Corporate American Ideology Will Be Defeated

[rtwngAvngr]

So we 'suspect' France, Germany, Russia, etc.' by whose standards?

Moral relativism is unbecoming on you, kat. I'm talking about child and prison labor or sweatshop conditions in china.

The mask is off the necons, and it's ugly. Yes. The baby is ugly.


Who's standards? Our standards. It's sad to see intelligent people be so devoted to evil.

 

[dilloduck]

I agree that placing morality ahead of freedom is the key to conservative goals--it's also the key to liberal goals. Both sides would have you believe that they know what the moral path is better than you know it, and they promise they will keep you on it for your own good and the good of society--even if it kills you.

The thing is, morality is not decided, created, or validated by such coersion. If your morality is such that others will not willingly subscribe to it, but rather you must decide and force it upon them at gunpoint, at the threat of a bomb, or by rounding up those who disagree and executing them, by hijacking a plane and crashing it into a building, or by any other authoritarian power ponzi scheme, your morality is suspect. Freedom doesn't mean morality, and it doesn't guarantee morality, and it doesn't make morality--it just makes morality possible. You must be free to choose good, and there is no morality at all without that freedom--when you give up your freedom, you're giving up all the morality made possible by it.

How can you possibly NOT be free to choose ?

 

[BaronVonBigmeat]

Right. And we shoud CHOOSE not to trade with nations that use suspect business practices, such as child or prison labor, or sweatshop conditions.

Nobody is forcing you to choose chinese products.

Or by "choose", do you mean "use taxpayer dollars to send jackbooted thugs to interfere in voluntary exchange between americans and chinese"?

The idea that america has a messianic duty to forcibly police the entire world and bring about god's kingdom at the point of a gun is pure socialist, Wilsonian, State-worshipping trash. It's an idea that gained a serious following when it was first put forth by the progressive movement. Other goals of the progressives (eugenics, prohibition) have been scrapped and are now in the dust bin of history. Let's hope that foreign interventionism joins them as soon as possible.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Nobody is forcing you to choose chinese products.

Or by "choose", do you mean "use taxpayer dollars to send jackbooted thugs to interfere in voluntary exchange between americans and chinese"?

The idea that america has a messianic duty to forcibly police the entire world and bring about god's kingdom at the point of a gun is pure socialist, Wilsonian, State-worshipping trash. It's an idea that gained a serious following when it was first put forth by the progressive movement. Other goals of the progressives (eugenics, prohibition) have been scrapped and are now in the dust bin of history. Let's hope that foreign interventionism joins them as soon as possible.

An embargo requires no thugs. It's part of how we have traditionally defeated enemies. The insanity and immorality is pretending untold wealth will change the totalitarian chinese.

The New World ORder crowd is using china to corner the world market in trade, while encouraging all other countries to abandon their own morality in a deathrace to the bottom. The goal of communism has always been hegemony and totalitarianism. They've ripped off the lie and are just going to that through straight-up corporate fascism.

 

[LOki]

How can you possibly NOT be free to choose ?

How can you possibly NOT grasp how coersion functions?

 

[LOki]

The idea that america has a messianic duty to forcibly police the entire world and bring about god's kingdom at the point of a gun is pure socialist, Wilsonian, State-worshipping trash.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to BaronVonBigmeat again.

 

[LOki]

The New World ORder crowd is using china to corner the world market in trade, while encouraging all other countries to abandon their own morality in a deathrace to the bottom. The goal of communism has always been hegemony and totalitarianism. They've ripped off the lie and are just going to that through straight-up corporate fascism.

The kernel of truth in this RWA, is the point in NOT cutting economic ties with China. Socialism and Fascism are certainly enemies to each other, but they share the same statist moral premisis. And you are right that socialists will join up with fascists, fascists will join up with socialists, for the purposes of wiping out that moral foundation that is most repugnant and antithetical to their goals--liberty.

We are morally wrong to adopt their bullshit tactics, because their bullshit tactics are morally wrong. We are tactically wrong to adopt their bullshit tactics, because their bullshit tactics are ultimately ineffective. We cannot validly become socialists or fascists, adopting their moral standards and tactics, under the premise that we are against being socialists or fascists--adopting their bullshit standards and tactics defies reason.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

The kernel of truth in this RWA, is the point in NOT cutting economic ties with China.

