are the people of Canada free or not?

 

[Boss]

These two don't understand that socialism resulted from the excesses and abuses of capitalism.

Actually, it didn't. It rose up from feudalism and tyranny of kings. There was no such thing as free market capitalism where Socialism was born.

You see, across Europe and Asia, people lived under kings, they were subjects... the king owned the land and called all the shots. Socialism came along and promised a brighter future for the people. This is why all the modern day arguments for Socialism rely on the notion that the people are hopelessly trapped and have no opportunity... because that is how Socialism cut it's teeth... being sold as an opportunity where none existed before.

But in our system, the poorest of the poor have the opportunity to become as wealthy as they desire through free market capitalism. And unlike Socialism, it doesn't rely on the benevolence of a central authority or become corrupted by a ruling class.

 

[Boss]

Hey boss, did capitalism fail those workers who lost jobs, homes and savings, through no fault of their own, during the last economic disaster?

And did capitalism fail them again because they haven't been able to recover what they lost?

I don't know... did Socialism fail 70 million people who were killed by Stalin or 50 million who were killed by Mao? We don't know, we can't ask them because they're dead.

People lose jobs, homes and savings because you try to control capitalism with government interventions instead of allowing market forces to prevail. If you'd leave the system alone it would self correct and a minimal number of people would ever lose anything at all. But yeah... in Utopian Socialism no one ever loses a thing... they never have anything to lose but they don't lose what they never have.

 

[Boss]

Almost every country in Europe would be considered social democracies along with Japan. You're a twit.

Again... North Korea considers itself a Democratic Republic. China considers itself The People's Republic. If you want to, you can call a ham sandwich "democracy" but that doesn't make it one.

If you like Socialist Europe.. or Cuba... or Venezuela... you should go and live there! For myself, I prefer a Constitutional republic with a vibrant free market and robust free enterprise. I like having the option of attaining all the wealth my heart desires. I like having the option to buy nicer clothes, a nicer car, a bigger house, more property. I don't want my government lording over me and making my decisions for me. I can handle what I need personally better than they can.

 

[Boss]

Dictatorships are not democracies. North Korea is a dictatorship, no matter what they call themselves. You just make yourself look stupid when you try to assert that North Korea is a democracy. Go back to school for God's sake.

Well that's the point I am making that you're missing. You run around promoting "social democracy" or "democratic socialism" like the attachment of the word "democracy" somehow makes the Socialism better and more appealing.... and that's what the North Koreans do as well.

I'm not trying to "assert" anything here... go look it up for yourself if you don't believe me... North Korea calls itself the Democratic Republic of North Korea. China calls itself The People's Republic of China. Socialism has always sold itself as representing the people, the workers, the underclass. It has consistently failed to deliver on it's promises and no new incarnation is going to change it because it's a fundamentally flawed ideology.

 

[Contumacious]

A recent Pugh Research survey showed that 47% of Millennials had positive views on Socialism. It made me wonder, when did we stop teaching World History and specifically, about the horrors of Socialism in school? Must have been since I graduated in the late 70s, because when I went to school, we devoted a great deal of time in studying and being tested rigorously on Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and others. The People's Revolution... The Bolsheviks... The Killing Fields... Any of that ringing any bells to Millennials? As it stands, the Death Toll for Socialism worldwide stands at around 150 million, conservatively speaking. And that's for deaths that we know about... there are probably that many more that we will never know about. It is a dangerous and devastating political ideology that you need to be aware of and pay attention to what happens, how it works, what the inhuman and horrific results have been.

Oh, I know... YOU favor a different KIND of Socialism! It's not your Grandaddy's Socialism! But guess what? It's ALWAYS a different kind! Every incarnation of Socialism comes repackaged in a "new and improved" version that will certainly work THIS time! Mao recreated Stalinist Socialism, Pol Pot recreated Maoism. There is always a "better" version of Socialism... that's because there has to be... it keeps failing.

You see, the thing is... I don't really think Millennials have thought this through. The things that you hold near and dear... the grande mocha frappuccino at Starbucks... the latest version of the iPhone or music device... all those things go bye-bye in a Socialist system, you don't have time for that anyway, you have to remain productive. Things like going to the movies or concerts... that becomes a once a year kinda thing, maybe... if you work really hard and save for it. In fact, the coming and going pretty much has to stop altogether because you can't afford it anymore.

