Civil Disobedience and Terry Schaivo

[Avatar4321]

isn't it interesting that those who are supporting keeping terri alive no matter what state she's in aren't living in that state.

Not all of us are cursed enough to live in Florida.

 

[Avatar4321]

This three ring circus has gone on for far too long, and it has become a cause celebre for meddlesome right wing-nut politicians to display their moral rectitude when all that they are really doing is showing how far their heads are up their rectums. They bitch about "activist judges" who usurp legislative authority and the "will of the people". Well just what the hell are they doing except becoming "activist legislators" usurping the authority of the courts? What utter hypocrisy. Were anyone to do to a dog what has been done to Mrs. Schiavo in the name of "saving" her life, they would be brought up on charges of felony animal cruelty

Um Bully. Legislators are supposed to be activists. And has been pointed out Congress has been given authority over the court in Article III of the Constitution.

And you are right if anyone tried to starve and dehydrate a dog in the name of easing her suffering they would be brought up on charges of animal cruelty. Why is it you left wingers can scream and yell about animal cruelty but have no heart when it comes to human suffering.

 

[Avatar4321]

At first, I was extremely suspicious of the husband's motivation. But he has twice turned down the offer of a million dollars or more if he would simply wash his hands of the entire matter and walk away. That pretty much convinces me that he is not acting out of greed because he could have profitted substantially by simply divorcing his wife and walking away. So I am forced to believe that his motives are based on his wife's expressed wishes.

I understand your view here but i am still suspicious of the husbands motivation. Because there is also a question of whether Michael was covering something up. Its just very suspicious how he decides to pull the tube after they win the law suit and wants the remains immediately creamated. I have no doubt that regardless what happens much good will come out of this tragedy.

 

[Avatar4321]

The Florida state court judge in this case is applying Florida law. He is not a rogue judge. He is applying the law of the state of Florida, which is his job. The doctrine of Federalism should prevent the federal legislature from interfering in this case.

Actually he may be in contempt of Congress since Congress has stepped in and the judge went through with the order anyway.

 

[Eightball]

Didn't the Florida Court overrule the people of Florida?

Bully mentioned that other states people want to influence this decision, but didn't the state of Florida also want to save Terry's life, but the Florida court overruled the people?

 

[Mr. P]

....
mr. p.,

I find the more relevant question to be...were all the court procedings and rulings done with complete information and consideration of the fact. After reviewing some of the documents it seems that much was left out...vital tests, flawed witnesses.

I have no qualms with saying that Terri Shiavo's life and/or death is none of my business...but if we rule that we can medically diagnose someone as PVS without doing all of the necessary tests...or that we can make that determination given testimony from a doctor with an obvious bias towards diagnosing PVS, even cases where patients can feed themselves, interact with others, and move around of their own free will...then it IS my business because any one of my family could end up in similar circumstances.

.....

So are you saying all tests needed have not been done after all these years? If they were done why not presented? Don't worry this case will not set presedent in the courts as far as required tests for a diagnosis. It won't.

 

[ReillyT]

Actually he may be in contempt of Congress since Congress has stepped in and the judge went through with the order anyway.

I don't know if he will. First, if this was just an attempt to circumvent a state court judge's application of Florida law (which it obviously is), Congress has overstepped its bounds, and I don't know that a court would find him in contempt. Second, the judge did not say that Terri could not appear. He just said that her feeding tube can be removed. That doesn't prevent her from appearing, provided she is still alive, at the time and place appointed by Congress. But then again, I don't think an issue like this has ever come up and I don't know for certain how it would be resolved.

 

[ReillyT]

Didn't the Florida Court overrule the people of Florida?

Bully mentioned that other states people want to influence this decision, but didn't the state of Florida also want to save Terry's life, but the Florida court overruled the people?

The state legislature stepped in with legislation that applied only to this exact situation in what was a clear violation of the Constitution. Laws are supposed to be general in application, not directed at individuals. Courts had no problem finding that this was unconstitutional.

 

[Bonnie]

isn't it interesting that those who are supporting keeping terri alive no matter what state she's in aren't living in that state.

Ill bet the judge that ruled to pull the plug today would feel differently if that was his daughter.

And I have posted about this before but my grandmother was in a coma in Fla, the doctors wanted to pull the plug, we had to fight them, we won, and she came out of it and lived for 10 more years.

 

[SmarterThanYou]

Um Bully. Legislators are supposed to be activists. And has been pointed out Congress has been given authority over the court in Article III of the Constitution.

And you are right if anyone tried to starve and dehydrate a dog in the name of easing her suffering they would be brought up on charges of animal cruelty. Why is it you left wingers can scream and yell about animal cruelty but have no heart when it comes to human suffering.

because today, euthanasia is legal for animals. why can't you right wingers understand THATS why we wanted to approve assisted suicide?

 

[SmarterThanYou]

Ill bet the judge that ruled to pull the plug today would feel differently if that was his daughter.

that indeed could be the case. walk a mile I say..........then make your decision.

