Deal or no deal? Repeal or no repeal?

[topspin]

Leave it Obama needs his two big victories to stave off the Carter comparisons.

 

[Foxfyre]

Just how much authority do you wish to hand over to the government to order, direct, regulate, and manage your life for you?

All of it, seemingly.

Sometimes, just reading the posts on message boards, you would think so. But you know what? Liberals are Americans too. And I think at some level they value their freedom as much as the next person.

But I think liberals really do look to government to cure all of societal ills and, so long as those in government want to force people to do what liberals want them to do, they are all for it. Liberals despise government that supports and promotes or orders what liberals don't support just as much as conservatives do though.

Other than that necessary to secure an defend our rights, Conservatives see all government authority as dangerous to personal freedoms and the American way and don't want government forcing people to do much of anything even if it is something conservatives would like to see happen. The price for that is simply too high. Secure and defend our rights, enforce the laws necessary to do that, and do what governments do to promote the general welfare--meaning equally for everybody--and then just stop. Don't do any more. Let the people govern themselves and create the kind of society they want to have.

 

[Foxfyre]

Commenting on Care's post, I feel had by government from all sides most of the time any more. I don't feel our government, whether it be Republicans or Democrats, give a damn about us or what we think and they are in it for themselves, their own prestige, their own power, their own influence, their own personal fortunes and put that ahead of all other priorities.

But as far as the minority party proposals during the process of any major legislation being passed, we honestly don't know how it would shake out because it usually doesn't even make it out of committee, and it usually never comes to a vote. It isn't debated. It doesn't get serious or comprehesnive news coverage. And we don't know what the final product might look like.

For instance various Republicans came up with idea after idea after idea during this last healthcare debate but those got almost no media attention and none were allowed out of committee. Most of the leftwing bloggers continue to say that the GOP offered no alternatives at all which just isn't so. The Democrats did allow some gratuitous last minute amendments to be offered by Republicans, but allowed none that would be especially popular, gave what they did allow no serious consideration, and voted them all down on straight party lines.

Then they get before the cameras and sanctimoniously bemoan the fact that Republicans are evil and there was no bipartisan support. And yes, the Republicans have been as disingenuous in the past too.

Until the people themselves start voting out non responsive representatives and put people into government who are not their purely to advance their own political and financial fortunes, I don't see it getting any better.

 

[JakeStarkey]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Foxfyre again". Thank you for the thoughtful posts.

 

[Immanuel]

Foxfyre, I feel your pain, but until the 13th amendment is repealed, feds taxing our income is legal.

Are you really suggesting that we repeal the 13th Amendment!!!! Was this a subconscious Freudian Slip by chance?

The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

Amendment 13 - Slavery Abolished. Ratified 12/6/1865. History

1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Are you absolutely sure you meant the 13th Amendment? That could get you labeled a racist!

Maybe you meant the 16th Amendment?

Amendment 16 - Status of Income Tax Clarified. Ratified 2/3/1913. Note History

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

Immie

PS: Just kidding, I know you meant the 16th Amendment. Just a typo, but daggnamit that kind of typo can get you branded real fast!

 

[Immanuel]

What's evident to me, is that this Bill of the supposed Democrats was nearly the PRECISE Bill of the supposed Republicans in the very recent past.

-Here we are... where our rolls/positions, have completely reversed....yet we each STILL, for the most part, call ourselves Republicans/conservatives or call ourselves Democratic/liberals?

How can that be, for goodness sakes?

How, can our own party representatives, have convinced the Democratic voters that this was THEIR plan and a good plan at that....WHEN it is the very Republican plan that they were AGAINST previously?

I mean, how did they get the media and the blogs from both sides of the aisle that were AWARE of this reversal stance, to NOT report this, to not give it legs, while the health care debate was going on and before the vote?

Think about this...

The Democratic Party COULD have used this information.... one would initially presume, to PLAY AGAINST the Republican Party, as a marketing tool. Meaning they really could have USED this information to point out how hypocritical the Republicans, who were mouthing off that this was Socialism at its PEAK, and government take over at its PEAK, really were.....

