Democratic-Socialism is still socialism.

bjoh249

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May 5, 2017
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This is for the economic illiterates on here who think Democratic-Socialism is not the same thing as socialism. This is also for those who keep touting Canada and the Nordic countries as examples of socialism working when these countries really are not socialist.

Democratic socialism - Wikipedia


"Democratic socialism is a political ideology advocating a democratic political system alongside a SOCIALIST ECONOMIC SYSTEM, involving a combination of political democracy with SOCIAL OWNERSHIP OF THE MEANS OF PRODUCTION.

"Democratic socialism REJECTS the social democratic view of reform through state intervention within capitalism, seeing capitalism as inherently incompatible with the democratic values of freedom, equality and solidarity. Democratic socialists believe that the issues inherent to capitalism can only be solved by TRANSITIONING FROM CAPITALISM TO SOCIALISM, by SUPERSEDING PRIVATE PROPERTY WITH SOME FORM OF SOCIAL OWNERSHIP, with any attempt to address the economic contradictions of capitalism through reforms only likely to generate more problems elsewhere in the capitalist economy."


"Democratic socialism is defined as having a socialist economy in which the means of production are SOCIALLY AND COLLECTIVELY OWNED alongside a politically democratic system of government."


The Democratic Socialists of America defines democratic socialism as A MOVEMENT TO ELIMINATE CAPITALISM by evolving a "SOCIAL ORDER BASED ON POPULAR CONTROL OF RESOURCES AND PRODUCTION..."


What Caused Venezuela's Collapse Is No Mystery — Except To Economically Illiterate Journalists

What Caused Venezuela's Collapse Is No Mystery — Except To Economically Illiterate Journalists

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Economics: Why is it that reporters keep scratching their heads about Venezuela's descent into extreme poverty and chaos? The cause is simple. Socialism. End it and you will end the misery.

When the New York Times wrote about Venezuela's ongoing collapse a year ago, it described how the country was suffering "painful shortages … even of basic foods," and how "electricity and water are being rationed, and huge areas of the country have spent months with little of either."

Here is how the Times explained the reason for Venezuela's dire situation: "The growing economic crisis (was) fueled by low prices for oil, the country's main export; a drought that has crippled Venezuela's ability to generate hydroelectric power; and a long decline in manufacturing and agricultural production."

There's no mention — not one — of the fact that Hugo Chávez tried to turn Venezuela into a socialist paradise, policies that his successor Nicolás Maduro has continued. The Times' coverage is par for the course.

Venezuela was never a model free market economy. A couple decades ago, the Heritage Foundation gave it a 59.8 ranking on its Index of Freedom — which measures how free or government-controlled an economy is. That put it at the edge of being "moderately free."

Then Chavez nationalized the oil industry, agricultural operations, transportation, power generation, telecommunications, steel production, banks. Today Venezuela is the third least free economy in the world, ahead of only Cuba and North Korea.

As a direct result of those actions, Venezuela went from being on the wealthiest countries in South America — one rich in natural resources — to a country where people are literally fighting for scraps of food. Last year, Venezuela's economy shrank 18%. The unemployment rate is 25% and climbing. Inflation could reach 2,068% next year. Riots have become routine.

As we have noted many times in this space, it is socialism, not oil prices or the weather or greedy businessmen or any other such factor that's to blame for Venezuela's economic crisis. This is what socialism produces. Always and everywhere. It is as close to an iron law of economics as there can be.

Yet reporters continue to obfuscate, if not totally ignore, this economic reality when they try to explain to readers what is going on down there.

The Los Angeles Times says that it's only "anti-government protesters" who "blame Venezuela's economic crisis on the policies of Maduro and his predecessor, Hugo Chávez." While "supporters of the government say the culprits are a drop in international oil prices as well as 'corrupt' business leaders."

There's no attempt made by the reporter to say who is right.

An explainer by the Associated Press says the "oil boom and bust" is to blame for the crisis. "The plunge in world oil prices has left the government owing money across the board, from foreign airlines to oil service companies. Most of the anti-poverty gains made under Chavez have been erased and people are grappling with severe food and medicine shortages."

USA Today said that the reason Venezuelans were resorting to hunting dogs and pigeons for food was because "although Venezuela has the world's largest petroleum reserves, the country has suffered from a combination of lower oil prices and tight limits on dollar purchases that have cut off vital food and most other imports. The result has been a plunging economy and the world's highest inflation rate — above 700%."