Art, music, movies... all things creative that you have known and loved... all goes away because there is no room for creativity and thinking anymore, you must remain committed to becoming a more productive worker. You don't believe me? Well, in Russia, if you look at the art and buildings from their Imperial era, (pre-socialist)... they were colorful and very artistically creative... look at art and buildings following the revolution which brought Socialism and it turns to brown dull colors, uninspired architecture. Creativity is killed for the Greater Good, you see? You'll have the same modest little shoe box home like everyone else and you can't really "own" property anymore... you can't afford to buy it. However, it will always seem as though the Socialist ruling class is able to afford these things, but they are making all this wonderful Socialist Utopia possible, so it's to be expected, right?

The really bad thing is whenever you discover this Socialism isn't really all that it's cracked up to be.... think of Windows Vista... The thing is, you can't revert to previous version... there is nothing there anymore. You have to destroy the free market capitalist system in order to actually implement this wonderful new version of socialism... so there's that. You're just stuck with it until enough people are willing to shed blood and start a revolution. That probably isn't going to be the Millennial generation but I assume at least a few of you will have children and presumably they'll produce grandchildren. At some point, that will be the only way to get back to what we once had... a vibrant free market, free enterprise, capitalist system.

A system, incidentally, which has proven successful everywhere it has been tried. It has produced more millionaires and billionaires than any system ever devised by man. We've been around 247 years, give or take... China has us beat by a few thousand years. We're relative babies in terms of nations.... yet we're the #1 World Superpower. That is the result of our system which is precious and unique... and most importantly, IS NOT SOCIALISM!

Okay, to the Granola Liberals.... You know how you've been instructed to argue that if you carry a Social Security card you're literally a "card-carrying socialist!"? You're being intentionally misled... and again, I have to wonder when we stopped teaching American History.... Constitutionally-enumerated powers of Congress? Promote the General Welfare? Any of that ringing any bells, Millennials? These things like Social Security and Roads/Bridges, etc... they all fall under Constitutionally-enumerated powers of the government that are built into our NON-Socialist system. They are NOT Socialism. There might be some similarities as they are often done as a "collective" and it seems this lines up with Socialism but it's not Socialism at all. There are a set of things you can find in Article I Section 8 of the US Constitution which grant government the powers to handle certain aspects of government on behalf of everyone. It's not because government can do it more efficiently or even "better" in all cases, but the framers realized there were certain things the free market capitalist system couldn't do effectively because the incentives were all wrong. A free market capitalist military? What, we're gonna hire mercenaries? So there are these certain set of things the framers realized the government needed the power to handle and those are the Enumerated Powers. It's NOT Socialism.

Our founding fathers actually have the first opportunity of any newly-founded governing body to consider Socialism as the general ideas were already being talked about across the pond. But these people, as you recall, were radicals of their time... they didn't want anything like Socialism, it was moving in the opposite direction and away from what they wanted to do here. They didn't want large centralized Federal power lording over the people. They wanted a society that ensured personal liberty above all else and enabled individuals the freedom to pursue their ambitions and desires through free enterprise, free market economy. They WANTED people to aspire to be wealthy beyond their wildest dreams and buy expensive homes. They WANTED businesses to thrive and prosper. And guess what? It worked out brilliantly... we became the undisputed World Leaders... in pretty much everything.

As we've watched in horror as one incarnation of Socialism after another has failed in shocking fashion. Genocide. War. Starvation. Complete collapse of civilization and death. As the policies fail the ruling class attempts to hold on to their power and that's when things really start becoming very ugly. Corruption is widespread and rampant, totalitarian tyranny is inevitable. It's all documented in the history books that we're apparently not using anymore in schools.

And hey, maybe it's not all the Millennial's fault... maybe it's the parents as well... The other day, a friend of mine who has a son that is a Millennial, was reviewing his options for after high school... His parent was steering him toward going to technical school instead of pursuing an academic degree. Buckle down, learn a good trade and be a good little Socialist worker. Don't dream big... don't worry your little head about being wealthy or successful... we know you're not that smart... besides, you're wanting to do that "music career" thing and live in a tiny house, right?