I mean...it really COULD have helped the Democratic Party member's cause...one could speculate, no?

BUT THEY DID NOT USE THIS INFORMATION against the Republicans?

So I am left with, WHY NOT?

And then, in the heavens, I heard the Angels sing....ahhhh ahhhhh ahhhhhhhhhh!!!

IF the Democratic Leadership used this information about the Democratic plan being the Republican plan of the recent past, THEN most of the Democratic voting citizens WOULD HAVE REJECTED IT, just on the basis of it being a Republican plan, since the two sides Party organizers have MADE us DESPISE each other so much.

Yep, that's what I think....and they could not RISK this happening, so they sat on their hands, and did NOTHING to really focus on the hypocrisy of the Republicans rejecting such plan, NOW.

And equally perplexing, is that the Republican Party Organizers and Leaders, managed to also keep out of the Media and Keep away from their republican voting constituency, even on their own right leaning message boards and blogs, this information that this Democratic plan was essentially the SAME plan that the Republicans proposed back in 1994 and 2003 as their FULLY ACCEPTABLE alternative plan for health care reform, verses the Democratic plan at that time.

And somehow the republican leadership and Blog organizers for the right wing, managed to CONVINCE near every Republican voting constituent that this "supposed plan of the Democrats" was PURE EVIL SOCIALISM AND GOVERNMENT TAKE OVER NAZISM, when it was THEIR ORIGINAL PLAN!

sheesh sheesh sheesh....

Do you feel HAD? (I sure do, from both the front and the back!)

No, I feel like the Democrats are taking this one step at a time and their real goal is an absolute takeover of the Health Insurance Industry. Of course, that was probably the initial Republican goal as well.

Hey, do you think that maybe there is hope that this might happen in Social Security Reform as well? {crosses fingers}

Immie

 

[Care4all]

Commenting on Care's post, I feel had by government from all sides most of the time any more. I don't feel our government, whether it be Republicans or Democrats, give a damn about us or what we think and they are in it for themselves, their own prestige, their own power, their own influence, their own personal fortunes and put that ahead of all other priorities.

But as far as the minority party proposals during the process of any major legislation being passed, we honestly don't know how it would shake out because it usually doesn't even make it out of committee, and it usually never comes to a vote. It isn't debated. It doesn't get serious or comprehesnive news coverage. And we don't know what the final product might look like.

For instance various Republicans came up with idea after idea after idea during this last healthcare debate but those got almost no media attention and none were allowed out of committee. Most of the leftwing bloggers continue to say that the GOP offered no alternatives at all which just isn't so. The Democrats did allow some gratuitous last minute amendments to be offered by Republicans, but allowed none that would be especially popular, gave what they did allow no serious consideration, and voted them all down on straight party lines.

Then they get before the cameras and sanctimoniously bemoan the fact that Republicans are evil and there was no bipartisan support. And yes, the Republicans have been as disingenuous in the past too.

Until the people themselves start voting out non responsive representatives and put people into government who are not their purely to advance their own political and financial fortunes, I don't see it getting any better.

the h c bills of the republicans in 1994 and 2003 WAS THIS health care reform bill that was passed by the democrats foxfyre?

IT WAS the republican's previous plan with very very very minor changes....

we have been played like a violin.

Do you know what the Republican changes proposed in committee were? there would be a record of them even if they were denied. It would do justice if we KNEW what the denied proposals were, before judging whether they were good or BAD proposals...either way, they were probably the proposals of the Democrats back in 1994 and 2003... that the repubs hated back then, just because they had a Dem label on them....

I'm telling ya....something ain't right when both of our parties can take reversal positions and none of us, question it.

 

[Foxfyre]

Commenting on Care's post, I feel had by government from all sides most of the time any more. I don't feel our government, whether it be Republicans or Democrats, give a damn about us or what we think and they are in it for themselves, their own prestige, their own power, their own influence, their own personal fortunes and put that ahead of all other priorities.

