Confederate Flag: Symbol of ?

[sakinago]

The "Stars and Bars" has been used prominently at KKK rallies and segregationist political events and demonstrations to this day. To southern whites it is the "Flag of Resistance" defying not only blacks but also northerners. Check the video archives of any southern TV station and this becomes obvious. This is still the meaning most connected to it by southern whites today.

I grew up in Texas, I now live in the suburbs of philly. I never saw the KKK in my 11 years in Texas, or heard one racist comment. In between Texas and PA I lived in upstate New York, where I heard my first black joke and many others. Now, 30 mins away from philly, I kid you not there is a loud and proud KKK clan of about 50 members. So from my perspective the north is more racist than the south. I also see way too many confederate flags up here, its ridiculous. My point is I think its all relative to where you live. Im sure there are racist parts of Texas, I just havnt seen them, In the burbs of philly I know of 2 towns that have a KKK chapter, so the north isnt as innocent as everyone thinks, nor is 90% of the south like the movie deliverance.

As to what the flag means, for most people at least, is a symbol that the southern way of life is better than the northen way of life. After all, those damn yanks are always in a hurry off to nowhere.

 

[oldfart]

I grew up in Texas, I now live in the suburbs of philly. I never saw the KKK in my 11 years in Texas, or heard one racist comment.... Im sure there are racist parts of Texas, I just havnt seen them,

My brother has lived in East Texas (Tyler) for over 50 years and his three sons grew up in Texas. One teaches history in Tyler, a second works and lives in Tyler, and the third lives in Houston. You are correct that Texas contains a lot of different regions and cultures. East Texas is clearly part of the South.

In the burbs of philly I know of 2 towns that have a KKK chapter, so the north isnt as innocent as everyone thinks, nor is 90% of the south like the movie deliverance.

Yep, there is a lot of racism in the North too. Like hating Jews, Catholics, and gays, anybody can join in. But if you come by, I'll be happy to show you parts of the South that are still just like Deliverance.

As to what the flag means, for most people at least, is a symbol that the southern way of life is better than the northen way of life. After all, those damn yanks are always in a hurry off to nowhere.

We must not hang out in the same kind of bars. I think you got the state department of tourism schtick.

 

[William Joyce]

Truth is that the Confederate Flag is a symbol of white resistance, no matter how much its typical defender denies any racial connotation. "Heritage" and "regional pride" are kinda crappy excuses... who's proud of a latitude?

That said, why can't whites show a little resistance? Lord knows nobody gets huffy about the Puerto Rican flag, the Israeli flag, etc.

 

[Missourian]

It is very difficult to put into words that a non-southerner would understand.

The closest thing you could use as reference is if have pride in your state.

Southerners are proud of their heritage.

Slavery was wrong, we all understand that, but it was the norm of the day.

Do you shun the American Flag over the genocide of the American Indians? Or do have pride in your country despite it's shortcomings.

Hi, you have received -444 reputation points from Missourian.
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Comment:
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Regards,
Missourian

First I believe that Mississippi where I have lived most of my adult life, is about culturally southern as you can get. So try again carpetbagger! At least Missouri had the good sense to not succeed from the Union in 1861. Learn your own state history and find out where others are from before you start making assumptions about their residence and culture.

My attitudes toward our First Nations is that I have been guests in their homes, as they have been in mine, and their patriotism is as great as any group in America and obviously far greater than yours. If you ever attend a dance competition, as what the qualifications are to perform a flag dance.

If slavery was wrong, why do you cling to its symbols of hatred, bigotry, and repression? Maybe it comes with playing the bully. Neg rep me all you want; I have a life outside of this board and frankly don't care what my rep numbers are. It's rather pathetic that you think I will be "hurt" by your childish action.

Firstly, you are butthurt, crying and whining about neg rep.

Please, dry up, it's unseemly.

Secondly, I know my states history...you do not.

Missouri DID succeed from the Union after General Nathaniel Lyon illegally captured Jefferson City and ousted the duly elected government of the state.

 

[konradv]

Clean Debate Zone The Clean Debate Zone is to be used for the clean debating of Government Policies, Candidates, Current News and Events ONLY. No personal attacks, name calling, flaming etc is allowed in this section.

