Climate Breakthroughs?

[longknife]

Posted on June 7, 2013 by Steven Hayward @ PowerLine blog

There are two items of interest in the otherwise dreary and repetitive world of climate change in the last few days—one about causation, and the other about potential remedy (if necessary). Let’s take the “remedy” item first, which can be summarized with the image of giving the oceans a really really big Alka Seltzer tablet.

Snip

ScienceDaily reports: @ Scientists develop CO₂ sequestration technique

Lawrence Livermore scientists have discovered and demonstrated a new technique to remove and store atmospheric carbon dioxide while generating carbon-negative hydrogen and producing alkalinity, which can be used to offset ocean acidification.

The team demonstrated, at a laboratory scale, a system that uses the acidity normally produced in saline water electrolysis to accelerate silicate mineral dissolution while producing hydrogen fuel and other gases. The resulting electrolyte solution was shown to be significantly elevated in hydroxide concentration that in turn proved strongly absorptive and retentive of atmospheric CO2.

Further, the researchers suggest that the carbonate and bicarbonate produced in the process could be used to mitigate ongoing ocean acidification, similar to how an Alka Seltzer neutralizes excess acid in the stomach.

Snip

Read more @ Climate Breakthroughs? | Power Line

 

[waltky]

Is so hot, Granny been fryin' eggs onna sidewalk...

Climate change ‘moving too fast’
Mon, Jul 15, 2013 - Among the many strange mantras repeated by climate change deniers is the claim that even in an overheated, climate-altered planet, animals and plants will still survive by adapting to global warming.

Corals, trees, birds, mammals and butterflies are already changing to the routine reality of global warming, it is argued. Certainly, countless species have adapted to past climate fluctuations. However, their rate of change turns out to be painfully slow, according to a study by John Wiens, a professor at the University of Arizona. Using data from 540 living species, including amphibians, reptiles, birds and mammals, Wiens and colleagues compared their rates of evolution with the rates of climate change projected for the end of this century.

The results, published online in the journal Ecology Letters, show that most land animals will not be able to evolve quickly enough to adapt to the dramatically warmer climate expected by 2100, which means many species face extinction. “We found that, on average, species usually adapt to different climatic conditions at a rate of only by about 1oC per million years,” Wiens said. “But if global temperatures are going to rise by about four degrees over the next 100 years as predicted by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, that is where you get a huge difference in rates. What that suggests overall is that simply evolving to match these conditions may not be an option for many species,” he added.

The study indicates there is simply not enough time for species to change their morphologies, for example, by altering their bodies’ shapes so they hold less heat to compensate for rising heat levels. Too many generations of evolutionary change are required. Nor is moving to a cooler habitat an option for many creatures. “Consider a species living on the top of a mountain,” Wiens said. “If it gets too warm or dry up there, they can’t go anywhere.”

The crucial point of the study is that it stresses a fact that is often conveniently ignored by climate change deniers. It is not just the dramatic nature of the changes that lie ahead, melting icecaps, rising sea levels and soaring temperatures, but the extraordinary speed at which they will occur. Past transformations that saw planetary temperatures soar took millions of years to occur. The one we are creating will take only a few generations to take place. Either evolution speeds up 10,000-fold, which is an unlikely occurrence, or there will be widespread extinctions.

Climate change ?moving too fast? - Taipei Times

 

[flacaltenn]

Is so hot, Granny been fryin' eggs onna sidewalk...

Climate change ‘moving too fast’
Mon, Jul 15, 2013 - Among the many strange mantras repeated by climate change deniers is the claim that even in an overheated, climate-altered planet, animals and plants will still survive by adapting to global warming.

Corals, trees, birds, mammals and butterflies are already changing to the routine reality of global warming, it is argued. Certainly, countless species have adapted to past climate fluctuations. However, their rate of change turns out to be painfully slow, according to a study by John Wiens, a professor at the University of Arizona. Using data from 540 living species, including amphibians, reptiles, birds and mammals, Wiens and colleagues compared their rates of evolution with the rates of climate change projected for the end of this century.

The results, published online in the journal Ecology Letters, show that most land animals will not be able to evolve quickly enough to adapt to the dramatically warmer climate expected by 2100, which means many species face extinction. “We found that, on average, species usually adapt to different climatic conditions at a rate of only by about 1oC per million years,” Wiens said. “But if global temperatures are going to rise by about four degrees over the next 100 years as predicted by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, that is where you get a huge difference in rates. What that suggests overall is that simply evolving to match these conditions may not be an option for many species,” he added.