But as far as the minority party proposals during the process of any major legislation being passed, we honestly don't know how it would shake out because it usually doesn't even make it out of committee, and it usually never comes to a vote. It isn't debated. It doesn't get serious or comprehesnive news coverage. And we don't know what the final product might look like.

For instance various Republicans came up with idea after idea after idea during this last healthcare debate but those got almost no media attention and none were allowed out of committee. Most of the leftwing bloggers continue to say that the GOP offered no alternatives at all which just isn't so. The Democrats did allow some gratuitous last minute amendments to be offered by Republicans, but allowed none that would be especially popular, gave what they did allow no serious consideration, and voted them all down on straight party lines.

Then they get before the cameras and sanctimoniously bemoan the fact that Republicans are evil and there was no bipartisan support. And yes, the Republicans have been as disingenuous in the past too.

Until the people themselves start voting out non responsive representatives and put people into government who are not their purely to advance their own political and financial fortunes, I don't see it getting any better.

the h c bills of the republicans in 1994 and 2003 WAS THIS health care reform bill that was passed by the democrats foxfyre?

IT WAS the republican's previous plan with very very very minor changes....

we have been played like a violin.

Do you know what the Republican changes proposed in committee were? there would be a record of them even if they were denied. It would do justice if we KNEW what the denied proposals were, before judging whether they were good or BAD proposals...either way, they were probably the proposals of the Democrats back in 1994 and 2003... that the repubs hated back then, just because they had a Dem label on them....

I'm telling ya....something ain't right when both of our parties can take reversal positions and none of us, question it.

I'm sure some of the stuff was recorded, but I don't feel like digging through the Library of Congress records to find it. Don't care enough actually. I'm not sure that all proposals are recorded when they don't even get assigned a number though. I need to look that up.

But I was paying attention through that whole process, was working here at home the whole time and had the radio and/or television on the whole time, so I observed much of what was happening. I watched almost all the floor debates on Cspan. The current legislation is not identical to that detailed GOP plan back in 1993 and this plan was also considerably different from Hillarycare.

That part doesn't matter to me all that much. They can't do something really hard without throwing a whole bunch of good ideas, bad ideas, and everything in between into the mix and looking at it all. The Republicans knew Hillarycare was Bill Clinton's Achilles heel and they were doing whatever they could to derail it. Would the proposal they came up with then have stood up to debate or would the final version have included those mandates that they now say were unconstitutional? We don't know because the Democrats didn't not allow any of those concepts to be debated.

This time the Republicans didn't have the numbers or cooperation from the media to do much to derail Obamacare.

But you're right to observe how 'convictions' change when it is politically expedient to change 'convictions'. Partisanship is perhaps the most stupid and destruction factor in our government. If you feel betrayed when it is obviously partisanship dictating 'convictions', well that just shows you're a smart lady. It doesn't do a hell of a lot to instill confidence in the process though does it.

 

[Polk]

Just how much authority do you wish to hand over to the government to order, direct, regulate, and manage your life for you?

All of it, seemingly.

Sometimes, just reading the posts on message boards, you would think so. But you know what? Liberals are Americans too. And I think at some level they value their freedom as much as the next person.

But I think liberals really do look to government to cure all of societal ills and, so long as those in government want to force people to do what liberals want them to do, they are all for it. Liberals despise government that supports and promotes or orders what liberals don't support just as much as conservatives do though.

Other than that necessary to secure an defend our rights, Conservatives see all government authority as dangerous to personal freedoms and the American way and don't want government forcing people to do much of anything even if it is something conservatives would like to see happen. The price for that is simply too high. Secure and defend our rights, enforce the laws necessary to do that, and do what governments do to promote the general welfare--meaning equally for everybody--and then just stop. Don't do any more. Let the people govern themselves and create the kind of society they want to have.

You're projecting your worldview on to others against, except it's liberals this time and not the Founding Fathers. Just because you think the government is the source of all problems in the world does not mean people who disagree with you think the government is the cure for all problems.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Foxfyre, I feel your pain, but until the 13th amendment is repealed, feds taxing our income is legal.

