Christian bakers who refused cake order for gay wedding forced to close shop

[WorldWatcher]

For private enterprises there shouldnt be anti-discrimination laws.

The government is another matter.

I agree, private business should be able to discriminate based on any criteria they determine fits their business model including race, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation or religion. (And yes I'm serious.)

Public Accommodation laws should apply to government entities and of course bar them from doing business with discriminatory businesses, but private businesses should not be limited.


>>>>

And those businesses can pay the price if their discrimination offends those in the market they serve.

That's free enterprise the way it's supposed to be. the market decides which business lives or dies

Yep.

Liberty and Freedom can be messy at times, but it's the prince to be paid.


>>>>

 

[Skull Pilot]

I think you seem to misunderstand. "Sweet Cakes by Melisa" is not going out of business, they will still be operating under an Oregon Business License and (from the articles I've read) they will still be functioning as a Public Accommodation business because they will continue to advertise to the public. There website is still up and listing the services they offer to the public (Home - Sweet Cakes).

Just because the will be operating out of their home does not change the nature of their business.


I'm sure you remember the NM Photographer case? Elaine's Photopgraphy was operated out of their home, they did not have a studio.



>>>>

Moving from an established retail location to the basement of your home is the death knell of your business.

Of course not. Plenty of businesses are home based and never get beyond that. I know several myself. Some grow into off site locations and still don't open to the public. This could easily grow into an entire Christian network of businesses that aren't open to the public.

Sorry but if i packed up my business and moved it into my front room I'd be out of business.

They obviously had enough business to need a retail shop for years and years now they can't afford the rent and upkeep. They are moving backwards and can't be compared to a business that never grew enough to move out of the spare room and they have no one to blame but themselves



These guys are as good as out of business.

 

[Katzndogz]

I don't see this as a bad thing, but a good thing. It just needs some creative thinking. Gays will simply have to get used to doing business only with those willing to do business with them.

 

[Skull Pilot]

I don't see this as a bad thing, but a good thing. It just needs some creative thinking. Gays will simply have to get used to doing business only with those willing to do business with them.

No, businesses will have to learn to serve the market or pay the price.

That's they way it's always been.

The market and social attitudes are changing if businesses can't change to suit the market because of the owners bigotry then believe me they won't be around much longer.

Some of our best clients are gays or lesbians and I am happy to take their money. But then again I'm not a bigot.

 

[WorldWatcher]

They can keep their vendors, just change the name, or sell to stores who use their own label.

That would be a change to their business model, up until this point there have been no "venders" the bakers sell directly to the public.

They of course are free to change their business model to one where they sell cakes to another bakery and/or store and then the other business does sales.


>>>>

According to the article, they had vendors who has also been the victims of gay hate.

I was referencing the portion of your post where you said "or sell to stores who use their own label." which is a change in their business model from selling to the pubic in general either through retail baking and display or through custom services offered to the public. They could operate under a different business model where they don't take contracts or offer services to the pubic - they could contract with other stores to provide baked goods and not do special orders directly. Basically they could be a vendor to other businesses.

>>>>

 

[WorldWatcher]

I don't see this as a bad thing, but a good thing. It just needs some creative thinking. Gays will simply have to get used to doing business only with those willing to do business with them.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. If they are operating a business (even if it is out of their home), have a business license, and advertise for public sale of goods or services - they still fall under public accommodation laws.



>>>>

 

[Katzndogz]

Moving from an established retail location to the basement of your home is the death knell of your business.

Of course not. Plenty of businesses are home based and never get beyond that. I know several myself. Some grow into off site locations and still don't open to the public. This could easily grow into an entire Christian network of businesses that aren't open to the public.

Sorry but if i packed up my business and moved it into my front room I'd be out of business.

They obviously had enough business to need a retail shop for years and years now they can't afford the rent and upkeep. They are moving backwards and can't be compared to a business that never grew enough to move out of the spare room and they have no one to blame but themselves



These guys are as good as out of business.

My mechanic decided a few years ago that he was never again going to have a black customer. He just had too much trouble from them. He closed up his mechanic shop and went private. He's done better than ever. Relieved of monthly overhead, he was able to drop his prices. He doesn't have to pay for advertising either.

Times are changing. What used to be a detriment is going to end up being a plus. As icing on this particular cake, they won't have employees either.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Of course not. Plenty of businesses are home based and never get beyond that. I know several myself. Some grow into off site locations and still don't open to the public. This could easily grow into an entire Christian network of businesses that aren't open to the public.

Sorry but if i packed up my business and moved it into my front room I'd be out of business.

They obviously had enough business to need a retail shop for years and years now they can't afford the rent and upkeep. They are moving backwards and can't be compared to a business that never grew enough to move out of the spare room and they have no one to blame but themselves



These guys are as good as out of business.

