Democracy made America ill, but can Democracy save us?

[Vastator]

Advanced civilizations require structure. Neanderthals are afraid of structure.

So far, you're the only one projecting fear. Funny thing that...

 

[Mac1958]

So far, you're the only one projecting fear. Funny thing that...

If that's what you sense from your cave, that's fine.

 

[Innocynioc]

The United States is not a democracy, has never been a democracy and our founding fathers tried to make sure it would never be a democracy. Talk of "our" democracy makes one seem ignorant. We are a representative republic. The difference between the two is vast and very important.

 

[Rumpole]

Forgive me. I was listening to the ultra right wing MAGA cultist that is the President of Mexico who said it was just a political witch hunt that goes on in banana republics.

that's odd....
Is France a banana republic?

France: In 2018, former French President Nicolas Sarkozy was indicted on charges of corruption and influence peddling. He is accused of accepting millions of euros in illegal campaign funding from the regime of late Libyan dictator Muammar Gaddafi.

Is Italy a banana republic?

Italy: In 2011, Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi was indicted on charges of paying an underage prostitute and abuse of power. He was ultimately acquitted of the charges, but he has faced several other legal challenges throughout his career.

Is Israel a banana republic?

Israel: In 2019, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was indicted on charges of bribery, fraud, and breach of trust. He is accused of accepting gifts from wealthy businessmen and offering political favors in exchange for positive news coverage.

Is Iceland a banana republic?

Iceland: In 2016, Iceland's Prime Minister Sigmundur Davíð Gunnlaugsson resigned after the Panama Papers revealed that he and his wife had set up a company in an offshore tax haven. He was later indicted for tax evasion.

Is Spain a banana republic?

Spain: In 2018, Spain's Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy was ousted in a no-confidence vote following a corruption scandal involving his Popular Party. Several members of his party were indicted on charges of embezzlement, fraud, and money laundering.

In other words, indicting a Prime Minister or President among the first world countries, AKA 'western developed nations',
of which the US is a member, is NOT unusual.

You see, these countries believe in the concept that 'no one is above the law' and if we do not, then rule of law is dead, and if rule of law is dead, then we become a third world country.

Do the crime, do the time. Goes for everyone, including the president.

Mexican president criticizes Trump felony charges

Mexican President Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador on Wednesday said he does not agree with the criminal charges brought against former U.S. President Donald Trump.

www.reuters.com

Well, at least he's not going to pay for Trump's wall. Can't be all that bad of a fellow.

Nor will I listen to the ultra right wing MAGA cultist that is the President of El Salvidor who said the same thing

El Salvador president blasts Trump indictment: 'Just imagine if this happened in any other country'

The president of El Salvador slammed the indictment of Donald Trump, suggesting it would now be hypocritical for the U.S. to promote democracy with its foreign policy.

www.foxnews.com

Now there's a reliable source, a third world leader. hah!

It' won't happen again. Do you have any more of that there DNC cool aid to drink? I feel a tad thirsty.

It's spelled 'kool-aid'. If you are going to traffic in cheap shots, least you could do is spell the brand correctly.

Cheers,
Rumpole

 

[Rumpole]

The United States is not a democracy, has never been a democracy and our founding fathers tried to make sure it would never be a democracy. Talk of "our" democracy makes one seem ignorant. We are a representative republic. The difference between the two is vast and very important.

No, clearly, you are the ignorant one, of the terms, 'Republic', and 'Democracy'. in fact, in my 72 years on this earth, the time that I recall that Republicans started pushing this bogus narrative coincided about the time they had trouble winning the popular vote.

No wonder republicans do not like democracy, well it seems that democracy doesn't care for republicans that much, either.

Now, I realize you have a short attention span and are not likely to read this entire post, but, in the remote event that you do change your mind and want to be educated on this subject, I have summarily destroyed the right wing trope 'America is not a democracy' here:

Dems, don't let Repubs bamboozle you, America IS a democracy.

{Caveat: those who are weaned on soundbites, one liners and snarky quips, who have subsequent short attention spans, ignore this post] This trope has been floundering around the conservative/libertarian circles on the right for some time now, and now Trump has joined the *RNAD regurgitators...

www.usmessageboard.com

This trope has been floundering around the conservative/libertarian circles on the right for some time now, and now Trump
has joined the *RNAD regurgitators.

*Republic, Not A Democracy.

Some Republicans claim that 'proof' is in the pledge: "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands..."

