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Ok, so then take care of that aspect of it, and quit boasting about taking all the guns by way of every mega phone, and through every bully bull pit out there that there is.Hey just look at the illegal drug trade. How long have they been trying to fix that situation ? Gun's are no different when they are brought in illegally, and sold illegally etc.Criminals will always get guns. They steal them or buy them illegally. They can have smugglers bring them in from Mexico, or wherever. The Cartels get surplus military weapons illegally from Central and South America. They will sell you whatever you want for a price, just like they sell illegal drugs, which people also get and they've been illegal for a very long time.
Both you and Pilot should watch a VICE documentary called "The Iron Pipeline". The guns that criminals get are usually purchased legally at gun shows in places where the gun laws are pretty lax, and then they are carried across state lines to places like Chicago where they can go for 3 to 4 times the original purchase price. There are no checkpoints across state lines for civilian vehicles, so transporting them from one state to the other isn't too much trouble.
Never know until attempt something that suits everyone in a vote upon. A sounds ok.Ok, so then take care of that aspect of it, and quit boasting about taking all the guns by way of every mega phone, and through every bully bull pit out there that there is.Hey just look at the illegal drug trade. How long have they been trying to fix that situation ? Gun's are no different when they are brought in illegally, and sold illegally etc.Criminals will always get guns. They steal them or buy them illegally. They can have smugglers bring them in from Mexico, or wherever. The Cartels get surplus military weapons illegally from Central and South America. They will sell you whatever you want for a price, just like they sell illegal drugs, which people also get and they've been illegal for a very long time.
Both you and Pilot should watch a VICE documentary called "The Iron Pipeline". The guns that criminals get are usually purchased legally at gun shows in places where the gun laws are pretty lax, and then they are carried across state lines to places like Chicago where they can go for 3 to 4 times the original purchase price. There are no checkpoints across state lines for civilian vehicles, so transporting them from one state to the other isn't too much trouble.
The only way that we could take care of that aspect of it is to either (a) have checkpoints at all state border crossings that check for guns that are being shipped from one state to the other, or (b) enact federal gun laws that cover all 50 states equally.
Neither choice would be acceptable to gun enthusiasts.
Ok, so then take care of that aspect of it, and quit boasting about taking all the guns by way of every mega phone, and through every bully bull pit out there that there is.Hey just look at the illegal drug trade. How long have they been trying to fix that situation ? Gun's are no different when they are brought in illegally, and sold illegally etc.Criminals will always get guns. They steal them or buy them illegally. They can have smugglers bring them in from Mexico, or wherever. The Cartels get surplus military weapons illegally from Central and South America. They will sell you whatever you want for a price, just like they sell illegal drugs, which people also get and they've been illegal for a very long time.
Both you and Pilot should watch a VICE documentary called "The Iron Pipeline". The guns that criminals get are usually purchased legally at gun shows in places where the gun laws are pretty lax, and then they are carried across state lines to places like Chicago where they can go for 3 to 4 times the original purchase price. There are no checkpoints across state lines for civilian vehicles, so transporting them from one state to the other isn't too much trouble.
The only way that we could take care of that aspect of it is to either (a) have checkpoints at all state border crossings that check for guns that are being shipped from one state to the other, or (b) enact federal gun laws that cover all 50 states equally.
Neither choice would be acceptable to gun enthusiasts.
Because neither are necessary or effective.The only way that we could take care of that aspect of it is to either (a) have checkpoints at all state border crossings that check for guns that are being shipped from one state to the other, or (b) enact federal gun laws that cover all 50 states equally.
Neither choice would be acceptable to gun enthusiasts.
A plan needs to be created that removes guns from gangs and criminals. We see documentaries, news, and situations in everyday life that proves law enforcement knows who these people are, yet why are their hands tied to take action against them ??? Figure that one out, and we will get somewhere with it all. Of course every move made will bring about scorn from liberal activist that will claim the law is just being bullies or if the group infiltrated is black, then instantly the law is racist. It's a no win situation for all, and a no solution situation for all.Ok, so then take care of that aspect of it, and quit boasting about taking all the guns by way of every mega phone, and through every bully bull pit out there that there is.Hey just look at the illegal drug trade. How long have they been trying to fix that situation ? Gun's are no different when they are brought in illegally, and sold illegally etc.Criminals will always get guns. They steal them or buy them illegally. They can have smugglers bring them in from Mexico, or wherever. The Cartels get surplus military weapons illegally from Central and South America. They will sell you whatever you want for a price, just like they sell illegal drugs, which people also get and they've been illegal for a very long time.