Others blamed a drought for the country's problems. The Wall Street Journal reported last spring that "the newer hardships are water scarcity and increasingly critical power blackouts — a byproduct of the lack of water in a country dependent on hydroelectric dams."

Why do reporters ignore the obvious? We'd surmise that it's largely because liberal journalists are infatuated with the idea of socialism.

Here's how the AP lovingly described Chavez: "a political outsider promising to upset the old order and funnel some of the country's enormous oil wealth to the poor. Poverty rates fell sharply during his administration, and many people continue to see him as a beloved Robin Hood figure who gave them houses, free health care, better education and a place at the table in government."

That list of "accomplishments" reads like the Democratic Party platform.

It is their unwillingness to admit that socialism can't work that drives so many mainstream journalists to look for something, anything, else to blame when socialist economies invariable fail.[/quote]


Denmark Tells Bernie Sanders It's Had Enough Of His 'Socialist' Slurs

Denmark Tells Bernie Sanders It's Had Enough Of His 'Socialist' Slurs

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The Danes apparently have grown weary of Sen. Bernie Sanders insulting their country. Denmark is not a socialist nation, says its prime minister. It has a "market economy."

Sanders, the Democratic presidential candidate who calls himself a socialist, has used Denmark as the example of the socialist utopia he wants to create in America. During the Democrats' first debate last month, he said "we should look to countries like Denmark, like Sweden and Norway, and learn from what they have accomplished for their working people."

While appearing in New Hampshire in September, Sanders said that he had "talked to a guy from Denmark" who told him that in Denmark, "it is very hard to become very, very rich, but it's pretty hard to be very, very poor."

"And that makes a lot of sense to me."

So because something makes sense to him, he has the right to force that system on people who don't want it? Isn't that what he's saying?

But we digress. This is about Danes being offending by Sanders using the word "socialist" to describe their form of government. And who can blame them, especially when the free world has had enough of national socialists and Soviet socialists and North Korean socialists and Cuban socialists?

While speaking at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, the center-right Danish Prime Minister Lars Lokke Rasmussen said he was aware "that some people in the U.S. associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism."

"Therefore," he said, "I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy."

Rasmussen acknowledged that "the Nordic model is an expanded welfare state which provides a high level of security to its citizens," but he also noted that it is "a successful market economy with much freedom to pursue your dreams and live your life as you wish."

To that we'll add that Sweden, another of Sanders' inspirations, has for decades quietly moved away from its cradle-to-grave form of government welfare. And the Swedes are better off for having done so, just as the Danes will continue to be better off as their government overhauls its welfare state.

If Sanders is going to continue to use these nations to guide his governing philosophy, he should base his policy positions on what they really are, not what he thinks they are or wants them to be. These countries have learned a harsh lesson. They don't deserve to be Berned again.

Nordic model - Wikipedia


The Nordic model (also called Nordic capitalism[1] or Nordic social democracy)[2][3] refers to the economic and social policies common to the Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Norway, Iceland and Sweden). This includes a combination of free market capitalism with a comprehensive welfare state and collective bargaining at the national level.[4][5] The Nordic model began to earn attention after World War II.[6]

Although there are significant differences among the Nordic countries, they all share some common traits. These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government;[7] and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade.[8]

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Except it works everywhere it is tried and it is the standard for all developed countries on this planet.

What do you have against civilization? Oh'yess, you think the rich should have it all and we all should live like the blacks of africa.
 
Your the odd ball that wants to get rid of all regulations, anti-trust, investment and economic standards.....I could name civilizations all the way back to the dawn of civilization from China, Roman republic, Athens, onto the civilization of europe that all had government play a important part in society. You're purposing something that has never worked before and never will over the standard of the world.
 
Except it works everywhere it is tried and it is the standard for all developed countries on this planet.

What do you have against civilization? Oh'yess, you think the rich should have it all and we all should live like the blacks of africa.


Really? Like where? And what makes you think I think such a thing. See this is why it is so hard to take you leftists seriously.
 
Your the odd ball that wants to get rid of all regulations, anti-trust, investment and economic standards.....I could name civilizations all the way back to the dawn of civilization from China, Roman republic, Athens, onto the civilization of europe that all had government play a important part in society. You're purposing something that has never worked before and never will over the standard of the world.

Thanks for dictating to me what I think, genius. I'm glad you know me better than I know myself.
 