Are you really suggesting that we repeal the 13th Amendment!!!! Was this a subconscious Freudian Slip by chance?

The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

Amendment 13 - Slavery Abolished. Ratified 12/6/1865. History

1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Are you absolutely sure you meant the 13th Amendment? That could get you labeled a racist!

Maybe you meant the 16th Amendment?

Amendment 16 - Status of Income Tax Clarified. Ratified 2/3/1913. Note History

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

Immie

PS: Just kidding, I know you meant the 16th Amendment. Just a typo, but daggnamit that kind of typo can get you branded real fast!

Thanks, immie, aren't I the one to look silly! Thanks for the catch.

 

[Foxfyre]

All of it, seemingly.

Sometimes, just reading the posts on message boards, you would think so. But you know what? Liberals are Americans too. And I think at some level they value their freedom as much as the next person.

But I think liberals really do look to government to cure all of societal ills and, so long as those in government want to force people to do what liberals want them to do, they are all for it. Liberals despise government that supports and promotes or orders what liberals don't support just as much as conservatives do though.

Other than that necessary to secure an defend our rights, Conservatives see all government authority as dangerous to personal freedoms and the American way and don't want government forcing people to do much of anything even if it is something conservatives would like to see happen. The price for that is simply too high. Secure and defend our rights, enforce the laws necessary to do that, and do what governments do to promote the general welfare--meaning equally for everybody--and then just stop. Don't do any more. Let the people govern themselves and create the kind of society they want to have.

You're protecting your worldview on to others against, except it's liberals this time and not the Founding Fathers. Just because you think the government is the source of all problems in the world does not mean people who disagree with you think the government is the cure for all problems.

I wonder if its safe to say that only a tunnel visioned liberal would say that I have ever even remotely hinted that government is the source of all the problems in the world. Hyperbole much?

And the word you're looking for is 'project' instead of 'protect', but the conclusion you drew there is just as exaggerated.

But you know what? If you find my world view so objectionable, I would sincerely invite you to just put me on ignore and not read my posts. I'm sure you would be much happier and might even be able to convnce yourself there is no world view such as mine.

 

[daveman]

Sometimes, just reading the posts on message boards, you would think so. But you know what? Liberals are Americans too. And I think at some level they value their freedom as much as the next person.

I wish I could agree, but I can't.

Liberals place more importance on the collective than on the individual. And for the collective good, they're willing to give up freedom.

But I think liberals really do look to government to cure all of societal ills and, so long as those in government want to force people to do what liberals want them to do, they are all for it. Liberals despise government that supports and promotes or orders what liberals don't support just as much as conservatives do though.

Exactly. And the current crop of liberals have not for a moment considered what's going to happen when conservatives take over this government whose power has been greatly expanded.

Liberals live in the now. They don't learn from history (they can't, otherwise they wouldn't cling to policies that have been proven failures time and again), and they don't look to the future (see current deficit for proof of that).

Other than that necessary to secure an defend our rights, Conservatives see all government authority as dangerous to personal freedoms and the American way and don't want government forcing people to do much of anything even if it is something conservatives would like to see happen. The price for that is simply too high. Secure and defend our rights, enforce the laws necessary to do that, and do what governments do to promote the general welfare--meaning equally for everybody--and then just stop. Don't do any more. Let the people govern themselves and create the kind of society they want to have.

And think how wonderful America would be if she were run like that!

But no. Liberals see the government as a tool to remake society in their image (or else!). Because they can't live independently, they think others can't, either, so advocate a nanny state to have control over individual lives.

The left has given us the failed War on Poverty (trillions spent now, and all it's done is create a permanent dependent class), a failing economy, and a weaker nation.

Democrats can't be trusted with power. They screw it up. Every time.

 

[daveman]

All of it, seemingly.

Sometimes, just reading the posts on message boards, you would think so. But you know what? Liberals are Americans too. And I think at some level they value their freedom as much as the next person.

