Country With the World's Most Successful Education System

[PoliticalChic]

3. I beleive that a return to traditional education in the United States would, contrary to your view, have a salutary effect.

"have a salutary effect?"

you mean "it would be beneficial." To whom?

I apologise, but you're approach is so astonishingly academic it ignores even the most basic problems associated with, "a return to traditional education in the United States" not the least being that there IS NO United States education system.

Now, continue to extrapolate the number of Finnish angels that might dance on the head of a non existant pin.

So, this means what...you have no answer?

 

[Samson]

3. I beleive that a return to traditional education in the United States would, contrary to your view, have a salutary effect.

"have a salutary effect?"

you mean "it would be beneficial." To whom?

I apologise, but you're approach is so astonishingly academic it ignores even the most basic problems associated with, "a return to traditional education in the United States" not the least being that there IS NO United States education system.

Now, continue to extrapolate the number of Finnish angels that might dance on the head of a non existant pin.

So, this means what...you have no answer?

You mean to ask, "you have no alternative to the status quo?"

Are there no Private Schools?

Are there no Charter Schools?

Are there no Online Schools?

Yes, my answer is to allow parents choice, but that's what they have now.

Frankly, if you wish to talk about "Traditional;" education systems would be exactly what the framers of our federal government envisioned it to be: Non-existant. Again, a completely useless application to contemporary educational systems in the USA.

 

[GHook93]

(1) It doesn't foster learning
(2) Schools level of service and education differs so much from where someone lives. Go to the intercity and its chaos
(3) Problem students are not removed from the ones that really want to learn
(4) We don't de a good enough job segregating children by intelligence and behavior regardless of the child's race, religion, where the child lives or how much money the parent's make.

 

[PoliticalChic]

"have a salutary effect?"

you mean "it would be beneficial." To whom?

I apologise, but you're approach is so astonishingly academic it ignores even the most basic problems associated with, "a return to traditional education in the United States" not the least being that there IS NO United States education system.

Now, continue to extrapolate the number of Finnish angels that might dance on the head of a non existant pin.

So, this means what...you have no answer?

You mean to ask, "you have no alternative to the status quo?"

Are there no Private Schools?

Are there no Charter Schools?

Are there no Online Schools?

Yes, my answer is to allow parents choice, but that's what they have now.

Frankly, if you wish to talk about "Traditional;" education systems would be exactly what the framers of our federal government envisioned it to be: Non-existant. Again, a completely useless application to contemporary educational systems in the USA.

People who straddle the fence get splinters.

"Yes, my answer is to allow parents choice, but that's what they have now. "

That's like saying anyone can have a RollsRoyce.

True, but untrue. Too nuanced?

Private schools in my town start at about $25,000 to $30,000.

The number of Charter schools are severly curtailed by law.

I use an online school for my children, but it requires a financial commitment.

Democrats block real choice, as in vouchers.

Free, public education is traditional in America.

Choice should extend to methodology.

Definition of traditional is not what you have declared it to be. It actually involves testing, ranking, competition, and repetition. I completely reputiate your statement as to being a "completely useless application."

 

[xsited1]

thisisFINLAND: Facts: Education & research

All Finnish kids address their teachers by their first names, as the students at Helsinki's Strömberg School do, but many other aspects of education at this school can be considered progressive no matter where you're from.

Finland is the size of a large American city, has a stable family unit, and has zero racial diversity. If you put a bunch of similar and like-minded people together, that's what you get. Based on your link, I would propose that we remove everyone from the United States who isn't a member of the majority.

 

[Samson]

So, this means what...you have no answer?

You mean to ask, "you have no alternative to the status quo?"

Are there no Private Schools?

Are there no Charter Schools?

Are there no Online Schools?

Yes, my answer is to allow parents choice, but that's what they have now.

Frankly, if you wish to talk about "Traditional;" education systems would be exactly what the framers of our federal government envisioned it to be: Non-existant. Again, a completely useless application to contemporary educational systems in the USA.

People who straddle the fence get splinters.

Coulter said this, right?

"Yes, my answer is to allow parents choice, but that's what they have now. "

That's like saying anyone can have a RollsRoyce.

True, but untrue. Too nuanced?

Really, I don't think its anymore nuanced than any other comparison you've conjured.