So is neg repping. I know, because I got called on it for negging someone who posted a personal attack. I guess you're just supposed to report them.

 

[emilynghiem]

Speaking as a lifelong Californian, I see a great dichotomy in the perception of the Confederate Flag between White and Black Americans. For my Black friends, it seems to be a symbol of slavery, segregation, discrimination and racism. For my White friends, it is a symbol of Civil War military battles, moonshine and backwoods shenanigans a la the Dukes of Hazard.

I wonder if these divergent views will ever be reconciled.

This is a well-stated observation, thank you for sharing this.

I think as more people are healed of the pain and suffering that slavery invokes, we won't see as much reactionism against what these same images mean to others historically.

To some, even Hitler was a hero who saved their country from mobs of anarchy and crime in the streets, and at least brought order by govt force although at an unjustifiable price.

I would love if all people could be so healed we could look at things objectively, and even laugh
at jokes together without taking offense at political incorrectness.
When I look at silly shows like Tosh.o some people are able to laugh at things without apology!

If people aren't healed, then such comedy seems as mockery and insulting to people's pain.

But when people are truly healed, then we won't have negative emotions attached to these images or ideas in our minds, so we will be more open to letting people have their own memories and not feel we have to compete or prove anything.

P.S. I take it from your msg you are one such person who doesn't have attachments either way, so you can see both sides and put them both in perspective. That is how I would want all people to be able to do someday. Until then, it means we still have some issues to resolve and heal, so that is good to be reminded so we keep working on that and don't deny it.

 

[Missourian]

Truth is that the Confederate Flag is a symbol of white resistance, no matter how much its typical defender denies any racial connotation. "Heritage" and "regional pride" are kinda crappy excuses... who's proud of a latitude?

That said, why can't whites show a little resistance? Lord knows nobody gets huffy about the Puerto Rican flag, the Israeli flag, etc.

Here we disagree William.

What exactly are whites resisting?

 

[Missourian]

Clean Debate Zone The Clean Debate Zone is to be used for the clean debating of Government Policies, Candidates, Current News and Events ONLY. No personal attacks, name calling, flaming etc is allowed in this section.

So is neg repping. I know, because I got called on it for negging someone who posted a personal attack. I guess you're just supposed to report them.

That's why I negged Oldfart, his personal attack of "BTW where do you get your sheets laundered?". If it is against the rules, I apologize.

 

[emilynghiem]

It is very difficult to put into words that a non-southerner would understand.

The closest thing you could use as reference is if have pride in your state.

Southerners are proud of their heritage.

Slavery was wrong, we all understand that, but it was the norm of the day.

Do you shun the American Flag over the genocide of the American Indians? Or do have pride in your country despite it's shortcomings.

Hi, you have received -444 reputation points from Missourian.
Reputation was given for this post.

Comment:
.

Regards,
Missourian

First I believe that Mississippi where I have lived most of my adult life, is about culturally southern as you can get. So try again carpetbagger! At least Missouri had the good sense to not succeed from the Union in 1861. Learn your own state history and find out where others are from before you start making assumptions about their residence and culture.

My attitudes toward our First Nations is that I have been guests in their homes, as they have been in mine, and their patriotism is as great as any group in America and obviously far greater than yours. If you ever attend a dance competition, as what the qualifications are to perform a flag dance.

If slavery was wrong, why do you cling to its symbols of hatred, bigotry, and repression? Maybe it comes with playing the bully. Neg rep me all you want; I have a life outside of this board and frankly don't care what my rep numbers are. It's rather pathetic that you think I will be "hurt" by your childish action.

Firstly, you are butthurt, crying and whining about neg rep.

Please, dry up, it's unseemly.

Secondly, I know my states history...you do not.

Missouri DID succeed from the Union after General Nathaniel Lyon illegally captured Jefferson City and ousted the duly elected government of the state.

Dear OF and MO:
As one Southern historian pointed out, if it weren't for slavery, we would not have built up the economy and gained the edge in the Industrial Revolution, and advantage that remains to this day. I look at our Founding Fathers from Jefferson to Madison (who was a plantation owner while his wife was a Quaker against slavery), and I wonder how our country could have been built if these founders didn't have slave help to get the nation started, when the same people developing the land were also forming the govt. Back in those days, most slaves were not even owned by their masters but by the banks that mortgaged them like houses; so they could not have been freed any easier than people can just donate a house to a homeless person.