But I think liberals really do look to government to cure all of societal ills and, so long as those in government want to force people to do what liberals want them to do, they are all for it. Liberals despise government that supports and promotes or orders what liberals don't support just as much as conservatives do though.

Other than that necessary to secure an defend our rights, Conservatives see all government authority as dangerous to personal freedoms and the American way and don't want government forcing people to do much of anything even if it is something conservatives would like to see happen. The price for that is simply too high. Secure and defend our rights, enforce the laws necessary to do that, and do what governments do to promote the general welfare--meaning equally for everybody--and then just stop. Don't do any more. Let the people govern themselves and create the kind of society they want to have.

You're projecting your worldview on to others against, except it's liberals this time and not the Founding Fathers. Just because you think the government is the source of all problems in the world does not mean people who disagree with you think the government is the cure for all problems.

Then why is every solution to a problem proposed by liberals bigger government?

 

[Foxfyre]

Sometimes, just reading the posts on message boards, you would think so. But you know what? Liberals are Americans too. And I think at some level they value their freedom as much as the next person.

I wish I could agree, but I can't.

Liberals place more importance on the collective than on the individual. And for the collective good, they're willing to give up freedom.

But I think liberals really do look to government to cure all of societal ills and, so long as those in government want to force people to do what liberals want them to do, they are all for it. Liberals despise government that supports and promotes or orders what liberals don't support just as much as conservatives do though.

Exactly. And the current crop of liberals have not for a moment considered what's going to happen when conservatives take over this government whose power has been greatly expanded.

Liberals live in the now. They don't learn from history (they can't, otherwise they wouldn't cling to policies that have been proven failures time and again), and they don't look to the future (see current deficit for proof of that).

Other than that necessary to secure an defend our rights, Conservatives see all government authority as dangerous to personal freedoms and the American way and don't want government forcing people to do much of anything even if it is something conservatives would like to see happen. The price for that is simply too high. Secure and defend our rights, enforce the laws necessary to do that, and do what governments do to promote the general welfare--meaning equally for everybody--and then just stop. Don't do any more. Let the people govern themselves and create the kind of society they want to have.

And think how wonderful America would be if she were run like that!

But no. Liberals see the government as a tool to remake society in their image (or else!). Because they can't live independently, they think others can't, either, so advocate a nanny state to have control over individual lives.

The left has given us the failed War on Poverty (trillions spent now, and all it's done is create a permanent dependent class), a failing economy, and a weaker nation.

Democrats can't be trusted with power. They screw it up. Every time.

I know too many truly thoughtful, thinking liberals Daveman to lump them all into the same potato sack. It is true that one thing that makes them liberal is that they generally do look to government to address societal problems that conservative approach differently, but they can actually articulate a rationale for why they do that. They're wrong , but not unreasonable. They aren't like the numbnuts who just say stupid stuff and insult people.

What do you think will happen when the conservatives take over again? Will they remain conservative? Or revert to the 'liberal lite' that they were before? If the GOP blows it again as badly as they did the last time, they won't even be able to get elected dog catcher for a generation. And by that time we'll be pretty well screwed.

As for wouldn't the nation run on conservative principles be wonderful, it pretty much did up to Teddy Roosevelt. It has been slowly unraveling ever since. Until then we had made America the fastest growing, most prosperous, most innovative, most inventive, most productive, most generous, and biggest economy in the world, we had the best educated and biggest middle class in the world, Mom could stay home with the kids if she wanted to, and there was nothing but bright futures ahead of everybody. We had corrected most of our worst faults and had room for everybody to prosper.

I am enough of an optimist to believe conservative principles would re-create that amazing country and, because we have learned so much in the interim, we could be even bigger and better.

I also believe that mostly liberal principles will keep us on a continuous downward spiral.