This was predicted back in 1943

Every politically controlled educational system will inculcate the doctrine of state supremacy sooner or later. . . . Once that doctrine has been accepted, it becomes an almost superhuman task to break the stranglehold of the political power over the life of the citizen. It has had his body, property and mind in its clutches from infancy. An octopus would sooner release its prey.

A tax-supported, compulsory educational system is the complete model of the totalitarian state.

–Isabel Paterson, The God of the Machine (1943)

 

[Interpol]

The fact is most people around the world look favorably on at least some measures of socialism to serve as a balance to capitalism and corporatism.

I find too many Americans--particularly online--reveal a total confusion about what it is. Socialism is not fascism. My Canadian friends and family, even the conservatives of the bunch, do not associate socialism with fascism. They associate it more with "we the people". Even many of the complainers of single-payer healthcare (single-payer is routinely favored by some 80% of Canadians) admit it is a much simpler healthcare payment delivery system by far over what the U.S. has. Their view is that "we the people" have control over healthcare costs by having gov't set and enforce affordable rates. In the end, the same outcomes as in America but with less bureaucracy and at half the cost.

On that matter, socialism is a better business practice for the people.

The dirty little secret in America is that it's older Americans, the most prone to being confused about socialism, who depend on socialist programs. Practically everyone has a relative or a friend in the military. Corporations get massive contracts, but it's the biggest social welfare program on the planet. Social Security and Medicare are programs that old, white voters and every other older voter will never let the gov't privatize because they know it's the only thing keeping them alive due to annual incomes of under $20,000.

Americans rely on socialism, even the cranky ones who willfully like to confuse it with fascism, which is not at all the same thing.

 

[Super_Lantern]

Millennials were just let down by a corrupt "free market" controlled by the 1%. Not shocking that we aren't terrified of socialism. The approach that is supposed to be the good one hasn't worked for decades

 

[Contumacious]

Millennials were just let down by a corrupt "free market" controlled by the 1%. Not shocking that we aren't terrified of socialism. The approach that is supposed to be the good one hasn't worked for decades

Excuse me dingle berry

Make up your mind - the market is either free or controlled

If it is controlled then aim your criticism at the fascists or the socialists - free marketeers do NOT use controls


.

 

[Boss]

Millennials were just let down by a corrupt "free market" controlled by the 1%. Not shocking that we aren't terrified of socialism. The approach that is supposed to be the good one hasn't worked for decades

Well I am sorry to be the one having to break this fact to you but every system in every country that has ever existed has always had and will always have a Top 1% who controls most of the wealth. There is no system without a Top 1% or a Bottom 99%.

In our system, however, we have free enterprise and free market capitalism which is available to all. So the bottom 1% can one day be the top 1% through their talents, skills and hard work. In your Socialist system, the Top 1% are the ruling class elite who control all the political power and speech as well as all the wealth... you have no opportunity to attain it unless you're lucky enough to be born into the ruling class.

In our system, we have the individual liberty to protest and boycott capitalists who exploit us or become overly-greedy. In the Socialist system, the capitalists are cronies of the ruling class and you have to live with them because the government calls the shots, you've given up your liberty.

 

[Super_Lantern]

Millennials were just let down by a corrupt "free market" controlled by the 1%. Not shocking that we aren't terrified of socialism. The approach that is supposed to be the good one hasn't worked for decades

Excuse me dingle berry

Make up your mind - the market is either free or controlled

If it is controlled then aim your criticism at the fascists or the socialists - free marketeers do NOT use controls


.

The market isn't free. We are slaves to the 1%. Socialism isn't a horrible idea in response to the status quo

Millennials were just let down by a corrupt "free market" controlled by the 1%. Not shocking that we aren't terrified of socialism. The approach that is supposed to be the good one hasn't worked for decades

Well I am sorry to be the one having to break this fact to you but every system in every country that has ever existed has always had and will always have a Top 1% who controls most of the wealth. There is no system without a Top 1% or a Bottom 99%.