NO. We SHOULD cut ties with them.

Socialism and Fascism are certainly enemies to each other, but they share the same statist moral premisis.

Thus they are not enemies but are the same, both being paths to oppression.

And you are right that socialists will join up with fascists, fascists will join up with socialists, for the purposes of wiping out that moral foundation that is most repugnant and antithetical to their goals--liberty.

And in this they are just different tactics to oppress liberty, and not enemies, but the same anti-individual, and thus anti-human, thing.

We are morally wrong to adopt their bullshit tactics, because their bullshit tactics are morally wrong. We are tactically wrong to adopt their bullshit tactics, because their bullshit tactics are ultimately ineffective. We cannot validly become socialists or fascists, adopting their moral standards and tactics, under the premise that we are against being socialists or fascists--adopting their bullshit standards and tactics defies reason.

This part is right on. Competing with them economically, operating under the illusion that we can possibly win without abandoning are own moral standards, is THE BIG LIE.

 

[dilloduck]

How can you possibly NOT grasp how coersion functions?

You still choose---you choose life or death.

 

[LOki]

The kernel of truth in this RWA, is the point in NOT cutting economic ties with China.

NO. We SHOULD cut ties with them.

You have already stated this. We are all aware that you say, "We SHOULD cut [economic] ties with them." I predict you will say it over and over again, as if repeition will verify the validity of this assertion--it will not.

Socialism and Fascism are certainly enemies to each other, but they share the same statist moral premisis.

Thus they are not enemies but are the same, both being paths to oppression.

Sharing goals, and sharing requirements, and sharing moral premises does NOT make them the same, and does not preclude them from being enemies. The animosity between fascists and socialists is well documented.

And you are right that socialists will join up with fascists, fascists will join up with socialists, for the purposes of wiping out that moral foundation that is most repugnant and antithetical to their goals--liberty.

And in this they are just different tactics to oppress liberty, and not enemies, but the same anti-individual, and thus anti-human, thing.

While correct in the assertion that they are anti-human, and oppressors of liberty, they are not the same--they are quite different. That they will momentarily set aside their differences underscores the threat that liberty poses to them though.

We are morally wrong to adopt their bullshit tactics, because their bullshit tactics are morally wrong. We are tactically wrong to adopt their bullshit tactics, because their bullshit tactics are ultimately ineffective. We cannot validly become socialists or fascists, adopting their moral standards and tactics, under the premise that we are against being socialists or fascists--adopting their bullshit standards and tactics defies reason.

This part is right on. Competing with them economically, operating under the illusion that we can possibly win without abandoning are own moral standards, is THE BIG LIE.

These practioners of fasism and socialism can hope for momentary gains, but the very nature of their moral premisis is self-destructive, and every example eventually implodes upon itself when in contact with freer markets. The BIG LIE is that good moral principles are weaker, less effective, and at a disadvantage to bad moral principles, and thus bad moral principles must be adopted to win--this is the BIG LIE that socialists and fascists disseminate. Those that ignore reality and embrace that lie are ready to surrender liberty; to capitulate to the supremacy of evil without a fight, and turn against good and free men, to enslave them "for their own good, and the greater good of society."

 

[LOki]

You must be free to choose good, and there is no morality at all without that freedom--when you give up your freedom, you're giving up all the morality made possible by it.

How can you possibly NOT be free to choose ?

How can you possibly NOT grasp how coercion functions?

You still choose---you choose life or death.

Let's put an end to this mystical rhetoric derived from the insipid and disingenuous naive posing that you are so fond of.

Your argument regarding coercion is invalid, because coercion is not about YOU choosing death; is it? Jumping from a building, one is not coerced by gravity to fall, one is not coerced by hitting the sidewalk to have one's brains dashed across an acre of pavement; having one's brains dashed dashed across an acre of pavement allows little room for any consequence but death, yet this is not coercion because you were not killed by someone else who offered you the false dilemma of "obey me or I will kill you."