Uh, no...I'm sorry to inform you on the right, especially republicans, but "Republic", "Constitutional Republic", "Democracy", "Liberal Democracy", "Western Democracy", etc., these are NOT mutually exclusive terms. I know you think they are, but no, they aren't. They are general terms for basically the same principle, that a Democracy, using the broadest sense of the term, which is the most common use of the term, means a nation of liberty, where free speech, freedom of assembly, everyone of age has the vote, and other assorted virtues, prevail, as opposed to a monarchy or dictatorship or totalitarian non democratic nations.


To wit:

...[a] fundamental maxim of republican government...requires that the sense of the majority should prevail. --Alexander Hamilton, Federalist #22

When Madison/Hamilton (i.e., "Publius") was making a distinction between 'Democracy' and 'Republic', favoring a Republic, he wasn't dissing 'Democracy' in the general sense, he/they were using the term in parochial sense, he was making a distinction between a government where laws are voted on by the electorate, a direct democracy, and one that has laws enacted by a Republic consisting of representative body, each of whose members are elected by popular vote. In America, this is the House of Representatives, Congress, and The Senate, i.e., our bicameral legislature which includes the Vice President when a tie vote needs to be broken. They weren't using the term as it has been used in academia, journalism and public spheres as it has ben used for a very long time.
Now, just in case some of you on the right assert that my Fed #22 quote is out of context, but no, because the meat of the statement stands alone and the context it was written in doesn't really change that fact, so context wasn't necessary.

And what was that context? Hamilton was actually arguing that the principle of equal suffrage between states of different sizes (of populations) contradicts the principle that it is a maxim of a republican form of government that the majority should prevail. Because he was arguing in favor of that principle, the principle, as a principle, it therefore stands alone --not to mention that he states that contrary arguments are 'sophistry'. Clearly, Hamilton favors that the majority should prevail in elections. This IS democracy.

Note that, as any encyclopedia will define, the term 'Republic', is a broad term, and is merely any government that is not a monarchy, where the leaders are either voted in OR appointed. also note that all elections, yes, the many thousands of them from local municipalities on up, excluding only the Vice Pres. and President, are voted via direct democracy. Thus only the VP and the Prez are voted via the EC. (Of course, laws are enacted via the legislature and the Prez but we do have laws, known as 'ballot initiatives' enacted by direct vote in many states). So, we can rightfully state that the vast majority of elections in the United States are done via direct democracy.

There are all types of Republics; there are Constitutional Republics (AKA Democratic Republics aligned with a Constitution) , Islamic Republics, There are Socialist Republics, Calvinist Republics, and so on. But, listening to any Republican, (of late) they will assert that a 'Republic" and a "Democracy' are not the same thing. Let's be clear on this point, A Republic may not include a democracy but a democracy is just about always a Republic, and so, most of the time, these days, when we say 'Republic' we are thinking of a democracy of a certain type, which is defined by whatever charter the Republic is aligned with and usually that is a representative democracy of some kind.

America is a Constitutional [Federal] Republic, AKA "Representative Democracy: AKA "Liberal Democracy" AKA "Western Democracy", noting that Representative Democracy refers to the House of Representatives, and not so much the Electoral College. If we didn't have an EC, America would still be a representative democracy. A number of western democracies, or rather, most of them, elect their president by direct, majority vote, yet are still known as 'representative democracies' precisely because of the fact that they have, like that of the US, an elected body of representatives who propose legislation on behalf of constituents. Now, if anyone is going to claim otherwise, no, I don't buy it, because I've learned this since middle school, read it everywhere I've ever read about politics, heard it spoken on the tongues of pundits, academicians, and leaders of every type since I was a teenager interested in the subject --- we were taught, without exception, "America is a Democracy", and "Democracy is core value in America".

I mean, this stupid RNAD thing, well, it's getting out of hand, and I can clearly see what is driving it: IN FACT, this idea that 'America is not a Democracy' became popular with Republicans right about the time they started losing the popular vote. Gee, what a coincidence, it seems they need to dis democracy in order to feel about about their winning the presidency via a particular fluke in the electoral college system. And don't tell me that not winning the popular vote doesn't bother Republicans. I know it really annoys Trump which is why he lied when he said that he would have won the popular vote had not 3 million illegals voted (in the 2016 election, which was a lie). No, y'all would definitely prefer to win the popular vote. Don't tell me otherwise, I just don't believe you.