Both you and Pilot should watch a VICE documentary called "The Iron Pipeline". The guns that criminals get are usually purchased legally at gun shows in places where the gun laws are pretty lax, and then they are carried across state lines to places like Chicago where they can go for 3 to 4 times the original purchase price. There are no checkpoints across state lines for civilian vehicles, so transporting them from one state to the other isn't too much trouble.
The only way that we could take care of that aspect of it is to either (a) have checkpoints at all state border crossings that check for guns that are being shipped from one state to the other, or (b) enact federal gun laws that cover all 50 states equally.
Neither choice would be acceptable to gun enthusiasts.
It is already against the law in all 50 states to knowingly sell a gun to a criminal.
It is already against the law in all 50 states for a convicted criminal to buy, own or carry a gun.
There...your problem is already taken care of......
I know that both are already acceptable to gun owners.....but thanks for playing.
A plan needs to be created that removes guns from gangs and criminals. We see documentaries, news, and situations in everyday life that proves law enforcement knows who these people are, yet why are their hands tied to take action against them ??? Figure that one out, and we will get somewhere with it all. Of course every move made will bring about scorn from liberal activist that will claim the law is just being bullies or if the group infiltrated is black, then instantly the law is racist. It's a no win situation for all, and a no solution situation for all.Ok, so then take care of that aspect of it, and quit boasting about taking all the guns by way of every mega phone, and through every bully bull pit out there that there is.Hey just look at the illegal drug trade. How long have they been trying to fix that situation ? Gun's are no different when they are brought in illegally, and sold illegally etc.
Both you and Pilot should watch a VICE documentary called "The Iron Pipeline". The guns that criminals get are usually purchased legally at gun shows in places where the gun laws are pretty lax, and then they are carried across state lines to places like Chicago where they can go for 3 to 4 times the original purchase price. There are no checkpoints across state lines for civilian vehicles, so transporting them from one state to the other isn't too much trouble.
The only way that we could take care of that aspect of it is to either (a) have checkpoints at all state border crossings that check for guns that are being shipped from one state to the other, or (b) enact federal gun laws that cover all 50 states equally.
Neither choice would be acceptable to gun enthusiasts.
It is already against the law in all 50 states to knowingly sell a gun to a criminal.
It is already against the law in all 50 states for a convicted criminal to buy, own or carry a gun.
There...your problem is already taken care of......
I know that both are already acceptable to gun owners.....but thanks for playing.
Ok, so then take care of that aspect of it, and quit boasting about taking all the guns by way of every mega phone, and through every bully bull pit out there that there is.Hey just look at the illegal drug trade. How long have they been trying to fix that situation ? Gun's are no different when they are brought in illegally, and sold illegally etc.Criminals will always get guns. They steal them or buy them illegally. They can have smugglers bring them in from Mexico, or wherever. The Cartels get surplus military weapons illegally from Central and South America. They will sell you whatever you want for a price, just like they sell illegal drugs, which people also get and they've been illegal for a very long time.
Both you and Pilot should watch a VICE documentary called "The Iron Pipeline". The guns that criminals get are usually purchased legally at gun shows in places where the gun laws are pretty lax, and then they are carried across state lines to places like Chicago where they can go for 3 to 4 times the original purchase price. There are no checkpoints across state lines for civilian vehicles, so transporting them from one state to the other isn't too much trouble.
The only way that we could take care of that aspect of it is to either (a) have checkpoints at all state border crossings that check for guns that are being shipped from one state to the other, or (b) enact federal gun laws that cover all 50 states equally.
Neither choice would be acceptable to gun enthusiasts.