In our system, however, we have free enterprise and free market capitalism which is available to all. So the bottom 1% can one day be the top 1% through their talents, skills and hard work. In your Socialist system, the Top 1% are the ruling class elite who control all the political power and speech as well as all the wealth... you have no opportunity to attain it unless you're lucky enough to be born into the ruling class.

In our system, we have the individual liberty to protest and boycott capitalists who exploit us or become overly-greedy. In the Socialist system, the capitalists are cronies of the ruling class and you have to live with them because the government calls the shots, you've given up your liberty.

I appreciate your thoughts and don't necessarily disagree with all of what you're saying

 

[boilermaker55]

The millennials are living in a plutocracy and know the evils of it so they want change.

 

[BluesLegend]

Idiot,

Did you not learn about social democracy and the reality that the US has had public schools for the past 100 years, funded science institutions since the founding(naval research lab) and have had a central bank very early in our history. Now go to somalia and be a savage!

Every civilized nation on earth has a public sector.

You won't have any of that at the rate we are piling up trillions of dollars of debt, then your ass will be in a sling Mr.

 

[Contumacious]

Millennials were just let down by a corrupt "free market" controlled by the 1%. Not shocking that we aren't terrified of socialism. The approach that is supposed to be the good one hasn't worked for decades

Excuse me dingle berry

Make up your mind - the market is either free or controlled

If it is controlled then aim your criticism at the fascists or the socialists - free marketeers do NOT use controls


.

The market isn't free. We are slaves to the 1%. Socialism isn't a horrible idea in response to the status quo

Millennials were just let down by a corrupt "free market" controlled by the 1%. Not shocking that we aren't terrified of socialism. The approach that is supposed to be the good one hasn't worked for decades

Well I am sorry to be the one having to break this fact to you but every system in every country that has ever existed has always had and will always have a Top 1% who controls most of the wealth. There is no system without a Top 1% or a Bottom 99%.

In our system, however, we have free enterprise and free market capitalism which is available to all. So the bottom 1% can one day be the top 1% through their talents, skills and hard work. In your Socialist system, the Top 1% are the ruling class elite who control all the political power and speech as well as all the wealth... you have no opportunity to attain it unless you're lucky enough to be born into the ruling class.

In our system, we have the individual liberty to protest and boycott capitalists who exploit us or become overly-greedy. In the Socialist system, the capitalists are cronies of the ruling class and you have to live with them because the government calls the shots, you've given up your liberty.

I appreciate your thoughts and don't necessarily disagree with all of what you're saying

If the market isn't free then the fascists are responsible

Do NOT vote for:

Trump
Hillary
Sanders
Rubio
Cruz

Vote

Libertarian


Gary Johnson

.

 

[Boss]

The market isn't free. We are slaves to the 1%. Socialism isn't a horrible idea in response to the status quo

But you're really NOT slaves to the 1% in this country.... that's the beauty of free enterprise. This is simply the meme you must promote because that's the light which makes Socialism look it's best. Indeed, it isn't a horrible idea when you believe the meme is true. That's how it was promoted across Europe and Asia to the masses who were hopelessly mired in feudal systems under kings and rulers.

The problem is, when you try and implement Socialism across a diverse and large population, it stifles human endeavor and creativity. It kills dreams and hope. There is no more incentive for success and people slump into a dismal haze of despair and remorse. At the top, corruption sets in as the authoritarian government tries to find ways to motivate the masses and keep productivity going in order to keep the economic engine primed... when that fails, they start lining up the trouble makers in front of open ditches and put some lead in their heads.

This is all well-documented in World History.

 

[Contumacious]

The market isn't free. We are slaves to the 1%. Socialism isn't a horrible idea in response to the status quo

But you're really NOT slaves to the 1% in this country.... that's the beauty of free enterprise. This is simply the meme you must promote because that's the light which makes Socialism look it's best. Indeed, it isn't a horrible idea when you believe the meme is true. That's how it was promoted across Europe and Asia to the masses who were hopelessly mired in feudal systems under kings and rulers.

The problem is, when you try and implement Socialism across a diverse and large population, it stifles human endeavor and creativity. It kills dreams and hope. There is no more incentive for success and people slump into a dismal haze of despair and remorse. At the top, corruption sets in as the authoritarian government tries to find ways to motivate the masses and keep productivity going in order to keep the economic engine primed... when that fails, they start lining up the trouble makers in front of open ditches and put some lead in their heads.