 

[dilloduck]

Let's put an end to this mystical rhetoric derived from the insipid and disingenuous naive posing that you are so fond of.

Your argument regarding coercion is invalid, because coercion is not about YOU choosing death; is it? Jumping from a building, one is not coerced by gravity to fall, one is not coerced by hitting the sidewalk to have one's brains dashed across an acre of pavement; having one's brains dashed dashed across an acre of pavement allows little room for any consequence but death, yet this is not coercion because you were not killed by someone else who offered you the false dilemma of "obey me or I will kill you."

So where did I lose my free will in this process?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

You have already stated this. We are all aware that you say, "We SHOULD cut [economic] ties with them." I predict you will say it over and over again, as if repeition will verify the validity of this assertion--it will not.

Sharing goals, and sharing requirements, and sharing moral premises does NOT make them the same, and does not preclude them from being enemies. The animosity between fascists and socialists is well documented.

While correct in the assertion that they are anti-human, and oppressors of liberty, they are not the same--they are quite different. That they will momentarily set aside their differences underscores the threat that liberty poses to them though.

These practioners of fasism and socialism can hope for momentary gains, but the very nature of their moral premisis is self-destructive, and every example eventually implodes upon itself when in contact with freer markets. The BIG LIE is that good moral principles are weaker, less effective, and at a disadvantage to bad moral principles, and thus bad moral principles must be adopted to win--this is the BIG LIE that socialists and fascists disseminate. Those that ignore reality and embrace that lie are ready to surrender liberty; to capitulate to the supremacy of evil without a fight, and turn against good and free men, to enslave them "for their own good, and the greater good of society."

I belive good wins, ultimately, but totalitarians should be boycotted and embargoed, not empowered through trade, hoping they will change.

You seem to agree with me on most of this, yet you offer no real reason as why we should keep trading with them.

And fascism and socialism only differ on tactics, both are totalitarians. Probably you're getting confused because in any given instance of time two competing totalitarian factions are squaring against off each other, one using one tactic, on the other. But both are evil, and enemies of the good, thus, the good man sees they are both the same, they are both paths towards the empowerment of evil.

 

[LOki]

So where did I lose my free will in this process?

How is one's will, when constrained by force of another, free?

If one's will is free, dilloduck, what is it free from?

 

[LOki]

I belive good wins, ultimately, but totalitarians should be boycotted and embargoed, not empowered through trade, hoping they will change.

Totalitarians are not empowered through trade--the use of force is what empowers them. Free trade rejects the use of force to establish market share, and to the degree that totalitarians engage in trade, is the degree to which their power-base in force is diminished.

You seem to agree with me on most of this, yet you offer no real reason as why we should keep trading with them.

The reasons we should trade with China are the same reasons we should trade with anyone else. But to be more accurate, I am not advocating that we should trade with China, I'm only saying that we should not restrict free trade with China.

Making socialists and fascists of ourselves is no way to punish China.

And fascism and socialism only differ on tactics, both are totalitarians. Probably you're getting confused because in any given instance of time two competing totalitarian factions are squaring against off each other, one using one tactic, on the other. But both are evil, and enemies of the good, thus, the good man sees they are both the same, they are both paths towards the empowerment of evil.

I am not confused.

Meat and potatos are both food, and are paths to nourishment, but they are different. The perceptive man is capable of distinguishing between meat and potatos, based on their difference. The intelligent man is capable of understanding that they can be both food, and different.

Accepting the assertion that socialism and fascism are moral equivalents does not require one to accept them to be the same thing. And I don't.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Competing with them economically, operating under the illusion that we can possibly win without abandoning are own moral standards, is THE BIG LIE.

Yea, and what happens if we LOSE the economic competition?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Yea, and what happens if we LOSE the economic competition?

If we pull out now, it will be a shock for us, but it will be worse for the totalitarians. We are more innovative on an individual basis. Their people must be told what to do, and will not be innovative enough. We don't lose, if we don't engage.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Totalitarians are not empowered through trade--the use of force is what empowers them. Free trade rejects the use of force to establish market share, and to the degree that totalitarians engage in trade, is the degree to which their power-base in force is diminished.