Currently we still depend on Chinese slave labor for all our cheap goods.
We cannot just suddenly stop all slavery and pay everyone minimum wage, or the
economy would crash. We'd have to work out a longterm plan to get to that point.
In the meantime, are we going to slam the historical advantages we have out of guilt?
Or are we going to use what we have to facilitate equal progress and development for all people?

Instead of complaining in shame about the sacrifices that have gone into having the freedoms we have today, we should be focused on how we can use our freedoms and advantages as a nation to get past this historic dependence on slave labor and work
toward sustainable economies and democracies. That is the reason I believe these
sacrifices were made, that one day, the benefits would be shared with the world.

We cannot pay back for all the injustice that goes into the benefits we have.
But we can pay it forward and work to organize resources, especially using free enterprise, to set up local democracies where people can support and govern themselves without the same patterns of oppression and dependency as the class wars over slaves and masters.

We are meant to move forward and do better.

We should be grateful to those who contributed to building this country,
and be willing to resolve debts where these are owed.

There is nothing shameful in working out problems in our history to build solutions instead.
There is both good and bad, and in order to learn from history we should acknowledge both and don't hide either one, as they are both part of the learning curve of social development.

 

[oldfart]

I think as more people are healed of the pain and suffering that slavery invokes, we won't see as much reactionism against what these same images mean to others historically.

That is not going to happen because the symbols of the Confederacy have been appropriated by those who advocate white resistance and supremacy to this day. The same applies to the swastika as a Nazi symbol now used by neo-nazis. These are the flags flown by those who are in prison for murder, arson, and similar crimes based on race. Healing only starts when the violence is repudiated and the racism abandoned.

P.S. I take it from your msg you are one such person who doesn't have attachments either way

To the contrary, I have spent most of my adult life in Mississippi. Racism distorts and harms white southerners as well as black people. It is in the interest of white Southerners to fight it.

 

[William Joyce]

Truth is that the Confederate Flag is a symbol of white resistance, no matter how much its typical defender denies any racial connotation. "Heritage" and "regional pride" are kinda crappy excuses... who's proud of a latitude?

That said, why can't whites show a little resistance? Lord knows nobody gets huffy about the Puerto Rican flag, the Israeli flag, etc.

Here we disagree William.

What exactly are whites resisting?

Their extinction/extermination.

 

[rightwinger]

So what's your point?

The point is simply this

The confederate battle flag was an acceptable symbol of an army in rebellion. Once it was usurped as a symbol of racists to subjugate and oppress blacks, it became an objectionable symbol.
If the people who came to lynch your father did so under a confederate flag, how would you feel about that banner?

The meanings of symbols change over time. The swastika was a religious symbol before it was usurped by the Nazis

 

[Missourian]

To the contrary, I have spent most of my adult life in Mississippi.

...but you're originally from the north...

Here is my question to you...

In 2001, Mississippi held a referendum to remove the Confederate Flag from the Mississippi state flag...it was defeated with 64% of citizens voting to retain the Stars and Bars.


Are 64% of your neighbors racists?

 

[emilynghiem]

I think as more people are healed of the pain and suffering that slavery invokes, we won't see as much reactionism against what these same images mean to others historically.

That is not going to happen because the symbols of the Confederacy have been appropriated by those who advocate white resistance and supremacy to this day. The same applies to the swastika as a Nazi symbol now used by neo-nazis. These are the flags flown by those who are in prison for murder, arson, and similar crimes based on race. Healing only starts when the violence is repudiated and the racism abandoned.

P.S. I take it from your msg you are one such person who doesn't have attachments either way

To the contrary, I have spent most of my adult life in Mississippi. Racism distorts and harms white southerners as well as black people. It is in the interest of white Southerners to fight it.