The study indicates there is simply not enough time for species to change their morphologies, for example, by altering their bodies’ shapes so they hold less heat to compensate for rising heat levels. Too many generations of evolutionary change are required. Nor is moving to a cooler habitat an option for many creatures. “Consider a species living on the top of a mountain,” Wiens said. “If it gets too warm or dry up there, they can’t go anywhere.”

The crucial point of the study is that it stresses a fact that is often conveniently ignored by climate change deniers. It is not just the dramatic nature of the changes that lie ahead, melting icecaps, rising sea levels and soaring temperatures, but the extraordinary speed at which they will occur. Past transformations that saw planetary temperatures soar took millions of years to occur. The one we are creating will take only a few generations to take place. Either evolution speeds up 10,000-fold, which is an unlikely occurrence, or there will be widespread extinctions.

Climate change ?moving too fast? - Taipei Times

Sorry Waltky -- ain't buying the "too fast" argument. Temp has risen less than 1DegC ON AVERAGE globally in Grannies lifetime. (Ok for granny maybe a degreeC).. Natural biosphere variations are in the order of +20/-20 degC on land daily and seasonal. Even estuary life face daily variations in the +5/-5 range or higher.

A specie being stressed by an AVG 1degC change in 80 years has other bigger surviival problems.

LONG TERM --- there could be issues. I'm not buying the rate or magnitude issue as of now.

As for the OP -- the amount of seawater used to extract hydrogen and lower PH would be VASTLY insufficient to make a dent. You would have to AGGRESSIVELY dump "Tums" which would cause local effects perhaps as severe as the acidification..

They could just slap a calcium carbonate spinner on every ocean going prop and still not make a dent.

Again, the range of acidification we are seeing now in still small compared to daily and seasonal NATURAL variations. It is also largely NOW -- a surface phenomenon. With larger effects in deep water projected to be decades down the road.

 

[westwall]

Is so hot, Granny been fryin' eggs onna sidewalk...

Climate change ‘moving too fast’
Mon, Jul 15, 2013 - Among the many strange mantras repeated by climate change deniers is the claim that even in an overheated, climate-altered planet, animals and plants will still survive by adapting to global warming.

Corals, trees, birds, mammals and butterflies are already changing to the routine reality of global warming, it is argued. Certainly, countless species have adapted to past climate fluctuations. However, their rate of change turns out to be painfully slow, according to a study by John Wiens, a professor at the University of Arizona. Using data from 540 living species, including amphibians, reptiles, birds and mammals, Wiens and colleagues compared their rates of evolution with the rates of climate change projected for the end of this century.

The results, published online in the journal Ecology Letters, show that most land animals will not be able to evolve quickly enough to adapt to the dramatically warmer climate expected by 2100, which means many species face extinction. “We found that, on average, species usually adapt to different climatic conditions at a rate of only by about 1oC per million years,” Wiens said. “But if global temperatures are going to rise by about four degrees over the next 100 years as predicted by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, that is where you get a huge difference in rates. What that suggests overall is that simply evolving to match these conditions may not be an option for many species,” he added.

The study indicates there is simply not enough time for species to change their morphologies, for example, by altering their bodies’ shapes so they hold less heat to compensate for rising heat levels. Too many generations of evolutionary change are required. Nor is moving to a cooler habitat an option for many creatures. “Consider a species living on the top of a mountain,” Wiens said. “If it gets too warm or dry up there, they can’t go anywhere.”

The crucial point of the study is that it stresses a fact that is often conveniently ignored by climate change deniers. It is not just the dramatic nature of the changes that lie ahead, melting icecaps, rising sea levels and soaring temperatures, but the extraordinary speed at which they will occur. Past transformations that saw planetary temperatures soar took millions of years to occur. The one we are creating will take only a few generations to take place. Either evolution speeds up 10,000-fold, which is an unlikely occurrence, or there will be widespread extinctions.

Climate change ?moving too fast? - Taipei Times

Sorry Waltky -- ain't buying the "too fast" argument. Temp has risen less than 1DegC ON AVERAGE globally in Grannies lifetime. (Ok for granny maybe a degreeC).. Natural biosphere variations are in the order of +20/-20 degC on land daily and seasonal. Even estuary life face daily variations in the +5/-5 range or higher.

A specie being stressed by an AVG 1degC change in 60 years has other bigger problems.

LONG TERM --- there could be issues. I'm not buying the rate or magnitude issue as of now.