 

[Harry Dresden]

you know Rw....this whole thing could have been done much easier for right now....with all the people out of work and with all the companies not doing so great....all that had to be done for right now is put forth a plan for helping the 20-25 million Americans who NEED ins right now.....it would have been a HELL of a lot cheaper and easier to implement....when the economy gets back in gear and unemployment drops back down to 3-4%.....then talk about a national plan.....if no one is working and companies are doing so so.....who is going to pay for this thing?....people working and companies doing great....this country can move mountains....right now....hills are kinda tough....

Yes, if the only problem with our healthcare was getting people insured. Problem is that costs keep escallating. more and more employers don't want to be in the insurance business, people are still tied to their employer if they have a pre-existing condition.
The Healthcare bill that passed did not do enough, a simple patch was not going to fix our problems.
Yea the GOP wanted us to wait. Now is not the right time, wait till we can afford it. That was the GOP position in 1994 and nothing was done for 15 years. We needed to get something on the books. Waiting for the GOP to say we are ready for national healthcare will last forever

are you responding to my post or someone elses?....

 

[Care4all]

I know too many truly thoughtful, thinking liberals Daveman to lump them all into the same potato sack. It is true that one thing that makes them liberal is that they generally do look to government to address societal problems that conservative approach differently, but they can actually articulate a rationale for why they do that. They're wrong , but not unreasonable. They aren't like the numbnuts who just say stupid stuff and insult people.

How do conservatives in Office actually take a different approach?

Remember that the Republicans in Majority created the Republican Medicare Pill Bill that was the largest expansion to entitlements in recent history? they expanded government every year they were in power by double digit increases, they expanded federal reach with no child left behind and they expanded presidential power with hundreds and hundreds of signing statements, executive orders and they passed more government control over the people with the Patriot Act.

HOW ARE THEY ANY DIFFERENT? Honestly....how are they any different?

Yes, they may talk the talk that you want to hear Fox, but they DO NOT, IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM, walk the talk, or walk the walk... they and the Dems do not have difference when it comes to things like this in my humble opinion...they only try to make us both think they are different, but they are NOT different....neither has one up, on the other....facts and actions show this.

What do you think will happen when the conservatives take over again? Will they remain conservative? Or revert to the 'liberal lite' that they were before? If the GOP blows it again as badly as they did the last time, they won't even be able to get elected dog catcher for a generation. And by that time we'll be pretty well screwed.

they were not just liberal lite, they were far left liberal in their government expansion and government reach....again in my opinion.

But GOOD to see you recognize that they could mess up again and honestly, the odds are they will mess up again.

As for wouldn't the nation run on conservative principles be wonderful, it pretty much did up to Teddy Roosevelt. It has been slowly unraveling ever since. Until then we had made America the fastest growing, most prosperous, most innovative, most inventive, most productive, most generous, and biggest economy in the world, we had the best educated and biggest middle class in the world, Mom could stay home with the kids if she wanted to, and there was nothing but bright futures ahead of everybody. We had corrected most of our worst faults and had room for everybody to prosper.

those were the good ole days, not because of conservatism, but because of true Liberalism.

I am enough of an optimist to believe conservative principles would re-create that amazing country and, because we have learned so much in the interim, we could be even bigger and better.

I also believe that mostly liberal principles will keep us on a continuous downward spiral.

Classical Liberal principles will bring us there....





care

 

[Foxfyre]

LOL Care. Honestly if you've been following my posts at all you KNOW how disappointed I have been in the GOP the last eight years or so and that was mostly because they have abandoned so many conservative principles that all conservatives hold dear. And I don't yet trust them to have reformed.

Did they do some things well? Yes they did. Did they do enough well to offset the bad? No they didn't. The Left already hated them and has hated them for a very long time now. So the group that handed them their hat in 2006 and again in 2008 were the conservative and moderate Independents and Republicans.

As I've said time and time again, it simply isn't good enough to just not suck as bad as the other side sucks.

I agree, however, that prior to Teddy Roosevelt, this country was run mostly on the Classical Liberal principles defined by the Founders. The definition of "Classical Liberal" is pretty darn close to Modern American Conservative.