Absolutely wrong. The chinese totalitarian thugs take their piece of whatever money is made by the corporations. Fascists ARE empowered through our trade support. Their power base is not eroded, they still do exactly whatever they please.

The reasons we should trade with China are the same reasons we should trade with anyone else. But to be more accurate, I am not advocating that we should trade with China, I'm only saying that we should not restrict free trade with China.

I believe we should restrict trade with china, until they have western style civil rights and coroprate laws regarding foreign investment.

Making socialists and fascists of ourselves is no way to punish China.

No ones advocating that. NOT trading with enemy nations doesn't make us socialists or fascists, though in other threads it has been suggested that "we must do xyz to compete with china" this is the satanic advice that will be the mantra of the slow ride to the nwo. Liars like to pretend that simply refusing to trade with them or their partners is not an option. It obviously is. We live in a world of unlimited possibilities. There is no fate.

I am not confused.

Meat and potatos are both food, and are paths to nourishment, but they are different. The perceptive man is capable of distinguishing between meat and potatos, based on their difference. The intelligent man is capable of understanding that they can be both food, and different.

Accepting the assertion that socialism and fascism are moral equivalents does not require one to accept them to be the same thing. And I don't.

Both are undesirable, and thus equally bad, though technically not the same, as you posit.

 

[LOki]

Absolutely wrong. The chinese totalitarian thugs take their piece of whatever money is made by the corporations.

Which is disadvantageous to those Chinese corporations--or do you wish to present contrary evidence?

Fascists ARE empowered through our trade support. Their power base is not eroded, they still do exactly whatever they please.

Fascists can't be empowered by participation in free markets unless the other participants agree to their totalitarian principles (like yours) of marketing. Fascists, and socialists both, must relinquish the coercive prinicple of their morality in order to paricipate, and have their countrymen participate in a free market.

I believe we should restrict trade with china, until they have western style civil rights and coroprate laws regarding foreign investment.

You would be the totalitarian against totalitarianism, yes?

No ones advocating that.

You are. Quite emphatically. And repeatedly, without argumentative support, consitent with your presentation of unfounded opinion as fact idiom.

NOT trading with enemy nations doesn't make us socialists or fascists, though in other threads it has been suggested that "we must do xyz to compete with china" this is the satanic advice that will be the mantra of the slow ride to the nwo.

We need only stand by the moral principles of liberty to compete with China. To do otherwise is the retarded advice that is the mantra of YOUR World Order.

Liars like to pretend that simply refusing to trade with them or their partners is not an option. It obviously is. We live in a world of unlimited possibilities. There is no fate.

Yet there is still your totalitarian affirmation of coercive force, and your denial that it is not totalitarian in nature.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Which is disadvantageous to those Chinese corporations--or do you wish to present contrary evidence?

The low wages, devalued currency and favored nation status are obviously making up for whatever they must kick to the commie bosses.

Fascists can't be empowered by participation in free markets unless the other participants agree to their totalitarian principles (like yours) of marketing.

The chinese ones are. Do you think the communist party is not getting anything from all the business in china? You're delusional.

Fascists, and socialists both, must relinquish the coercive prinicple of their morality in order to paricipate, and have their countrymen participate in a free market.

The market is very much an export market for them, who knows what rights the workers actually have.

You would be the totalitarian against totalitarianism, yes?

are you shootin or smokin?

You are. Quite emphatically. And repeatedly, without argumentative support, consitent with your presentation of unfounded opinion as fact idiom.

bla blah. blah blahblahblah. blah blahblahblahblah, blahblah blahblahblahblah blah blah, blahblahblah blah blah blahblahblahblah blah blahblahblah blahblahblah blah blahblahblah.

We need only stand by the moral principles of liberty to compete with China. To do otherwise is the retarded advice that is the mantra of YOUR World Order.

How can free workers compete with slaves?

Yet there is still your toatlitarian affirmation of coercive force, and your denial that it is not totalitarian in nature.

Stopping trade with china requires no coercive force. What are talking about?