As for the OP -- the amount of seawater used to extract hydrogen and lower PH would be VASTLY insufficient to make a dent. You would have to AGGRESSIVELY dump "Tums" which would cause local effects perhaps as severe as the acidification..

They could just slap a calcium carbonate spinner on every ocean going prop and still not make a dent.

Again, the range of acidification we are seeing now in still small compared to daily and seasonal NATURAL variations. It is also largely NOW -- a surface phenomenon. With larger effects in deep water projected to be decades down the road.

Ocean acidification is almost as big a fraud as global warming. The facts are simple, we could burn every carbon bearing rock ON THIS PLANET and the oceans pH would drop from 8.1 to 8.0. Still very alkaline.

 

[flacaltenn]

Is so hot, Granny been fryin' eggs onna sidewalk...

Climate change ‘moving too fast’
Mon, Jul 15, 2013 - Among the many strange mantras repeated by climate change deniers is the claim that even in an overheated, climate-altered planet, animals and plants will still survive by adapting to global warming.

Sorry Waltky -- ain't buying the "too fast" argument. Temp has risen less than 1DegC ON AVERAGE globally in Grannies lifetime. (Ok for granny maybe a degreeC).. Natural biosphere variations are in the order of +20/-20 degC on land daily and seasonal. Even estuary life face daily variations in the +5/-5 range or higher.

A specie being stressed by an AVG 1degC change in 60 years has other bigger problems.

LONG TERM --- there could be issues. I'm not buying the rate or magnitude issue as of now.

As for the OP -- the amount of seawater used to extract hydrogen and lower PH would be VASTLY insufficient to make a dent. You would have to AGGRESSIVELY dump "Tums" which would cause local effects perhaps as severe as the acidification..

They could just slap a calcium carbonate spinner on every ocean going prop and still not make a dent.

Again, the range of acidification we are seeing now in still small compared to daily and seasonal NATURAL variations. It is also largely NOW -- a surface phenomenon. With larger effects in deep water projected to be decades down the road.

Ocean acidification is almost as big a fraud as global warming. The facts are simple, we could burn every carbon bearing rock ON THIS PLANET and the oceans pH would drop from 8.1 to 8.0. Still very alkaline.

You're right about the magnitude but I think it's their strongest concern..

There's 700Gtons of NATURAL CO2 exchange on the planet. The oceans are about 1/2 of that. Changing the uptake rate by 10% would roughly equal the man-contributed portion..

In addition -- FRESH water has a PH of 7.0.. Substantial additions of PURE Glacial water (sounds refreshing) could do a number on subsurface PH concentrations and accelerate the uptake and the surface mixing. ((at 2mm/yr SLevel rise?? Most of THAT from thermal expansion?))

Arguing with myself because I can't find any skillful warmers to do it. !!!! Think we're gonna need to import a couple H VISA warmers..

Best place I've found for summary numbers and graphs is

Ocean Acidification

Stuff there includes charts of shallow water reefs varying 7.8 to about 8.5 in a 24 hour period. And an ocean map showing some REALLY alkaline coastline at sub tropical lattitudes. Like Mexico..

 

[mamooth]

"Acidification" is the correct term, as acidification refers to adding H+ ions, which is what is happening. The final pH is not relevant to whether acidification is happening.

And the oceans will eventually stabilize the pH at a higher CO2 level ... over a span of thousands of years. Ocean chemistry, the rational side knows it, the denialists don't. Hence flac's deflections about how pH varies with tides, something that has jack to do with the issue. It will be interesting to see what other handwaving he comes up with. Most likely, it will boil down the tried and true "All the data is forged!" conspiracy.

 

[flacaltenn]

"Acidification" is the correct term, as acidification refers to adding H+ ions, which is what is happening. The final pH is not relevant to whether acidification is happening.

And the oceans will eventually stabilize the pH at a higher CO2 level ... over a span of thousands of years. Ocean chemistry, the rational side knows it, the denialists don't. Hence flac's deflections about how pH varies with tides, something that has jack to do with the issue. It will be interesting to see what other handwaving he comes up with. Most likely, it will boil down the tried and true "All the data is forged!" conspiracy.

Youre losing your edge.. You used to sometimes make sense. Now you don't THINK.. You just babble personal attacks..

OF COURSE the way PH varies with tides, and Time of Day and seasons matter.. They matter to all the little critters "threatened" by acidification.. That's not handwaving, its science. To do the surveys of what the current variance in PH biosystems experience BEFORE you go off with your jaws flapping about a 0.1 change in the annual average..

You getting close to useless as a debate dummy...