Ok, so then take care of that aspect of it, and quit boasting about taking all the guns by way of every mega phone, and through every bully bull pit out there that there is.Hey just look at the illegal drug trade. How long have they been trying to fix that situation ? Gun's are no different when they are brought in illegally, and sold illegally etc.Criminals will always get guns. They steal them or buy them illegally. They can have smugglers bring them in from Mexico, or wherever. The Cartels get surplus military weapons illegally from Central and South America. They will sell you whatever you want for a price, just like they sell illegal drugs, which people also get and they've been illegal for a very long time.
Both you and Pilot should watch a VICE documentary called "The Iron Pipeline". The guns that criminals get are usually purchased legally at gun shows in places where the gun laws are pretty lax, and then they are carried across state lines to places like Chicago where they can go for 3 to 4 times the original purchase price. There are no checkpoints across state lines for civilian vehicles, so transporting them from one state to the other isn't too much trouble.
The only way that we could take care of that aspect of it is to either (a) have checkpoints at all state border crossings that check for guns that are being shipped from one state to the other, or (b) enact federal gun laws that cover all 50 states equally.
Neither choice would be acceptable to gun enthusiasts.
Do it!!! I hope you like paying $50 or more a bushel for corn.
Can't even keep guns that shouldn't be in the United States out. What makes you think that putting up border check points at each state line will stop those illegal arms?
*****SMILE*****
There is no way to know if a person used a gun in self defense without firing it unless you want to read every police report for every day of the yearso there are NOT millions of SD uses like 2AGuy says?? !!!??Look at you, completely ignoring the fact the numbers are about 9:1 in favor of defensive gun uses over gun-related murders.hold it--so you are saying it's not over a MILLION times a year??Better check your math.for every SD use, there are dozens of murders
Guns are used at in self-defense at least 80,000 times per year.
http://vpc.org/studies/justifiable19.pdf (Table 6)
Compare this to 9092 gun-related murders per year.
Expanded Homicide Data Table 8
That's about 9:1 in favor of defensive gun uses.
80,000 is not even close to a million....?
-You- said:
for every SD use, there are dozens of murders
How can you be so wrong?
9:1 murders/crimes with firearms per DS uses
stop the stupid shit..there is no way and can be no way there are more SD uses than murders and shootings --not even counting crimes
again, everyday we see a murder/murders --day after day ...then we finally see ONE SD use and you people go crazy --EUREKA --an SD use!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! finally
= idiocy
...there are documented and reported murders everyday--but not SD uses --plain and simple
Bad people don't need guns to hurt and kill innocent peopleBe VERY specific now and explain how you will PREVENT people that don't care about laws from getting firearms?Bad people without guns don't shoot good people.
Is that an order? It sure seems like an order.
Won't show up in every report, because many times the gun descalated the situation before it turned bad. A good guy produces a gun in a situation, and 99.9% of the time it stops the offender/attacker from advancing if the attacker underestimated the situation. Video after video of such situations are on the internet to view. The Texas church attack is just one of them we are viewing currently. There are literally thousands of thwarted attacks, but the left can't admit to it because of their political agenda.There is no way to know if a person used a gun in self defense without firing it unless you want to read every police report for every day of the yearso there are NOT millions of SD uses like 2AGuy says?? !!!??Look at you, completely ignoring the fact the numbers are about 9:1 in favor of defensive gun uses over gun-related murders.hold it--so you are saying it's not over a MILLION times a year??Better check your math.for every SD use, there are dozens of murders
Guns are used at in self-defense at least 80,000 times per year.
http://vpc.org/studies/justifiable19.pdf (Table 6)
Compare this to 9092 gun-related murders per year.
Expanded Homicide Data Table 8
That's about 9:1 in favor of defensive gun uses.
80,000 is not even close to a million....?
-You- said:
for every SD use, there are dozens of murders
How can you be so wrong?
9:1 murders/crimes with firearms per DS uses
stop the stupid shit..there is no way and can be no way there are more SD uses than murders and shootings --not even counting crimes
again, everyday we see a murder/murders --day after day ...then we finally see ONE SD use and you people go crazy --EUREKA --an SD use!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! finally
= idiocy
...there are documented and reported murders everyday--but not SD uses --plain and simple
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
Who needs to carry a gun to church? People who know that evil people target good people for murder....