It's really gotten a lot of traction now, the RNAD myth, given that in the last few decades Republicans are not winning the popular vote, so now they're trying to poo poo democracy, and doing a lot to diminish it, as a matter of fact, and this trope allows them to feel good about doing it. Republics don't like democracy given that of late, it appears that Democracy doesn't like Republicans. Well, they are bringing it on themselves.

Well, I got bad news for Republicans, either you have a democracy or Fascism. It's one or the other and you really need to decide which side you are on. You can move towards one, and when you do, you are moving away from the other, and that, in my view, describes Trumpism, a move away from democracy towards fascism. The Lincoln Repubs recognize this and have rejected Trumpism hence the "Lincoln Project".

America is all about elections. We have local elections in every municipality in America, thousands of them. We have elections in every state for various state level positions form Governor on down. And then we have elections for the House and the Senate, and finally, The President and Vice president via the electoral college. All sorts of elections, so don't tell me, those of you on the right, and Republicans, that America is "not" a democracy because the BS meter is redlining......

Any country that has as many elections as America has is a democracy. No, that it's a 'representative democracy' doesn't alter the statement. Remember, the term 'Democracy' has both broad and parochial usages.

The Trumpist claim that we're 'a republic, not a democracy' is even more dangerous than it sounds

Trumpist Republicans are lately in the habit of repeating this doozy of a notion that the United States of America is “a republic, not a democracy” (RNAD). Often, this comes as a response to statements like, “Trumpism is a threat to democracy!” While your first reaction might have been, “Huh?” or, “Are these stone-cold nincompoops out of their ever-loving minds?” the refrain remains a consistent rebuttal from the extreme right.

Responding to RNAD requires understanding what right-wing extremists mean when they say “a republic, not a democracy.” It means they don’t care about democracy. This line of argument provides an ideological justification for some of the most extreme actions being taken by members of the MAGAsphere—actions aimed at thwarting American democracy itself.

BINGO!

A democracy is often a term referring to....

1. A nation where citizens enjoy rights.
2. A nation where citizens enjoy certain freedoms, of speech, free assembly, freedom to work, be self-employed, to achieve one's aims, etc.
3. Freedom of religion, or freedom from religion
4. The right to vote once one is 18.
5. A nation with a government of elected leaders, either directly or indirectly.
6. A Republic, Federal, Constitutional, or otherwise, which is, essentially, a government of elected leaders, indirectly or directly, whose legislation is enacted by the elected representatives constituting a 'representative democracy' generally under the governance of a constitution.

Definition of republic

1a(1): a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president
(2): a political unit (such as a nation) having such a form of government
b(1): a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law
(2): a political unit (such as a nation) having such a form of government

 

[task0778]

Democracy made America ill, but can Democracy save us?​

Uh, no. I don't think so, because the democrats want everyone to accept the idea that the popular vote should be the only way to elect a president. They want that, because for the foreseeable future it appears they will win the popular vote count no matter who runs on either side. But first, let's clear up one thing: democracy did not make America ill, the democrats did that. Which IMHO is not to say the republicans aren't complicit, but the policies of the Democratic Party are going to be disastrous if they are enacted. Further, if at some point they manage to win the WH, the Senate, and the House again with enough votes to abolish the filibuster, then we are well and truly screwed. Why? Cuz they'll immediately pack the Supreme Court with their own progressive liberals and then it's Katy bar the door. Followed by 2 new states, DC and Puerto Rico, making it even harder to lose their Senate majority, and they'll federalize elections to the point where a republican would have almost no chance to get elected outside of the reddest of red states.

You like equity over equality? It'll be perfectly fine to discriminate in favor of the politically favored identity group. Impartial treatment in the courts? Gone. You get to keep what you earn? Nope, they'll take however much of your money they want and give it someone else. Do you like the idea of a guy competing with females in any sporting event? All he has to do is say I identify as a female. Maybe cut off his dick. Do you believe a minor should be able to change their gender without their parents' knowledge or consent? How do you feel about an open door immigration policy? Let anybody in and make 'em citizens that can vote for the democrats, no problem. Gun control won't be a problem cuz they'll confiscate every gun they can find, and ammo will be illegal.

It won't be long before creativity and innovation are dead and we're all in a depression that won't go away. But we'll all be equal though. Equally destitute. Well, except for the democrat overlords. It ain't going to be pretty. Check out Venezuela, that's us under a democrat's idea of a democracy, which is we win no matter how.