Its like saying anyone can have a Chevy.

Private schools in my town start at about $25,000 to $30,000.

The number of Charter schools are severly curtailed by law.

I use an online school for my children, but it requires a financial commitment.

Democrats block real choice, as in vouchers.

Isn't entreuperniership also an American Tradition? Although it pains me to hear "the heartbeat-by-heartbeat recitation of your life," perhaps you should start your own, affordable, private school in your town. Or, start lobbying for your very own Charter School. You could call it "The PoliticalChic Finnishing School." Online school is an affordable choice for you.......but, you probably drive a Chevy.

Free, public education is traditional in America.

Um....really? This is an astonishing revelation since it didn't exist for the majority of American history.

 

[PoliticalChic]

You mean to ask, "you have no alternative to the status quo?"

Are there no Private Schools?

Are there no Charter Schools?

Are there no Online Schools?

Yes, my answer is to allow parents choice, but that's what they have now.

Frankly, if you wish to talk about "Traditional;" education systems would be exactly what the framers of our federal government envisioned it to be: Non-existant. Again, a completely useless application to contemporary educational systems in the USA.

Coulter said this, right?



Really, I don't think its anymore nuanced than any other comparison you've conjured.

Its like saying anyone can have a Chevy.



Isn't entreuperniership also an American Tradition? Although it pains me to hear "the heartbeat-by-heartbeat recitation of your life," perhaps you should start your own, affordable, private school in your town. Or, start lobbying for your very own Charter School. You could call it "The PoliticalChic Finnishing School." Online school is an affordable choice for you.......but, you probably drive a Chevy.

Free, public education is traditional in America.

Um....really? This is an astonishing revelation since it didn't exist for the majority of American history.

Coulter? Chevy? "The PoliticalChic Finnishing School." What could be the provenance of this babble?

Did I hurt your feelings with the "the heartbeat-by-heartbeat recitation of your life," comment?

Perhaps it was my way of saying that your original posts were better than the latter.

OK, I take it back. (Fist bump)


[Public education]: "it didn't exist for the majority of American history."

Really?

"The most preliminary form of public education was in existence in the 1600s in the New England colonies of Massachusetts, Connecticut and New Hampshire...After the Declaration of Independence, 14 states had their own constitutions by 1791, and out of the 14, 7 states had specific provisions for education..."
A History of Public Education In The United States

 

[Samson]

Coulter? Chevy? "The PoliticalChic Finnishing School." What could be the provenance of this babble?

Did I hurt your feelings with the "the heartbeat-by-heartbeat recitation of your life," comment?

Perhaps it was my way of saying that your original posts were better than the latter.

OK, I take it back. (Fist bump)


[Public education]: "it didn't exist for the majority of American history."

Really?

"The most preliminary form of public education was in existence in the 1600s in the New England colonies of Massachusetts, Connecticut and New Hampshire...After the Declaration of Independence, 14 states had their own constitutions by 1791, and out of the 14, 7 states had specific provisions for education..."
A History of Public Education In The United States

No, I really have very few negative feelings associated with postings.

You should have read the rest of your article:

The Beginning of the Public Education System
Until the 1840s the education system was highly localized and available only to wealthy people. Reformers who wanted all children to gain the benefits of education opposed this. Prominent among them were Horace Mann in Massachusetts and Henry Barnard in Connecticut. Mann started the publication of the Common School Journal, which took the educational issues to the public. The common-school reformers argued for the case on the belief that common schooling could create good citizens, unite society and prevent crime and poverty. As a result of their efforts, free public education at the elementary level was available for all American children by the end of the 19th century. Massachusetts passed the first compulsory school attendance laws in 1852, followed by New York in 1853. By 1918 all states had passed laws requiring children to attend at least elementary school. The Catholics were, however, opposed to common schooling and created their own private schools. Their decision was supported by the 1925 Supreme Court rule in Pierce v. Society of Sisters that states could not compel children to attend public schools, and that children could attend private schools instead

Compulsory Education has only been a "Tradition" since 1918, and even then it was limited to elementary school.

I also think its interesting to note that the "Traditional" goals of American Education are:

1. create good citizens,
2. unite society and
3. prevent crime and poverty

Odd.