It is being reported that this shooter may have been stopped by armed citizens with their legal guns....saving lives, stopping the killing...
The shooter may have had a rifle, and was stopped by a good guy with a pistol...
BREAKING: Church Shooting Reported In Texas, Armed Churchgoers Appear To Have Stopped It, Reporter Suggests
“It appears that a gunman shot two church members at back of auditorium with a footlong weapon, then a member shot the gunman with a pistol,” Ross wrote. “This is just based on me watching the video again. Screaming afterward in the church. So tragic. Two quick shots at back, then another shot. Then at least three members (I believe) with pistols [walking] toward where the gunman appeared to fall.”
Armed Citizens Are Successful 94% Of The Time At Active Shooter Events [FBI]
Of all the active shooter events there were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.
Thus the headline of our report that Armed Citizens Are Successful 94% Of The Time At Active Shooter Events.
In the 2 incidents at which the armed citizen “failed” to stop or slow the active shooter, one is the previously mentioned incident with hunters. The other is an incident in which the CCWer was shot in the back in a Las Vegas Walmart when he failed to identify that there were 2 Active Shooters involved in the attack. He neglected to identify the one that shot him in the back while he was trying to ambush the other perpetrator.
We also decided to look at the breakdown of events that took place in gun free zones and the relative death toll from events in gun free zones vs non-gun-free zones.
Of the 283 incidents in our data pool, we were unable to identify if the event took place in a gun-free zone in a large number (41%) of the events. Most of the events took place at a business, church, home, or other places at which as a rule of law it is not a gun free zone but potentially could have been declared one by the property owner. Without any information in the FBI study or any indication one way or the other from the news reports, we have indicated that event with a question mark.
If you look at all of the Active Shooter events (pie chart on the top) you see that for those which we have the information, almost twice as many took place in gun free zones than not; but realistically the vast majority of those for which we have no information (indicated as ?) are probably NOT gun free zones.
If you isolate just the events at which 8 or more people were killed the data paints a different picture (pie chart on the bottom). In these incidents, 77.8% took place in a gun-free zone suggesting that gun free zones lead to a higher death rate vs active shooter events in general
=====
One of the final metrics we thought was important to consider is the potential tendency for armed citizens to injure or kill innocent people in their attempt to “save the day.” A common point in political discussions is to point out the lack of training of most armed citizens and the decrease in safety inherent in their presence during violent encounters.
As you can see below, however, at the 33 incidents at which Armed Citizens were present, there were zero situations at which the Armed Citizen injured or killed an innocent person. It never happened.
BREAKING: Man Opens Fire At Oklahoma Walmart, Confronted By Armed Citizen, Report Says
Two people were killed at a Walmart in Oklahoma by a man who opened fire in the parking lot on Monday before turning the weapon on himself after an armed citizen confronted him.
------
The assailant, who has not yet been identified, shot and killed a man and a woman in the parking lot and when he was “confronted by an armed citizen, he then turned the gun on himself,” The Daily Mail reported.
I'm seeing leftists entering some of these threads to fart their disapproval of church people defending their own. It sends a message to people with sick enough minds to walk into a church building and start shooting to kill helpless attendees.it's their 15 minutes of glory. This one didn't get much more than fifteen seconds, thanks to an alert defender.Who needs to carry a gun to church? People who know that evil people target good people for murder....
It is being reported that this shooter may have been stopped by armed citizens with their legal guns....saving lives, stopping the killing...
The shooter may have had a rifle, and was stopped by a good guy with a pistol...
BREAKING: Church Shooting Reported In Texas, Armed Churchgoers Appear To Have Stopped It, Reporter Suggests
“It appears that a gunman shot two church members at back of auditorium with a footlong weapon, then a member shot the gunman with a pistol,” Ross wrote. “This is just based on me watching the video again. Screaming afterward in the church. So tragic. Two quick shots at back, then another shot. Then at least three members (I believe) with pistols [walking] toward where the gunman appeared to fall.”
Armed Citizens Are Successful 94% Of The Time At Active Shooter Events [FBI]
Of all the active shooter events there were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.