This is all well-documented in World History.

You sound like a CONservative who for some reason want to perpetrate the FRAUD that we have a FREE market,

Among the agencies regulating the market place are, FTC, FDA, SEC, FCC, .....>.ad nauseam

So Shut the fuck up.


.

 

[Boss]

You sound like a CONservative who for some reason want to perpetrate the FRAUD that we have a FREE market,

Among the agencies regulating the market place are, FTC, FDA, SEC, FCC, .....>.ad nauseam

So Shut the fuck up.

Well, we DO have a free market... or at least, to the extent it hasn't been co-opted by crony corporatists and socialists.

When you buy into the rhetoric that we don't really have a free market, you actually enable the argument forwarding Socialism because that is what Socialism was built to address.

I just started a business from scratch. I started with about $500 in working capital. I made some barter deals, traded some things here and there, bought two old buildings in a dried up little ghost town about a mile from the interstate... got them at a good price... popped in some kitchen equipment I picked up on barter... started serving Old World European cuisine. I have a staff of 6 plus myself and we do about $2k per day in business.

All along the way, people told me I was crazy, that it would never fly. We're getting great reviews and drawing in people from a 50 mile radius and more. I've already had an offer on the place of $175k and I am thinking about selling. Not bad results for a $500 investment and about 6 months of work.

95% of success is about Attitude. Most people are simply afraid of failing.

 

[Contumacious]

You sound like a CONservative who for some reason want to perpetrate the FRAUD that we have a FREE market,

Among the agencies regulating the market place are, FTC, FDA, SEC, FCC, .....>.ad nauseam

So Shut the fuck up.

Well, we DO have a free market... or at least, to the extent it hasn't been co-opted by crony corporatists and socialists.

When you buy into the rhetoric that we don't really have a free market, you actually enable the argument forwarding Socialism because that is what Socialism was built to address.

I just started a business from scratch. I started with about $500 in working capital. I made some barter deals, traded some things here and there, bought two old buildings in a dried up little ghost town about a mile from the interstate... got them at a good price... popped in some kitchen equipment I picked up on barter... started serving Old World European cuisine. I have a staff of 6 plus myself and we do about $2k per day in business.

All along the way, people told me I was crazy, that it would never fly. We're getting great reviews and drawing in people from a 50 mile radius and more. I've already had an offer on the place of $175k and I am thinking about selling. Not bad results for a $500 investment and about 6 months of work.

95% of success is about Attitude. Most people are simply afraid of failing.

Well, we DO have a free market... or at least, to the extent it hasn't been co-opted by crony corporatists and socialists.

Again, since the feds decided to intervene in the market place by regulating banking and credit in 1913 , we have had fascism.

Plain and simple.

Over and out

 

[Searcher44]

(When did they stop teaching about
the horrors of Socialism in school? Must have been since I graduated in the late 70s, because when I went to school, we devoted a great deal of time in studying and being tested rigorously on Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and others.

How did they manage to brainwash you into believing the two terms "communism", and "socialism" are synonymic and societies that are communistic would have the same economic, cultural and government/citizen relationship as a society that integrated some socialistic ideas in it's economy? In fact the first observation a rational, curious student of government would make is that Communism is essentially a political system and Socialism an economic one. Was that school you attended some private right wing madrassa equivalent institution not especially concerned with producing well educated students with critical thinking skills but who's syllabus was designed to churn out right wing ideologues?

As it stands, the Death Toll for Socialism worldwide stands at around 150 million

Again false equivalency, the old "repeat a lie often enough...." tactic.

Socialism comes repackaged in a "new and improved" version that will certainly work THIS time! Mao recreated Stalinist Socialism, Pol Pot recreated Maoism. There is always a "better" version of Socialism

That school of yours was amazingly effective at indoctrinating you at least in the art of peddling an inverted image of reality as a camera obscura inverts the rays of light.

Things like going to the movies or concerts... that becomes a once a year kinda thing, maybe... if you work really hard and save for it. In fact, the coming and going pretty much has to stop altogether because you can't afford it anymore.