I wonder why they left out "Scoring on standardised tests as well as the Fins?"

 

[PoliticalChic]

Coulter? Chevy? "The PoliticalChic Finnishing School." What could be the provenance of this babble?

Did I hurt your feelings with the "the heartbeat-by-heartbeat recitation of your life," comment?

Perhaps it was my way of saying that your original posts were better than the latter.

OK, I take it back. (Fist bump)


[Public education]: "it didn't exist for the majority of American history."

Really?

"The most preliminary form of public education was in existence in the 1600s in the New England colonies of Massachusetts, Connecticut and New Hampshire...After the Declaration of Independence, 14 states had their own constitutions by 1791, and out of the 14, 7 states had specific provisions for education..."
A History of Public Education In The United States

No, I really have very few negative feelings associated with postings.

You should have read the rest of your article:

The Beginning of the Public Education System
Until the 1840s the education system was highly localized and available only to wealthy people. Reformers who wanted all children to gain the benefits of education opposed this. Prominent among them were Horace Mann in Massachusetts and Henry Barnard in Connecticut. Mann started the publication of the Common School Journal, which took the educational issues to the public. The common-school reformers argued for the case on the belief that common schooling could create good citizens, unite society and prevent crime and poverty. As a result of their efforts, free public education at the elementary level was available for all American children by the end of the 19th century. Massachusetts passed the first compulsory school attendance laws in 1852, followed by New York in 1853. By 1918 all states had passed laws requiring children to attend at least elementary school. The Catholics were, however, opposed to common schooling and created their own private schools. Their decision was supported by the 1925 Supreme Court rule in Pierce v. Society of Sisters that states could not compel children to attend public schools, and that children could attend private schools instead

Compulsory Education has only been a "Tradition" since 1918, and even then it was limited to elementary school.

I also think its interesting to note that the "Traditional" goals of American Education are:

1. create good citizens,
2. unite society and
3. prevent crime and poverty

Odd.


I wonder why they left out "Scoring on standardised tests as well as the Fins?"

Good point about the wealthy.

I guess that eliminates your point that anyone can put their children in private schools.

And as for goals of American education, you are attempting to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat by changing the thrust of the thread.

The goal of education, American or Finn, is educated students.
Traditional education produces same, not progressive education.

 

[Samson]

Coulter? Chevy? "The PoliticalChic Finnishing School." What could be the provenance of this babble?

Did I hurt your feelings with the "the heartbeat-by-heartbeat recitation of your life," comment?

Perhaps it was my way of saying that your original posts were better than the latter.

OK, I take it back. (Fist bump)


[Public education]: "it didn't exist for the majority of American history."

Really?

"The most preliminary form of public education was in existence in the 1600s in the New England colonies of Massachusetts, Connecticut and New Hampshire...After the Declaration of Independence, 14 states had their own constitutions by 1791, and out of the 14, 7 states had specific provisions for education..."
A History of Public Education In The United States

No, I really have very few negative feelings associated with postings.

You should have read the rest of your article:

The Beginning of the Public Education System
Until the 1840s the education system was highly localized and available only to wealthy people. Reformers who wanted all children to gain the benefits of education opposed this. Prominent among them were Horace Mann in Massachusetts and Henry Barnard in Connecticut. Mann started the publication of the Common School Journal, which took the educational issues to the public. The common-school reformers argued for the case on the belief that common schooling could create good citizens, unite society and prevent crime and poverty. As a result of their efforts, free public education at the elementary level was available for all American children by the end of the 19th century. Massachusetts passed the first compulsory school attendance laws in 1852, followed by New York in 1853. By 1918 all states had passed laws requiring children to attend at least elementary school. The Catholics were, however, opposed to common schooling and created their own private schools. Their decision was supported by the 1925 Supreme Court rule in Pierce v. Society of Sisters that states could not compel children to attend public schools, and that children could attend private schools instead

Compulsory Education has only been a "Tradition" since 1918, and even then it was limited to elementary school.

I also think its interesting to note that the "Traditional" goals of American Education are:

1. create good citizens,
2. unite society and
3. prevent crime and poverty

Odd.


I wonder why they left out "Scoring on standardised tests as well as the Fins?"

Good point about the wealthy.

I guess that eliminates your point that anyone can put their children in private schools.