Thus the headline of our report that Armed Citizens Are Successful 94% Of The Time At Active Shooter Events.
In the 2 incidents at which the armed citizen “failed” to stop or slow the active shooter, one is the previously mentioned incident with hunters. The other is an incident in which the CCWer was shot in the back in a Las Vegas Walmart when he failed to identify that there were 2 Active Shooters involved in the attack. He neglected to identify the one that shot him in the back while he was trying to ambush the other perpetrator.
We also decided to look at the breakdown of events that took place in gun free zones and the relative death toll from events in gun free zones vs non-gun-free zones.
Of the 283 incidents in our data pool, we were unable to identify if the event took place in a gun-free zone in a large number (41%) of the events. Most of the events took place at a business, church, home, or other places at which as a rule of law it is not a gun free zone but potentially could have been declared one by the property owner. Without any information in the FBI study or any indication one way or the other from the news reports, we have indicated that event with a question mark.
If you look at all of the Active Shooter events (pie chart on the top) you see that for those which we have the information, almost twice as many took place in gun free zones than not; but realistically the vast majority of those for which we have no information (indicated as ?) are probably NOT gun free zones.
If you isolate just the events at which 8 or more people were killed the data paints a different picture (pie chart on the bottom). In these incidents, 77.8% took place in a gun-free zone suggesting that gun free zones lead to a higher death rate vs active shooter events in general
=====
One of the final metrics we thought was important to consider is the potential tendency for armed citizens to injure or kill innocent people in their attempt to “save the day.” A common point in political discussions is to point out the lack of training of most armed citizens and the decrease in safety inherent in their presence during violent encounters.
As you can see below, however, at the 33 incidents at which Armed Citizens were present, there were zero situations at which the Armed Citizen injured or killed an innocent person. It never happened.
BREAKING: Man Opens Fire At Oklahoma Walmart, Confronted By Armed Citizen, Report Says
Two people were killed at a Walmart in Oklahoma by a man who opened fire in the parking lot on Monday before turning the weapon on himself after an armed citizen confronted him.
------
The assailant, who has not yet been identified, shot and killed a man and a woman in the parking lot and when he was “confronted by an armed citizen, he then turned the gun on himself,” The Daily Mail reported.
Ok, so then take care of that aspect of it, and quit boasting about taking all the guns by way of every mega phone, and through every bully bull pit out there that there is.Hey just look at the illegal drug trade. How long have they been trying to fix that situation ? Gun's are no different when they are brought in illegally, and sold illegally etc.Criminals will always get guns. They steal them or buy them illegally. They can have smugglers bring them in from Mexico, or wherever. The Cartels get surplus military weapons illegally from Central and South America. They will sell you whatever you want for a price, just like they sell illegal drugs, which people also get and they've been illegal for a very long time.
Both you and Pilot should watch a VICE documentary called "The Iron Pipeline". The guns that criminals get are usually purchased legally at gun shows in places where the gun laws are pretty lax, and then they are carried across state lines to places like Chicago where they can go for 3 to 4 times the original purchase price. There are no checkpoints across state lines for civilian vehicles, so transporting them from one state to the other isn't too much trouble.
The only way that we could take care of that aspect of it is to either (a) have checkpoints at all state border crossings that check for guns that are being shipped from one state to the other, or (b) enact federal gun laws that cover all 50 states equally.
Neither choice would be acceptable to gun enthusiasts.
SD uses that don't result in death are not often reported because they are not rare, thus are not news. Many, many times all that is required for the attempted assault to end is for the armed citizen to merely show that they are armed.....we've been over that bullshit before AND do you know how idiotic you sound?????!!!!for every SD use, there are dozens of murdersWho needs to carry a gun to church? People who know that evil people target good people for murder....
It is being reported that this shooter may have been stopped by armed citizens with their legal guns....saving lives, stopping the killing...
The shooter may have had a rifle, and was stopped by a good guy with a pistol...