 

[Polk]

Sometimes, just reading the posts on message boards, you would think so. But you know what? Liberals are Americans too. And I think at some level they value their freedom as much as the next person.

But I think liberals really do look to government to cure all of societal ills and, so long as those in government want to force people to do what liberals want them to do, they are all for it. Liberals despise government that supports and promotes or orders what liberals don't support just as much as conservatives do though.

Other than that necessary to secure an defend our rights, Conservatives see all government authority as dangerous to personal freedoms and the American way and don't want government forcing people to do much of anything even if it is something conservatives would like to see happen. The price for that is simply too high. Secure and defend our rights, enforce the laws necessary to do that, and do what governments do to promote the general welfare--meaning equally for everybody--and then just stop. Don't do any more. Let the people govern themselves and create the kind of society they want to have.

You're protecting your worldview on to others against, except it's liberals this time and not the Founding Fathers. Just because you think the government is the source of all problems in the world does not mean people who disagree with you think the government is the cure for all problems.

I wonder if its safe to say that only a tunnel visioned liberal would say that I have ever even remotely hinted that government is the source of all the problems in the world. Hyperbole much?

And the word you're looking for is 'project' instead of 'protect', but the conclusion you drew there is just as exaggerated.

But you know what? If you find my world view so objectionable, I would sincerely invite you to just put me on ignore and not read my posts. I'm sure you would be much happier and might even be able to convnce yourself there is no world view such as mine.

Yeah, you've never made a typo ever (which I had edited before you ever replied to the post), but to stick to the topic at hand.

I do love that you consider Reagan a "tunnel visioned liberal". Since he said, and this is an exact quote: "Government is the problem". Not "sometimes a source of problems" but "the problem". Singular and absolute.

I don't find your worldview objectionable. I find it shallow and lacking in intellectual vigor. You fall into the same pitfalls most people do. There are people on the other side who are just as wrong when they claim the Founding Fathers really felt the same way they do.

 

[Polk]

Sometimes, just reading the posts on message boards, you would think so. But you know what? Liberals are Americans too. And I think at some level they value their freedom as much as the next person.

But I think liberals really do look to government to cure all of societal ills and, so long as those in government want to force people to do what liberals want them to do, they are all for it. Liberals despise government that supports and promotes or orders what liberals don't support just as much as conservatives do though.

Other than that necessary to secure an defend our rights, Conservatives see all government authority as dangerous to personal freedoms and the American way and don't want government forcing people to do much of anything even if it is something conservatives would like to see happen. The price for that is simply too high. Secure and defend our rights, enforce the laws necessary to do that, and do what governments do to promote the general welfare--meaning equally for everybody--and then just stop. Don't do any more. Let the people govern themselves and create the kind of society they want to have.

You're projecting your worldview on to others against, except it's liberals this time and not the Founding Fathers. Just because you think the government is the source of all problems in the world does not mean people who disagree with you think the government is the cure for all problems.

Then why is every solution to a problem proposed by liberals bigger government?

It's not.

 

[Care4all]

LOL Care. Honestly if you've been following my posts at all you KNOW how disappointed I have been in the GOP the last eight years or so and that was mostly because they have abandoned so many conservative principles that all conservatives hold dear. And I don't yet trust them to have reformed.

Did they do some things well? Yes they did. Did they do enough well to offset the bad? No they didn't. The Left already hated them and has hated them for a very long time now. So the group that handed them their hat in 2006 and again in 2008 were the conservative and moderate Independents and Republicans.

As I've said time and time again, it simply isn't good enough to just not suck as bad as the other side sucks.

I agree, however, that prior to Teddy Roosevelt, this country was run mostly on the Classical Liberal principles defined by the Founders. The definition of "Classical Liberal" is pretty darn close to Modern American Conservative.

I am happy to see that you were disappointed in them for what they did while in control.

But for the life of me...I don't remember or know of one single thing that they did well or for the good of the people, while in power...if you can enlighten me, then maybe I can contribute more to the conversation....i could have some sort of memory block going on...