Democratic socialism - Wikipedia


"Democratic socialism is a political ideology advocating a democratic political system alongside a SOCIALIST ECONOMIC SYSTEM, involving a combination of political democracy with SOCIAL OWNERSHIP OF THE MEANS OF PRODUCTION.




"Democratic socialism REJECTS etc etc
Your post is far too long and cluttered to reply to everything you wrote. Suffice to say that socialists have always believed in democracy. The old article you cited mischaracterized what Danish Prime Minister Lars Løkke Rasmussen said. He was not "offended" by Bernie Sanders describing Scandinavian countries as socialist and he wanted to correct the false impression that Americans might have of Denmark. Rasmussen explained that Denmark is not "a socialist planned economy". Bernie Sanders and Americans in general never thought of Denmark having a centrally-planned economy where all the means of production are state-owned. What Rasmussen did not understand is that heavily-taxed citizens to finance education, health care, and generous welfare programs are what Americans mean by socialism. Although Americans are misinformed by using the word socialism this way, Bernie Sanders has to consider that he is speaking to Americans and not Danes. A government funded fully welfare state such as Denmark is considered by Americans to be socialist.
 
Democratic socialism - Wikipedia


"Democratic socialism is a political ideology advocating a democratic political system alongside a SOCIALIST ECONOMIC SYSTEM, involving a combination of political democracy with SOCIAL OWNERSHIP OF THE MEANS OF PRODUCTION.




"Democratic socialism REJECTS etc etc
Your post is far too long and cluttered to reply to everything you wrote. Suffice to say that socialists have always believed in democracy. The old article you cited mischaracterized what Danish Prime Minister Lars Løkke Rasmussen said. He was not "offended" by Bernie Sanders describing Scandinavian countries as socialist and he wanted to correct the false impression that Americans might have of Denmark. Rasmussen explained that Denmark is not "a socialist planned economy". Bernie Sanders and Americans in general never thought of Denmark having a centrally-planned economy where all the means of production are state-owned. What Rasmussen did not understand is that heavily-taxed citizens to finance education, health care, and generous welfare programs are what Americans mean by socialism. Although Americans are misinformed by using the word socialism this way, Bernie Sanders has to consider that he is speaking to Americans and not Danes. A government funded fully welfare state such as Denmark is considered by Americans to be socialist.


Well if you would have read my entire post you would see that I acknowledged the Nordic Model and the large welfare state they have. The difference is that the Nordic Model is based on having a large welfare state within a capitalist market economy. Democratic-Socialism is still socialism where the government plans the economy and owns the means of production. Socialism is the step towards communism as the government first takes over all of a nation's business and enterprise to eventually give it to the "people." The thing is that it never works like that. Humans are inherently greedy and giving the government full power like that always leads to leaders like Joseph Stalin and Mao Tse-Tung and Fidel Castro.
 
Democratic socialism - Wikipedia


"Democratic socialism is a political ideology advocating a democratic political system alongside a SOCIALIST ECONOMIC SYSTEM, involving a combination of political democracy with SOCIAL OWNERSHIP OF THE MEANS OF PRODUCTION.




"Democratic socialism REJECTS etc etc
Your post is far too long and cluttered to reply to everything you wrote. Suffice to say that socialists have always believed in democracy. The old article you cited mischaracterized what Danish Prime Minister Lars Løkke Rasmussen said. He was not "offended" by Bernie Sanders describing Scandinavian countries as socialist and he wanted to correct the false impression that Americans might have of Denmark. Rasmussen explained that Denmark is not "a socialist planned economy". Bernie Sanders and Americans in general never thought of Denmark having a centrally-planned economy where all the means of production are state-owned. What Rasmussen did not understand is that heavily-taxed citizens to finance education, health care, and generous welfare programs are what Americans mean by socialism. Although Americans are misinformed by using the word socialism this way, Bernie Sanders has to consider that he is speaking to Americans and not Danes. A government funded fully welfare state such as Denmark is considered by Americans to be socialist.