 

[Gem]

Mr. P. according to the documents I have read Terri Shiavo has never been given an MRI, nor other important scans that many neurologist consider standard operating procedure when attempting to make a diagnosis of PVS.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Actually he may be in contempt of Congress since Congress has stepped in and the judge went through with the order anyway.

Right, Bush should now send in the Federal Marshalls to stop things.
As Bush said, if there is any doubt, we should always err on the side of life.
Why the reluctance to have a Federal judge review the case?
Murderers on death row get more consideration.

 

[Avatar4321]

because today, euthanasia is legal for animals. why can't you right wingers understand THATS why we wanted to approve assisted suicide?

When are you lefties going to understand that murder will never be approved?

 

[5stringJeff]

because today, euthanasia is legal for animals. why can't you right wingers understand THATS why we wanted to approve assisted suicide?

Because us right wingers refuse to believe that humans are no better than animals.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Um Bully. Legislators are supposed to be activists. And has been pointed out Congress has been given authority over the court in Article III of the Constitution.

And you are right if anyone tried to starve and dehydrate a dog in the name of easing her suffering they would be brought up on charges of animal cruelty. Why is it you left wingers can scream and yell about animal cruelty but have no heart when it comes to human suffering.

I would accept your point if you actually knew anything about human suffering, but your posts on this topic show that you do indeed lack any such understanding.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Ill bet the judge that ruled to pull the plug today would feel differently if that was his daughter.

And I have posted about this before but my grandmother was in a coma in Fla, the doctors wanted to pull the plug, we had to fight them, we won, and she came out of it and lived for 10 more years.

Actually, he might not. After a massive MI, resulting in significant anoxic brain damage, we had my father extubated and let him go. Had we not done so, he would have wound up in Terri Schiavo's condition. We were all in agreement, and my father had expressed his wishes to us that he would not want to live in such a state. There was no living will...there was only our understanding of his expressed wishes.

What we see in the case of Mrs. Schiavo is the hell which can be unleashed when other family members disagree with the decision of the primary decision maker, in this case, Mr. Schiavo. It was not unreasonable to try to find some hope that she would have awoken from her coma after a few months or even a year or so after her MI, given her youth at the time. But after that, the chances of her reviving are almost non-existent. I know someone will dredge up examples of people who have been in comas for decades, and then "awakened", but they most often suffered from a tramatic brain injury which was localized rather than global as anoxic brain injury is. One the heart stops, there are only a very few minutes before grave and irreversible brain damage occurs.

 

[Ceres]

This occurs much more than anyone knows. It's just become such a public affair with Jeb Bush and all.

We also decided near my mother's death from Parkinsons and total malnutrition, to disconnect her. She only had weeks to go and she had become so malnourished. She barely weighed 70 #. She was in her 80's.

The morning they were going to do this, my mother had passed already. We laughed and cried because of the irony of it. If you knew my mother, you would have known she wouldn't let someone do this to her. She'd rather do it herself.
At least that's what we like thinking.

 

[Eightball]

Actually, he might not. After a massive MI, resulting in significant anoxic brain damage, we had my father extubated and let him go. Had we not done so, he would have wound up in Terri Schiavo's condition. We were all in agreement, and my father had expressed his wishes to us that he would not want to live in such a state. There was no living will...there was only our understanding of his expressed wishes.

What we see in the case of Mrs. Schiavo is the hell which can be unleashed when other family members disagree with the decision of the primary decision maker, in this case, Mr. Schiavo. It was not unreasonable to try to find some hope that she would have awoken from her coma after a few months or even a year or so after her MI, given her youth at the time. But after that, the chances of her reviving are almost non-existent. I know someone will dredge up examples of people who have been in comas for decades, and then "awakened", but they most often suffered from a tramatic brain injury which was localized rather than global as anoxic brain injury is. One the heart stops, there are only a very few minutes before grave and irreversible brain damage occurs.

Is giving Mrs Schiavo food and water being extraordinary in the area of life support?

Is she living in a hellish state?

 

[Annie]

This occurs much more than anyone knows. It's just become such a public affair with Jeb Bush and all.

We also decided near my mother's death from Parkinsons and total malnutrition, to disconnect her. She only had weeks to go and she had become so malnourished. She barely weighed 70 #. She was in her 80's.

The morning they were going to do this, my mother had passed already. We laughed and cried because of the irony of it. If you knew my mother, you would have known she wouldn't let someone do this to her. She'd rather do it herself.
At least that's what we like thinking.

I'm glad for your family. There is the difference, you were all on the same wavelength, since she didn't leave anything in writing. I know where you are coming from, we took nearly 15 hours telling my mom, not conscious to 'let go.' We wanted her released from her suffering, she too weighed under 65 lbs at death, but not without sustence, that we didn't do.

If we, as a people, chose this form of 'death' for a prisoner on death row, it would be 'cruel and unusual.'