Zone1 Catholics (real ones) do NOT go against Scripture or add to it. It's a lie.

[hadit]

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Are they with the rest of the family at the ballgame? Another question, is how many decisions do parents make for their children? Does the child decide when to go to school or what s/he wants to learn in school? Does the child even decide on his own bedtime? Do we wait to read to a child until the child is old enough to decide what s/he wants to hear? Do parents wait until a child is old enough to decide whether he wants to meet his grandparents, his aunts and uncles, and cousins? Or, being an actual member of the family, all of the above is a given for parents to decide?

We understand that growing up in a church going family doesn't make a person a Christian. We understand that having Christian parents doesn't make you a Christian. We understand it is an individual choice that each person must make, whether to follow Christ or not. Because of that, baptizing a child doesn't make that child a Christian, any more than putting a tiny baseball uniform on a baby makes it a baseball player.

All along, I've been saying it is fine for people to choose to wait to baptize their child, and that I have no problem with it. All I have been doing is presenting why Catholics baptize babies--and have been ripped up one side and down the other for Catholic (and my) choice. And for even presenting these reasons, I am the one accused of being mean.

Like I said, it comes down to what baptism means. Obviously, it means something different to Catholics than it does to non-Catholics. Non-Catholics believe it's tightly related to repentance because of passages like this one:

Acts 2:38

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

 

[Meriweather]

We understand that growing up in a church going family doesn't make a person a Christian. We understand that having Christian parents doesn't make you a Christian. We understand it is an individual choice that each person must make, whether to follow Christ or not. Because of that, baptizing a child doesn't make that child a Christian, any more than putting a tiny baseball uniform on a baby makes it a baseball player.

Is it understood that a child who was never introduced to baseball won't be prepared to play baseball as an adult?

Like I said, it comes down to what baptism means. Obviously, it means something different to Catholics than it does to non-Catholics. Non-Catholics believe it's tightly related to repentance because of passages like this one:

And that is why I keep making the point that Catholics are fine with what non-Catholic parents choose for their children. Catholics have great faith in Jesus' words that sins are forgiven. We also have great faith in the power of the Holy Spirit which comes with baptism. We believe that with baptism we are full members of a family--the family of the Body of Christ.

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Exactly. Babies receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. I know I did. As I've already said more than once, some workers came into the vineyard as the day dawned. Others didn't enter until nearly sunset. All received the same wage...which compares to all being loved equally. There is no reason to be upset over babies being baptized. There is no need to defend the choice of a later baptism as that choice is not being attacked or even criticized by Catholics. It's just not the way we or early Christians did it.

 

[hadit]

Is it understood that a child who was never introduced to baseball won't be prepared to play baseball as an adult?

And we raise our children to be prepared to be Christians when they can decide to follow Christ, but they are not followers of Christ until they DECIDE to follow Him. Continuing your baseball analogy, we can take babies to the park, we can enroll children in Little League, we can teach them everything there is to know about baseball, but they are not professional baseball players until they are old enough to know what it means to be one and continue on with the game. IOW, they can walk away and turn out to not be baseball players at all. Only those who love the game and DECIDE to invest their entire being into it can become professional players. All others are just playing at it. Likewise with Christ. You can't PLAY with Christ, you're either all in or you're not, and many will find to their dismay that they are not.

And that is why I keep making the point that Catholics are fine with what non-Catholic parents choose for their children. Catholics have great faith in Jesus' words that sins are forgiven. We also have great faith in the power of the Holy Spirit which comes with baptism. We believe that with baptism we are full members of a family--the family of the Body of Christ.

Exactly. Babies receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. I know I did.

But you did not and could not repent, so you can't really claim that verse for yourself. And, yes, John the Baptist leaped in his mother's womb when Mary came to visit. He was chosen for a special purpose.

As I've already said more than once, some workers came into the vineyard as the day dawned. Others didn't enter until nearly sunset. All received the same wage...which compares to all being loved equally. There is no reason to be upset over babies being baptized. There is no need to defend the choice of a later baptism as that choice is not being attacked or even criticized by Catholics. It's just not the way we or early Christians did it.

It comes down to what makes a person a Christian, a follower of Christ. We believe it has to be a decision made by someone who understands what it means. You seem to be saying that it can be imposed on someone when they have no idea what's going on. Can you forcibly baptize an adult and expect them to be a Christian?

 

[Meriweather]

And we raise our children to be prepared to be Christians when they can decide to follow Christ

No one is claiming you do not.

But you did not and could not repent, so you can't really claim that verse for yourself. And, yes, John the Baptist leaped in his mother's womb when Mary came to visit. He was chosen for a special purpose.

The household, which I was now a member of, already had. You will recall scripture telling of everyone in the household being baptized. Catholics seem to see themselves as a community of God, as the Body of Christ. Your post and others make it appear that in some other Christian denominations it is every individual on his own with God.

It comes down to what makes a person a Christian, a follower of Christ. We believe it has to be a decision made by someone who understands what it means. You seem to be saying that it can be imposed on someone when they have no idea what's going on. Can you forcibly baptize an adult and expect them to be a Christian?