Well if you would have read my entire post you would see that I acknowledged the Nordic Model and the large welfare state they have. The difference is that the Nordic Model is based on having a large welfare state within a capitalist market economy. Democratic-Socialism is still socialism where the government plans the economy and owns the means of production. Socialism is the step towards communism as the government first takes over all of a nation's business and enterprise to eventually give it to the "people." The thing is that it never works like that. Humans are inherently greedy and giving the government full power like that always leads to leaders like Joseph Stalin and Mao Tse-Tung and Fidel Castro.
You are inventing your own language for some reason. To begin with, no-one talks about "Democratic-Socialism". In Europe we have social democratic political parties and some are in the majority in some member states of the European Union. None of them propose that the state should own the means of production for the whole economy. What is meant by social democracy is a proper welfare system, funded by taxation, both personal income tax and corporation tax. It has nothing to do with communism. The European Union promotes enterprise and free markets but robust welfare programs such as Denmark are considered socialist or even communist by most Americans who believe in the government not providing the degree of welfare that is considered normal in Europe. Americans seem to think that the capitalist system with little or no regulation for health, safety, living wages, and job security, works best.
 
Except it works everywhere it is tried and it is the standard for all developed countries on this planet.

What do you have against civilization? Oh'yess, you think the rich should have it all and we all should live like the blacks of africa.
Read the OP
 
Except it works everywhere it is tried and it is the standard for all developed countries on this planet.

What do you have against civilization? Oh'yess, you think the rich should have it all and we all should live like the blacks of africa.

With the departure of white imperialistic colonial powers, who exploited enslaved blacks in Africa, that continent is now rich and free.

Stop your derogatory and racist lies!
 
This is for the economic illiterates on here who think Democratic-Socialism is not the same thing as socialism. This is also for those who keep touting Canada and the Nordic countries as examples of socialism working when these countries really are not socialist.

Right! Social democracy and democratic socialism are distinctly different!
 
This is for the economic illiterates on here who think Democratic-Socialism is not the same thing as socialism. This is also for those who keep touting Canada and the Nordic countries as examples of socialism working when these countries really are not socialist.

Right! Social democracy and democratic socialism are distinctly different!
Does this mean conservatives have to stop calling democrats socialists?
 
This is for the economic illiterates on here who think Democratic-Socialism is not the same thing as socialism.
Hopefully we all realize that economic systems exist on a continuum, and that pure socialism exists clearly to the Left of Democratic Socialism.

So, for example, Venezuela is to the Left of Germany, we are to the Right.

We have "socialistic" elements in our own country.

The question is, where we choose to exist on that continuum.
.
 
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This is for the economic illiterates on here who think Democratic-Socialism is not the same thing as socialism.
Hopefully we all realize that economic systems exist on a continuum, and that pure socialism exists clearly to the Left of Democratic Socialism.

So, for example, Venezuela is to the Left of Germany, we are to the Right.

We have "socialistic" elements in our own country.

The question is, where we choose to exist on that continuum.
.

This continuum is stupid.

The only continuum that is relevant to thoughtful people is how voluntary the society is. The only question is how much rape, pillaging and coercion do we want to allow. I think all the evidence shows, less the better.

By this continuum, Hitler's economy was socialist, such a thing has little to do with left right spectrum...
 
This is for the economic illiterates on here who think Democratic-Socialism is not the same thing as socialism.
Hopefully we all realize that economic systems exist on a continuum, and that pure socialism exists clearly to the Left of Democratic Socialism.

So, for example, Venezuela is to the Left of Germany, we are to the Right.

We have "socialistic" elements in our own country.

The question is, where we choose to exist on that continuum.
.

This continuum is stupid.

The only continuum that is relevant to thoughtful people is how voluntary the society is. The only question is how much rape, pillaging and coercion do we want to allow. I think all the evidence shows, less the better.
You really don't think economic systems are on a continuum?

We have Medicare and Social Security. Are we a pure socialist country?
.
 
This is for the economic illiterates on here who think Democratic-Socialism is not the same thing as socialism.
Hopefully we all realize that economic systems exist on a continuum, and that pure socialism exists clearly to the Left of Democratic Socialism.

So, for example, Venezuela is to the Left of Germany, we are to the Right.

We have "socialistic" elements in our own country.

The question is, where we choose to exist on that continuum.
.

This continuum is stupid.

The only continuum that is relevant to thoughtful people is how voluntary the society is. The only question is how much rape, pillaging and coercion do we want to allow. I think all the evidence shows, less the better.
You really don't think economic systems are on a continuum?

We have Medicare and Social Security. Are we a pure socialist country?
.

No, I said your continuum is stupid and thus leads to errors in logic.

For example, you made it sound like government programs or socialism are automatically associated with the left. So Hitler was a leftist?
 

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