My mechanic decided a few years ago that he was never again going to have a black customer. He just had too much trouble from them. He closed up his mechanic shop and went private. He's done better than ever. Relieved of monthly overhead, he was able to drop his prices. He doesn't have to pay for advertising either.

Times are changing. What used to be a detriment is going to end up being a plus. As icing on this particular cake, they won't have employees either.

Then they'll have to settle for making a lot less money.

Sorry but two people working out of a home without commercial equipment won't be able to produce much.

Just like your shade tree mechanic bigot will make a lot less than he would if he employed a dozen mechanics in a well run business.

And I'm sure he doesn't pay taxes on what he earns now and that's nothing to be praising.

J Paul Getty once said; ""I'd rather have 1% of the effort of 100 men than 100% of my own effort."

That is the essence of owning a business.

 

[Katzndogz]

I don't see this as a bad thing, but a good thing. It just needs some creative thinking. Gays will simply have to get used to doing business only with those willing to do business with them.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. If they are operating a business (even if it is out of their home), have a business license, and advertise for public sale of goods or services - they still fall under public accommodation laws.



>>>>

You are relying too heavily on the web site. It has not been changed, yet. Did you notice that it still has a shot of the store. They will have to make some changes in their advertising. They will probably move out of their home quite quickly and into space where they do the baking but that doesn't mean they have to open their doors to the public.

If it were me, I just would stop baking wedding cakes except by private arrangement. I'd put up a sign that says "State and federal law prohibit the advertisement of wedding cakes".

 

[Katzndogz]

Sorry but if i packed up my business and moved it into my front room I'd be out of business.

They obviously had enough business to need a retail shop for years and years now they can't afford the rent and upkeep. They are moving backwards and can't be compared to a business that never grew enough to move out of the spare room and they have no one to blame but themselves



These guys are as good as out of business.

My mechanic decided a few years ago that he was never again going to have a black customer. He just had too much trouble from them. He closed up his mechanic shop and went private. He's done better than ever. Relieved of monthly overhead, he was able to drop his prices. He doesn't have to pay for advertising either.

Times are changing. What used to be a detriment is going to end up being a plus. As icing on this particular cake, they won't have employees either.

Then they'll have to settle for making a lot less money.

Sorry but two people working out of a home without commercial equipment won't be able to produce much.

Just like your shade tree mechanic bigot will make a lot less than he would if he employed a dozen mechanics in a well run business.

And I'm sure he doesn't pay taxes on what he earns now and that's nothing to be praising.

J Paul Getty once said; ""I'd rather have 1% of the effort of 100 men than 100% of my own effort."

That is the essence of owning a business.

They don't have to stay in their home. They can move to a place where they do the baking and still don't have to open to the public. There are many things they can do to avoid this imposition. All of them ending up making more money than they did with a single retail outlet.

 

[WorldWatcher]

I don't see this as a bad thing, but a good thing. It just needs some creative thinking. Gays will simply have to get used to doing business only with those willing to do business with them.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. If they are operating a business (even if it is out of their home), have a business license, and advertise for public sale of goods or services - they still fall under public accommodation laws.



>>>>

You are relying too heavily on the web site. It has not been changed, yet. Did you notice that it still has a shot of the store. They will have to make some changes in their advertising. They will probably move out of their home quite quickly and into space where they do the baking but that doesn't mean they have to open their doors to the public.

If it were me, I just would stop baking wedding cakes except by private arrangement. I'd put up a sign that says "State and federal law prohibit the advertisement of wedding cakes".

#1 The already made cakes by "private arrangement", people came in, they ordered a cake, they discussed the design with the owner, the owner sold the cake. I'm not sure why, while operating legally under an Oregon Business license as a public business you think "private arrangments" weren't already made. They would need to close shop, relinquish their license, and re-incorporate under a private club concept - then they could restrict sales to bonefide members.

#2 Why would a Christian couple lie about advertising? No State of Federal law prohibits them from advertising about wedding cakes.



>>>>

 

[BDBoop]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. If they are operating a business (even if it is out of their home), have a business license, and advertise for public sale of goods or services - they still fall under public accommodation laws.



>>>>

You are relying too heavily on the web site. It has not been changed, yet. Did you notice that it still has a shot of the store. They will have to make some changes in their advertising. They will probably move out of their home quite quickly and into space where they do the baking but that doesn't mean they have to open their doors to the public.

If it were me, I just would stop baking wedding cakes except by private arrangement. I'd put up a sign that says "State and federal law prohibit the advertisement of wedding cakes".