Catholics grow up with repentance. The first thing that is rejected in the baby's life is disobedience to God, and the first thing accepted is life in the Kingdom. Catholics grow up learning to turn away from sin. There is no year down the line where we choose to turn away from our sins and to Christ. We're already there. Those who want their children to wait and make use of their own free will, do so--and without criticism from Catholics.

 

[hadit]

No one is claiming you do not.

The household, which I was now a member of, already had. You will recall scripture telling of everyone in the household being baptized. Catholics seem to see themselves as a community of God, as the Body of Christ. Your post and others make it appear that in some other Christian denominations it is every individual on his own with God.

Do you seriously believe God will take into account whether Grandma was a devout Catholic when He passes judgement on a person? Yes, we all stand before God to be individually judged. The community helps us, prays for us, but understands that they can't make us be Christians without our consent.

Catholics grow up with repentance. The first thing that is rejected in the baby's life is disobedience to God, and the first thing accepted is life in the Kingdom. Catholics grow up learning to turn away from sin. There is no year down the line where we choose to turn away from our sins and to Christ. We're already there. Those who want their children to wait and make use of their own free will, do so--and without criticism from Catholics.

Our children grow up with the same understanding, and if a young child says to us that they want to receive Christ into their heart, we rejoice and pray with them. We do baptism later on as a public statement that they are making as someone who is old enough to understand what they are doing. Remember, it wasn't really that long ago that a person getting re-baptized as an adult faced persecution for doing so, so they'd BETTER understand what they're getting into.

Again, it comes down to what makes a person a Christian. A sacrament imposed on them when they are totally unable to comprehend what is going on does not, any more than a ceremony performed over a person in a coma can make them a Christian, justified before God.

 

[Meriweather]

Do you seriously believe God will take into account whether Grandma was a devout Catholic when He passes judgement on a person? Yes, we all stand before God to be individually judged. The community helps us, prays for us, but understands that they can't make us be Christians without our consent.

Again, going back to Genesis: The disobedience of Adam and Eve (the parents) affected their children. The power of disobedience of the parent's disobedience was that strong.

Two thousand years ago, Jesus' obedience resulted in redemption and salvation for the whole world. God is our Father and his work and I believe his work and actions are more powerful than the actions of Adam and Eve. I was born into a household of God as Father, and it is my Father who will judge me, who helps me, who is at my side. This no more required my consent than being born to my earthly parents required my consent. It simply is. Again, if parents who wish for their children to wait to join in this family and be full members of the community until they can determine who it is they belong to, that is their call.

Again, it comes down to what makes a person a Christian. A sacrament imposed on them when they are totally unable to comprehend what is going on does not, any more than a ceremony performed over a person in a coma can make them a Christian, justified before God.

"Makes" them Christian? Are you serious?

 

[buttercup]

Again, it comes down to what makes a person a Christian. A sacrament imposed on them when they are totally unable to comprehend what is going on does not, any more than a ceremony performed over a person in a coma can make them a Christian, justified before God.

Exactly, but just to add... what is harmful about that religious ceremony is that many Catholics wrongly believe that their spiritual fate is secure and they're going to heaven simply because they were baptized as an infant. Which leads me to wonder, what power of this world was behind all of these very common but very false doctrines? Who would mislead people in such a way?

 

[hadit]

Again, going back to Genesis: The disobedience of Adam and Eve (the parents) affected their children. The power of disobedience of the parent's disobedience was that strong.

Two thousand years ago, Jesus' obedience resulted in redemption and salvation for the whole world. God is our Father and his work and I believe his work and actions are more powerful than the actions of Adam and Eve. I was born into a household of God as Father, and it is my Father who will judge me, who helps me, who is at my side. This no more required my consent than being born to my earthly parents required my consent. It simply is. Again, if parents who wish for their children to wait to join in this family and be full members of the community until they can determine who it is they belong to, that is their call.



"Makes" them Christian? Are you serious?

I am deadly serious. It sounds like you're saying that God will overlook sin and simply accept everyone into His house, in contradiction to Scripture. Is that what you believe?

 

[hadit]

Exactly, but just to add... what is harmful about that religious ceremony is that many Catholics wrongly believe that their spiritual fate is secure and they're going to heaven simply because they were baptized as an infant. Which leads me to wonder, what power of this world was behind all of these very common but very false doctrines? Who would mislead people in such a way?

That's where I'm coming out in this discussion, and it terrifies me to think of how many people will find that out to their detriment.

 

[Meriweather]

Exactly, but just to add... what is harmful about that religious ceremony is that many Catholics wrongly believe that their spiritual fate is secure and they're going to heaven simply because they were baptized as an infant. Which leads me to wonder, what power of this world was behind all of these very common but very false doctrines? Who would mislead people in such a way?

Who is misleading whom? It has never been Catholic teaching let alone Catholic belief that the baptized are going to heaven. That smacks of the "Once saved always saved" which Catholics reject. Catholics respect God's judgment which takes place in the next life.