 

[Rumpole]

Democracy made America ill, but can Democracy save us?​

Uh, no. I don't think so, because the democrats want everyone to accept the idea that the popular vote should be the only way to elect a president. They want that, because for the foreseeable future it appears they will win the popular vote count no matter who runs on either side. But first, let's clear up one thing: democracy did not make America ill, the democrats did that. Which IMHO is not to say the republicans aren't complicit, but the policies of the Democratic Party are going to be disastrous if they are enacted. Further, if at some point they manage to win the WH, the Senate, and the House again with enough votes to abolish the filibuster, then we are well and truly screwed. Why? Cuz they'll immediately pack the Supreme Court with their own progressive liberals and then it's Katy bar the door. Followed by 2 new states, DC and Puerto Rico, making it even harder to lose their Senate majority, and they'll federalize elections to the point where a republican would have almost no chance to get elected outside of the reddest of red states.

""fundamental maxim of republican government, which requires that the sense of the majority should prevail." --Alexander Hamilton Federalist #22. There is no greater form of democracy than 'one man one vote'.

The EC does not function according to Hamilton's and Madison's original design. The state of the late 18th century did not contain states with 39 million people. The two senators per state were meant to give more voice to smaller states, but they never, in their wildest dreams, imagined a state with 39 million and such a state having only 2 senators. The point is, the system needs an update to address the needs of modernity. We could start by ending the 'winner takes all' rule, and distributed the electors more proportionately. Also, we need to repeal Citizen's United and restore the Voting Rights Act (repeal the court ruling that gutted it).

The filibuster is not in the constitution. But I will support returning the filibuster to it's original design, where, to block legislation the initiators have to send someone to the floor to run out the clock, the 'talking filibuster' as it used to be.

Republicans have already stacked the court with 6 conservatives to 3 liberals. What Democrats want to do is correct that imbalance, given that the court currently does not reflect the needs of the electorate. Please don't give me any crap about 'their political leanings are irrelevant'. Indeed, they are, which is why y'all selected them, to end abortion and put a gun in every persons hand, in ever teachers desk, in sunday schools, in bars and restaurants, even in the halls of congress, and everywhere their gun manufacturer donors want them to be in order to please their stockholders, and not someone Dems wanted. It's all about politics, so cut the crap.

You like equity over equality?

Equity in law means 'fair and just'. No one on the left (who is intelligent) wants equality of outcome, we want equality of opportunity. That is 'equity'.

It'll be perfectly fine to discriminate in favor of the politically favored identity group. Impartial treatment in the courts? Gone. You get to keep what you earn? Nope, they'll take however much of your money they want and give it someone else.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of taxation.

You must hate the constitution, then.

Per the US Constitution, the government has a legitimate claim on a portion of incomes.

Oh, you're argument is on how the money is spent, eh?

See, that is the nature of taxation, there is no way in hell the government can spend money in ways that pleases everyone.

It didn't yesterday, it won't today, or tomorrow, or ever. It's the nature of the beast.

It's called democracy. Welcome to the club. Republicans do not have a monopoly on griping about government taxation.

Do you like the idea of a guy competing with females in any sporting event?

No, I don't, and I stated this in my other OP about my thoughts on transgenderism/gender fluidity.

All he has to do is say I identify as a female. Maybe cut off his dick. Do you believe a minor should be able to change their gender without their parents' knowledge or consent?

I'm on your side on this issue. See Liberal/libertarian Bill Maher's comments on the subject, it's on YouTube.

How do you feel about an open door immigration policy? Let anybody in and make 'em citizens that can vote for the democrats, no problem.

Republican hysterics. Smaller farms are having trouble getting produce to market. this is because immigration policy is too strict. We need a means to get workers to farms, workers to hotels and restaurants. In my city, there are help wanted signs in hotels and restaurants all over the city owing to a shortage of immigrants, the only persons who will take these jobs.

Gun control won't be a problem cuz they'll confiscate every gun they can find, and ammo will be illegal.

Republican hysterics.

It won't be long before creativity and innovation are dead and we're all in a depression that won't go away.

Republican hysterics.

But we'll all be equal though. Equally destitute. Well, except for the democrat overlords. It ain't going to be pretty. Check out Venezuela, that's us under a democrat's idea of a democracy, which is we win no matter how.

The 'venezuela' trope. i've heard it a million times. Republican hysterics.

Unreality. You ought to sit down an have an honest conversation with some sensible democrats, such as myself, and I can disabuse you of all the tired right wing tired tropes you have bought into which are being tossed around the right wing echo chambers.

Cheers,
Rumpole.