And as for goals of American education, you are attempting to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat by changing the thrust of the thread.

The goal of education, American or Finn, is educated students.
Traditional education produces same, not progressive education.

No, anyone can put their children in private schools. Many private schools offer a thing called a "scholorship." Or, anyone can earn 25,000/yr, and PAY.

I'm only using the source of information you so helpfully found to note that the "traditional goals" of education went far beyond learning to read while watching movies with Finnish subtitles.

"Uniting Society"....hmmmmm......it almost sounds........"progressive!"

 

[PoliticalChic]

No, I really have very few negative feelings associated with postings.

You should have read the rest of your article:



Compulsory Education has only been a "Tradition" since 1918, and even then it was limited to elementary school.

I also think its interesting to note that the "Traditional" goals of American Education are:

1. create good citizens,
2. unite society and
3. prevent crime and poverty

Odd.


I wonder why they left out "Scoring on standardised tests as well as the Fins?"

Good point about the wealthy.

I guess that eliminates your point that anyone can put their children in private schools.

And as for goals of American education, you are attempting to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat by changing the thrust of the thread.

The goal of education, American or Finn, is educated students.
Traditional education produces same, not progressive education.

No, anyone can put their children in private schools. Many private schools offer a thing called a "scholorship." Or, anyone can earn 25,000/yr, and PAY.

I'm only using the source of information you so helpfully found to note that the "traditional goals" of education went far beyond learning to read while watching movies with Finnish subtitles.

"Uniting Society"....hmmmmm......it almost sounds........"progressive!"

"scholorship." ? Scholarship is lacking.

Is your point that progressive education is efficacious?

If not your post is vacuous.

 

[Samson]

Is your point that progressive education is efficacious?

If not your post is vacuous.

My point is that "PoliticalChic's Finnishing School" was a great pun, and that my sense of humor is wasted on you.

 

[Zander]

It is a fishbowl. There are more students in the Los Angeles Unified School District than in the entire nation of Finland. 98% of the students in Finland are Finnish and speak the language. The LAUSD has 65% English speakers......
Connect the dots

 

[PoliticalChic]

Is your point that progressive education is efficacious?

If not your post is vacuous.

My point is that "PoliticalChic's Finnishing School" was a great pun, and that my sense of humor is wasted on you.

Good one!

 

[Harry Dresden]

Not sure what that has to do with anything.

Because students come here without speaking English isn't dragging down our students. They do that on their own with video games and parents who feed them Nachos and let them endlessly watch TV and who rarely are involved in their children's lives. Add the right who want to teach the occult as an "alternative" to science and you have our modern day educational system.

hey Dean.....come to California.....this is and has been one of the bigger problems in the grade schools for quite some time.....it was a problem at my sons school when he was in grade school....and he is 30 now.....and according to the mothers with grade schoolers now....it still is....and grade school is were these kids have got to learn the basics.....

Sorry, I'm not feeling it. Because other students speak Spanish your son's grades suffer?
Did he even like school?

here Dean see if you feel this....in many of the grade schools around were i an at it is like this or worse......
remember California was in the top 5 in 1967-69....now number 48.....

VDARE.com: 06/02/05 - How Do You Say "The Cat Sat On The Mat" In Spanish?

 

[Harry Dresden]

It is a fishbowl. There are more students in the Los Angeles Unified School District than in the entire nation of Finland. 98% of the students in Finland are Finnish and speak the language. The LAUSD has 65% English speakers......
Connect the dots

and this is what i am trying to tell Rdean.....35% dont speak the language,mostly in the grade schools,and it slows the other kids down....i have ALOT of teachers who live on my route,and the grade schoolers have told me they are teaching 2 sets of kids,one in English the other in Spanish,if they dont know Spanish,a translator is there to translate....and this is grade school.....immerse them in English and a little kid will learn the language faster than a grownup.....the Latino activist say no....unfair to the Spanish Speakers,it will take them longer to get through school.....but its ok to slow the English speakers down .....more Political correct bullshit.....