#1 The already made cakes by "private arrangement", people came in, they ordered a cake, they discussed the design with the owner, the owner sold the cake. I'm not sure why, while operating legally under an Oregon Business license as a public business you think "private arrangments" weren't already made. They would need to close shop, relinquish their license, and re-incorporate under a private club concept - then they could restrict sales to bonefide members.

#2 Why would a Christian couple lie about advertising? No State of Federal law prohibits them from advertising about wedding cakes.



>>>>

It's the only way they can discriminate.

 

[eagle7_31]

TODD'S AMERICAN DISPATCH: Christian bakery closes after LGBT threats, protests | Fox News

threats are something else.

 

[Redfish]

TODD'S AMERICAN DISPATCH: Christian bakery closes after LGBT threats, protests | Fox News

threats are something else.

This is what we have become. Political correctness is more important than freedom.

 

[Skull Pilot]

My mechanic decided a few years ago that he was never again going to have a black customer. He just had too much trouble from them. He closed up his mechanic shop and went private. He's done better than ever. Relieved of monthly overhead, he was able to drop his prices. He doesn't have to pay for advertising either.

Times are changing. What used to be a detriment is going to end up being a plus. As icing on this particular cake, they won't have employees either.

Then they'll have to settle for making a lot less money.

Sorry but two people working out of a home without commercial equipment won't be able to produce much.

Just like your shade tree mechanic bigot will make a lot less than he would if he employed a dozen mechanics in a well run business.

And I'm sure he doesn't pay taxes on what he earns now and that's nothing to be praising.

J Paul Getty once said; ""I'd rather have 1% of the effort of 100 men than 100% of my own effort."

That is the essence of owning a business.

They don't have to stay in their home. They can move to a place where they do the baking and still don't have to open to the public. There are many things they can do to avoid this imposition. All of them ending up making more money than they did with a single retail outlet.

Maybe but that's not the gist I got from the link. They took a huge financial hit so they had to close down the shop. There was no mention of any other plan so I doubt they have one.

But it was their own fault so I don't have much sympathy for them

 

[bendog]

Sooooo, Lester Maddux had a constitutional right to not serve blacks fried chicken in his restaurant? Frankly, I though so, but courts found otherwise.

I certainly don't agree with threats of violence, or violence, but I'm just trying to figure out where the fault lines are. And,

Former Southern Baptist Leader Calls for Boycott of Pat Robertson on EthicsDaily.com

So, I'm left wondering why anyone criticizes GLBT organizations from boycotting the bakery, and getting a list of the bakery's customers who cater and telling them to either quit doing biz with the bakery or face similar boycot. People have a right to free speech and to urge others to take some action.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Sooooo, Lester Maddux had a constitutional right to not serve blacks fried chicken in his restaurant? Frankly, I though so, but courts found otherwise.

I certainly don't agree with threats of violence, or violence, but I'm just trying to figure out where the fault lines are. And,

Former Southern Baptist Leader Calls for Boycott of Pat Robertson on EthicsDaily.com

So, I'm left wondering why anyone criticizes GLBT organizations from boycotting the bakery, and getting a list of the bakery's customers who cater and telling them to either quit doing biz with the bakery or face similar boycot. People have a right to free speech and to urge others to take some action.

Well then, to what degree of speech are businesses allowed to exercise, if I may ask?

 

[bendog]

Sooooo, Lester Maddux had a constitutional right to not serve blacks fried chicken in his restaurant? Frankly, I though so, but courts found otherwise.

I certainly don't agree with threats of violence, or violence, but I'm just trying to figure out where the fault lines are. And,

Former Southern Baptist Leader Calls for Boycott of Pat Robertson on EthicsDaily.com

So, I'm left wondering why anyone criticizes GLBT organizations from boycotting the bakery, and getting a list of the bakery's customers who cater and telling them to either quit doing biz with the bakery or face similar boycot. People have a right to free speech and to urge others to take some action.

Well then, to what degree of speech are businesses allowed to exercise, if I may ask?

According to the Supreme Court, it is unlimited. I would say that the amount of money that can be expended in an election can be limited on per capita, or company or union basis. But the SC has held otherwise ... for now.

And my personal view is Lester Maddux should have able to deny service, as should the christian bakers. But apparantly, courts disagree. But, all have a right to boycott.

 

[JakeStarkey]

No, free speech is not unlimited, but extends a long, long way.

Counter boycotts are fine. Nacogdoches witnessed that against Stripling's Drug Store back in the 1970s.

Threats of violence or personal retaliation are something else.

 

[shintao]

TODD'S AMERICAN DISPATCH: Christian bakery closes after LGBT threats, protests | Fox News

threats are something else.

Oh my!! Christians are so, so passively sensitive to those that would use the 1st Amendment. lol!! What threat?