Oh, and by the way...I accept all your most recent "fake news" forfeits.

 

[Meriweather]

I am deadly serious. It sounds like you're saying that God will overlook sin and simply accept everyone into His house, in contradiction to Scripture. Is that what you believe?

God does not overlook sin, he forgives sin. Or, are you suggesting God does not forgive sin? Baptism is the very essence of turning away from disobedience to God, and that the baptized will be trained in obedience to God and repentance of sin. Are you saying your children have no need to learn and follow repentance until after they are baptized?

This game you introduced is unworthy of both of us.

 

[hadit]

God does not overlook sin, he forgives sin. Or, are you suggesting God does not forgive sin?

That's a dumb question and unworthy of answer.

Baptism is the very essence of turning away from disobedience to God, and that the baptized will be trained in obedience to God and repentance of sin. Are you saying your children have no need to learn and follow repentance until after they are baptized?

Of course not, they are trained to know what sin is and what repentance is. When they are publicly baptized they know what a life that follows Christ looks like.

This game you introduced is unworthy of both of us.

You didn't answer a very basic question. Do you believe that most of mankind will spend eternity separated from God?

 

[Meriweather]

That's a dumb question and unworthy of answer.

I accept your admission that you started this with your dumb question. Hopefully you now know how I felt.

 

[hadit]

I accept your admission that you started this with your dumb question. Hopefully you now know how I felt.

Can salvation be imposed on someone who is incapable of understanding what is going on? Do you think the most innocent among us, the newly born, are born again as Christ said we must be when they are baptized?

 

[buttercup]

Who is misleading whom? It has never been Catholic teaching let alone Catholic belief that the baptized are going to heaven. That smacks of the "Once saved always saved" which Catholics reject. Catholics respect God's judgment which takes place in the next life.

Oh, and by the way...I accept all your most recent "fake news" forfeits.

I didn't claim that the Catholic church teaches that. I said that is what many Catholics wrongly believe.

So regardless of what the Catholic church teaches or does not teach, there are Catholics who believe they are going to heaven, simply because they were baptized as an infant, or because they went through the 'sacraments', which is NOT the truth.

 

[Meriweather]

Can salvation be imposed on someone who is incapable of understanding what is going on? Do you think the most innocent among us, the newly born, are born again as Christ said we must be when they are baptized?

Catholics believe two thousand years ago Christ redeemed the entire world and opened the way of salvation to all. Therefore, Catholics do not say to their children, "You will have to wait until your older to join us in the Body of Christ and in the Way of Salvation." Catholics are living salvation and we take our children along with us. We are not leaving them behind and we are not leaving them in the waiting room to join the Body of Christ. Christ already redeemed these children and opened the way of salvation and our children's walk begins with us--we don't wait. Let the children come to me...

 

[Meriweather]

So regardless of what the Catholic church teaches or does not teach, there are Catholics who believe they are going to heaven, simply because they were baptized as an infant, or because they went through the 'sacraments', which is NOT the truth.

And regardless of what you say, I have never heard any Catholic or former Catholic espouse such nonsense. Rumors and gossip benefit no one and no one participating or passing it along looks good either.

 

[buttercup]

And regardless of what you say, I have never heard any Catholic or former Catholic espouse such nonsense. Rumors and gossip benefit no one and no one participating or passing it along looks good either.

Are you telling me I haven't heard those things from Catholics? Because I have, and I could bring up specific examples.

But since you seem to be the expert on Catholicism, for now I'll set aside those things I've heard from other people, and let you tell us what YOU believe about salvation, in your own words.

Based on what you've learned from the Catholic Church, how does one become a Christian / child of God, who is going to heaven when they die?

 

[buttercup]

Can salvation be imposed on someone who is incapable of understanding what is going on? Do you think the most innocent among us, the newly born, are born again as Christ said we must be when they are baptized?

This is something that I've been thinking is worthy of a thread of its own.

The bottom line, it seems that that Catholics have a very different belief about salvation... which is disturbing, because it's a very important matter, and one that people need to get right. But I just asked Meriweather to clearly state her view, so... depending on what she says, maybe someone should start a new thread on this particular topic.

 

[Meriweather]

Are you telling me I haven't heard those things from Catholics? Because I have, and I could bring up specific examples.

No. I am suggesting you know what you heard is not true, and passing it along is no more fitting than gossip. Ignorance knows no bounds in any subject including any faith. Ignorance does not need a platform nor a microphone.

Based on what you've learned from the Catholic Church, how does one become a Christian / child of God, who is going to heaven when they die?

Catholic teaching is that when anyone dies, they are in the hands of a merciful and loving God.

Catholicism teaches the Way of Salvation as passed onto us by Christ and the Apostles. We are taught this Way of Salvation (living in the Kingdom) is an eternal way that extends beyond death. Catholics begin Kingdom living and the Way of Salvation today in this life--no waiting for death for entry into it. The Catholic Catechism is clear that it is her business the proclaim the good news and assist people in this life--it is not for any Church or any human to decide who enters heaven, as that judgment is for God alone--and that God is merciful and loving.