BREAKING: Church Shooting Reported In Texas, Armed Churchgoers Appear To Have Stopped It, Reporter Suggests
“It appears that a gunman shot two church members at back of auditorium with a footlong weapon, then a member shot the gunman with a pistol,” Ross wrote. “This is just based on me watching the video again. Screaming afterward in the church. So tragic. Two quick shots at back, then another shot. Then at least three members (I believe) with pistols [walking] toward where the gunman appeared to fall.”
Armed Citizens Are Successful 94% Of The Time At Active Shooter Events [FBI]
Of all the active shooter events there were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.
Thus the headline of our report that Armed Citizens Are Successful 94% Of The Time At Active Shooter Events.
In the 2 incidents at which the armed citizen “failed” to stop or slow the active shooter, one is the previously mentioned incident with hunters. The other is an incident in which the CCWer was shot in the back in a Las Vegas Walmart when he failed to identify that there were 2 Active Shooters involved in the attack. He neglected to identify the one that shot him in the back while he was trying to ambush the other perpetrator.
We also decided to look at the breakdown of events that took place in gun free zones and the relative death toll from events in gun free zones vs non-gun-free zones.
Of the 283 incidents in our data pool, we were unable to identify if the event took place in a gun-free zone in a large number (41%) of the events. Most of the events took place at a business, church, home, or other places at which as a rule of law it is not a gun free zone but potentially could have been declared one by the property owner. Without any information in the FBI study or any indication one way or the other from the news reports, we have indicated that event with a question mark.
If you look at all of the Active Shooter events (pie chart on the top) you see that for those which we have the information, almost twice as many took place in gun free zones than not; but realistically the vast majority of those for which we have no information (indicated as ?) are probably NOT gun free zones.
If you isolate just the events at which 8 or more people were killed the data paints a different picture (pie chart on the bottom). In these incidents, 77.8% took place in a gun-free zone suggesting that gun free zones lead to a higher death rate vs active shooter events in general
=====
One of the final metrics we thought was important to consider is the potential tendency for armed citizens to injure or kill innocent people in their attempt to “save the day.” A common point in political discussions is to point out the lack of training of most armed citizens and the decrease in safety inherent in their presence during violent encounters.
As you can see below, however, at the 33 incidents at which Armed Citizens were present, there were zero situations at which the Armed Citizen injured or killed an innocent person. It never happened.
BREAKING: Man Opens Fire At Oklahoma Walmart, Confronted By Armed Citizen, Report Says
Two people were killed at a Walmart in Oklahoma by a man who opened fire in the parking lot on Monday before turning the weapon on himself after an armed citizen confronted him.
------
The assailant, who has not yet been identified, shot and killed a man and a woman in the parking lot and when he was “confronted by an armed citizen, he then turned the gun on himself,” The Daily Mail reported.
Wrong,
According to the Centers For Disease Control, Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop violent attacks......1.5 million if you take the number from the Department of Justice research.......
'''armed person shoots gunman'' YAYYYYY YAYYAYYYYAYAY = ????!! do you know how idiotic you sound? '''there are lots of SD uses'''???!!!!!!!! WRONG = because there are mruders EVERYDAY!!!!....we see murders ALL the time in the news and NOT SD uses
..murders are reported ALL the time and NOT SD uses = SO:
1. your stats are bullshit as I have proven and linked many times on USMB
2. you sound so pathetic when someone uses a firerarm for SD use
YAYYYYY YAHAHAHHA&AYAYA an SD use!!!!!!!!!! = you go crazy because it is RARE!!
Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound?--sorry charlieBetter check your math.for every SD use, there are dozens of murders
Guns are used at in self-defense at least 80,000 times per year.
http://vpc.org/studies/justifiable19.pdf (Table 6)
Compare this to 9092 gun-related murders per year.
Expanded Homicide Data Table 8
That's about 9:1 in favor of defensive gun uses.
...EVERYDAY we see murder murder murder murder --by firearms--not even counting non-lethal shootings or firearms used in crime = thousands and thousands
..what we don't see everyday are SD uses
--get it??? murder after murder everyday- no SD uses --then we get ONE SD use and you people SCREAM ''''you see, firearms are good'''
idiocy HAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA
AND the guy still murdered with a firearm - and there were people armed there--so they were not saved by an SD use--so--understand?? even with people armed, the people were not saved by firearms