 

[Samson]

It is a fishbowl. There are more students in the Los Angeles Unified School District than in the entire nation of Finland. 98% of the students in Finland are Finnish and speak the language. The LAUSD has 65% English speakers......
Connect the dots

and this is what i am trying to tell Rdean.....35% dont speak the language,mostly in the grade schools,and it slows the other kids down....i have ALOT of teachers who live on my route,and the grade schoolers have told me they are teaching 2 sets of kids,one in English the other in Spanish,if they dont know Spanish,a translator is there to translate....and this is grade school.....immerse them in English and a little kid will learn the language faster than a grownup.....the Latino activist say no....unfair to the Spanish Speakers,it will take them longer to get through school.....but its ok to slow the English speakers down .....more Political correct bullshit.....

Well, I'll tell ya, just from my experience, it doesn't really slow down the other students. But I taught Math, and had my frequently useless, but well-meaning Spanish Translator Aid, and, if necessary, also the Special Education Aid to assist. You just learn to try to teach as many kids as you can, but realistically, a few will "slip through the cracks." Teachers that knock themselves out believing they will teach EVERY STUDENT, EVERY DAY, soon learn they should have gotten their MRS Degree, and married some Taiwenese Electrical Engineering Student when they had the chance.

 

[Harry Dresden]

It is a fishbowl. There are more students in the Los Angeles Unified School District than in the entire nation of Finland. 98% of the students in Finland are Finnish and speak the language. The LAUSD has 65% English speakers......
Connect the dots

and this is what i am trying to tell Rdean.....35% dont speak the language,mostly in the grade schools,and it slows the other kids down....i have ALOT of teachers who live on my route,and the grade schoolers have told me they are teaching 2 sets of kids,one in English the other in Spanish,if they dont know Spanish,a translator is there to translate....and this is grade school.....immerse them in English and a little kid will learn the language faster than a grownup.....the Latino activist say no....unfair to the Spanish Speakers,it will take them longer to get through school.....but its ok to slow the English speakers down .....more Political correct bullshit.....

Well, I'll tell ya, just from my experience, it doesn't really slow down the other students. But I taught Math, and had my frequently useless, but well-meaning Spanish Translator Aid, and, if necessary, also the Special Education Aid to assist. You just learn to try to teach as many kids as you can, but realistically, a few will "slip through the cracks." Teachers that knock themselves out believing they will teach EVERY STUDENT, EVERY DAY, soon learn they should have gotten their MRS Degree, and married some Taiwenese Electrical Engineering Student when they had the chance.

and what grade did you teach if i may ask?.......

 

[Samson]

and this is what i am trying to tell Rdean.....35% dont speak the language,mostly in the grade schools,and it slows the other kids down....i have ALOT of teachers who live on my route,and the grade schoolers have told me they are teaching 2 sets of kids,one in English the other in Spanish,if they dont know Spanish,a translator is there to translate....and this is grade school.....immerse them in English and a little kid will learn the language faster than a grownup.....the Latino activist say no....unfair to the Spanish Speakers,it will take them longer to get through school.....but its ok to slow the English speakers down .....more Political correct bullshit.....

Well, I'll tell ya, just from my experience, it doesn't really slow down the other students. But I taught Math, and had my frequently useless, but well-meaning Spanish Translator Aid, and, if necessary, also the Special Education Aid to assist. You just learn to try to teach as many kids as you can, but realistically, a few will "slip through the cracks." Teachers that knock themselves out believing they will teach EVERY STUDENT, EVERY DAY, soon learn they should have gotten their MRS Degree, and married some Taiwenese Electrical Engineering Student when they had the chance.

and what grade did you teach if i may ask?.......

Above, I'm refering to teaching 8th grade in a middle school that had 12 caucasion students among 600 black and hispanic students. 76% of the school qualified as "Title I" (economically disadvantaged enough to recieve free and reduced lunch/breakfast).

 

[bodecea]

The Finnish government keeps the pressure on students to a point that they complain of a lack of fun at school. At the same time, there are no nationwide exams or even final tests. There is continuous assessment -- a mixture of monthly tests and teacher evaluations

This is the secret source of Finnish success.
The school pushes the students.
It is tough.
NO cakewalk social promotion bull here.
Hence, students learn.

Unfortunately, and I have seen it again and again, schools cannot retain without the parent's permission. Schools cannot retain more than once in a K-12 time period.

There needs to be a secondary, perhaps vocational oriented place for them to go...with or without parental permission.