Dear OF: I applaud your commitment to changing these things. May I recommend an excellent resource for you? The Center for the Healing of Racism offers free training in dialogue facilitation and forums, and a series on how racism affects multiple levels of society and inward and outward thinking. The moderators are well experienced in handling sensitive communities and issues, including the racist injuries related to slavery and native american genocide, which is exceptionally deep and painful to heal. The trick is the healing is an interactive process, and the focus is on helping each person to identify their own hurts first separate from how they feel others are instigating or spreading this. That can be very hard to separate the two levels so we don't keep reacting to what others say and see. The more we can heal inside, we can reach out more; but we can't replace the inner healing with trying to change others we think are causing the problem, that's backwards.

If you have places to introduce the educational outreach work or workshops, I highly recommend the CHR to help open up the dialogue where it has a healing effect on all people. I think their website is http://www.centerhealingracism.org
I have their dialogue guidelines posted online at http://www.houstonprogressive.org

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Ooh! Ooh!!

The Confederacy?

 

[Dissent]

Clean Debate Zone The Clean Debate Zone is to be used for the clean debating of Government Policies, Candidates, Current News and Events ONLY. No personal attacks, name calling, flaming etc is allowed in this section.

Ah! that's why I don't come here much lol...

Oh and I see the flag as a symbol of resistance to tyranny. Every time I see the stars and bars my heart skips a beat and I feel a great sense of joy and pride in my chest....I will NEVER pledge allegiance to the US flag I will always pledge allegiance to the stars and bars.I have to teach my daughter this as well since she is in school now they are ramming this garbage down her throat about pledging allegiance to some country that occupies our country.

 

[rdean]

Speaking as a lifelong Californian, I see a great dichotomy in the perception of the Confederate Flag between White and Black Americans. For my Black friends, it seems to be a symbol of slavery, segregation, discrimination and racism. For my White friends, it is a symbol of Civil War military battles, moonshine and backwoods shenanigans a la the Dukes of Hazard.

I wonder if these divergent views will ever be reconciled.

Oh, Confederate Republicans and African Americans see the flag the same way. Just from opposite sides. Republicans try to take credit for what Republicans did before most of the conservatives left the then conservative Democratic Party in the middle 60's and swelled the ranks of the Republican Party. It's why the KKK and the Aryan Nation see themselves as Republicans. The Republican Party is at least 90% white. It's why they celebrate "Confederate Day or Month" in many southern states. It's why Republicans throw peanuts at a black camera women. Why shirts pop up in Romney rallies saying things like "Put WHITE back in the WHITE House".

 

[Swagger]

Seems more like a symbol of passive discord, in the sense that 'we do things different down here', if you know what I mean. My wife's got a pair of demin hot pants with it emblazoned on both back pockets (she's from N. Carolina).

 

[Dissent]

Speaking as a lifelong Californian, I see a great dichotomy in the perception of the Confederate Flag between White and Black Americans. For my Black friends, it seems to be a symbol of slavery, segregation, discrimination and racism. For my White friends, it is a symbol of Civil War military battles, moonshine and backwoods shenanigans a la the Dukes of Hazard.

I wonder if these divergent views will ever be reconciled.

Oh, Confederate Republicans and African Americans see the flag the same way. Just from opposite sides. Republicans try to take credit for what Republicans did before most of the conservatives left the then conservative Democratic Party in the middle 60's and swelled the ranks of the Republican Party. It's why the KKK and the Aryan Nation see themselves as Republicans. The Republican Party is at least 90% white. It's why they celebrate "Confederate Day or Month" in many southern states. It's why Republicans throw peanuts at a black camera women. Why shirts pop up in Romney rallies saying things like "Put WHITE back in the WHITE House".

Another one that has no idea what the Klan and Aryan Nations is about....why don't you try talking to some of them...they hate both parties...which is why White Nationalists have their own party now.

 

[Missourian]

So what's your point?

The point is simply this

The confederate battle flag was an acceptable symbol of an army in rebellion. Once it was usurped as a symbol of racists to subjugate and oppress blacks, it became an objectionable symbol.
If the people who came to lynch your father did so under a confederate flag, how would you feel about that banner?

The meanings of symbols change over time. The swastika was a religious symbol before it was usurped by the Nazis

I agree that symbols change, which means the meaning of a symbol is not set forever in stone.

Just because the Klan co-opted the Symbol of the Confederacy does not make the Flag of the Confederacy racist...any more than if the Klan adopted the State flag of Connecticut as their standard would make any Connecticuters flying that flag a racist.