That assertion is such a laughable "fear socialism" bullet point it's not worth comment. Surely you could have come up with a scarier example of socialism's evil consequences than that.

Okay, to the Granola Liberals.... You know how you've been instructed to argue that if you carry a Social Security card you're literally a "card-carrying socialist!"? You're being intentionally misled... and again, I have to wonder when we stopped teaching American History.... Constitutionally-enumerated powers of Congress? Promote the General Welfare? Any of that ringing any bells, Millennials? These things like Social Security and Roads/Bridges, etc... they all fall under Constitutionally-enumerated powers of the government that are built into our NON-Socialist system

The elasticity granted Congress in clause 18 of section 8..." To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof." leaves Congress broad latitude in enacting programs, for example, to "Promote the General Welfare", especially when such constitutional terms themselves are open to an individual's subjective interpretation. The transparent attempt to define your interpretations of what legitimately falls under congress's purview as universal and obvious and "NON-socialist" is, as you might put it, "cute", but completely unpersuasive and an obvious attempt at disinformation.

There might be some similarities as they are often done as a "collective" and it seems this lines up with Socialism but it's not Socialism at all.

Your attempt to disseminate and entrench "Boss's Theory of What Is and What Isn't" hasn't convinced even a moderately intelligent person yet and a pathetically empty interjection of what "seems to be but isn't" , completely devoid of evidence, will only resonate with bone-headed Boss fanboys who instinctually lap up your invented moronic observations as if they were derived from the real world.

They wanted a society that ensured personal liberty above all else and enabled individuals the freedom to pursue their ambitions and desires through free enterprise, free market economy

Ahhh....the final insult to the reader's intelligence. The glorification of the elite American "Founders", the equivalent of European aristocrats of the day, as paragons of virtue "who wanted to ensure personal liberty above all else". Yeah they did if you were a wealthy property owner, especially a wealthy Plantation owner whose wealth accumulation relied solely on generations of slave's forced labor and denying millions of human beings even the recognition of being human. Let's at least attempt some historical accuracy here, we all revere the U.S. Constitution as probably the greatest document advancing the potential of achieving liberty and justice in an egalitarian society based on everybody having the same value before the law and equal voice if desired in deciding who writes those laws. So you have a deeply flawed document thats beauty and genius derives from its inherent potential to lead to the evolution of a superior State and not in it's immediate effect on the nation at hand. Hopefully that potential is inevitable. And contrary to your simplistic advance of a purely "free enterprise, free market economy" as the vehicle to take American society to "a more perfect Union", the reigning in of the inevitable consequences of "free market" capitalism is as often as not an on-going distraction from progress. You know all these examples and many many more;

1)Exploitation of labor forced to work in unsafe, unhealthy environments like mines which were death traps you had to work because you had to eat.

2)Children forced to work in horrendous conditions 12 hrs+ per day, sometimes 7 days a week.

3)Women working in sweatshops no better than the ones in Asia where they had to install nets to catch the hopeless attempting suicide as the only escape from hopelessness.

4)Corporations belching poisons into the air and rivers and streams.
Tobacco Executives perjuring themselves to Congress for decades about the harmful and addictive properties of tobacco and not one day in jail for anyone. Same goes for car company CEO's who lied about the harmful effects of Lead and numerous other subjects. And the widespread fraud of "Big Banks too Big to fail" without prosecution. Corporations with the rights of people but not the threat of consequence the man in the street faces.

Any paeanistic exaltation of Capitalism falls on deaf ears for the want of honesty in acknowledging the historic faults and crimes committed in its name. And any broad stroke condemnation of Socialism fails for the want of honesty in mentioning some of the beneficial effects achieved through implementation in varying degrees historically in many Countries.

 

[Boss]

Again, since the feds decided to intervene in the market place by regulating banking and credit in 1913 , we have had fascism.

Plain and simple.

Well, no... because if we had a fascist system I couldn't have opened my restaurant. The government would have said... We don't need a restaurant there and therefore, we prohibit you opening one.

Now, I can't argue that capitalism wouldn't do better if the government didn't intervene. I think it would. But government intervention into capitalism and markets is not the fault of capitalism or free markets.