Capitalism or Communism? Is communism really that horrible?

[LibertyLemming]

What does it mean to be the "father"? Like the first guy who ever thought "i think free people should be allowed to have weapons"? TJ certainly advocated an armed citizenry and there are countless documents and quotations to prove this:

No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
Proposed Virginia Constitution, June, 1776.
The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves, ... or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property, and freedom of the press.
Letter to Major John Cartwright (5 June 1824).

A ton of people influenced the idea, the text itself was changed countless times by numerous committees. There is hardly one person that deserves 100% of the credit.

 

[JakeStarkey]

What does it mean to be the "father"? Like the first guy who ever thought "i think free people should be allowed to have weapons"? TJ certainly advocated an armed citizenry and there are countless documents and quotations to prove this:

No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
Proposed Virginia Constitution, June, 1776.
The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves, ... or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property, and freedom of the press.
Letter to Major John Cartwright (5 June 1824).

A ton of people influenced the idea, the text itself was changed countless times by numerous committees. There is hardly one person that deserves 100% of the credit.

Now show that TJ is the father of the 2d Amendment, as Uncensored suggested.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Uncensored, of all the posters here, except bripat, can never be trusted with broad statements.

Let him provide objective evidence that TJ is the Father of the 2d Amendment. This oughta be good.

Jakematters, you are a paid Soros monkey. You have nothing to offer this, or any forum.

So why don't you do everyone a favor, and fuck off?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Thank you for confirming that you do not have any evidence that TJ is the father of the 2d Amendment, Uncensored.

You are such a fart monkey, son.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Now show that TJ is the father of the 2d Amendment, as Uncensored suggested.

You're such a stupid little monkey.

Original text, sent by Thomas Jefferson to James Madison;

"A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, being the best security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; but no one religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person."

Second Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikiquote

Final text by William Lambert;

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Mason wrote in the Virginia constitution, prior to the founding of the naiton;

"That the People have a right to keep and bear Arms; that a well regulated Militia, composed of the Body of the People, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe Defence of a free state. "

 

[LibertyLemming]

Thank you for confirming that you do not have any evidence that TJ is the father of the 2d Amendment, Uncensored.

You are such a fart monkey, son.

Why didn't you answer my question? WTF does it mean to be the father of something? If it means putting forward the idea beforehand and others knowing you did, then sure. You could call literally hundreds of people the father. Do you want the guy who literally put pen to paper, because I doubt you've heard of him.

 

[regent]

why didn't the writers of the second amendment include your premise that the purpose of the amendment was so citizens could protect us from government?

way too stupid but 100% liberal. The entire purpose of the Bill of Rights was to protect us from government!!


"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government"

-- Thomas Jefferson, 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334


Alexander Hamilton: "...that standing army can never be formidable (threatening) to the liberties
of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in the use of arms."
(Federalist Paper #29)

"Little more can be aimed at with respect to the people at large than to have them properly armed
and equipped." (Id) {responding to the claim that the militia itself could threaten liberty}" There is
something so far-fetched, and so extravagant in the idea of danger of liberty from the militia that one
is at a loss whether to treat it with gravity or raillery (mockery). (Id)

Topic #3:
MODERN LEADERS THOUGHTS ON GUN CONTROL:

Adolf Hitler: "This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun
registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead."
(Chancelor's Speech, 1935)

Jefferson and Hamilton's quotes are opinions of two men early in our history; they are not laws. Why didn't Madison include them in the amendment?
As to Hitler, I have the feeling that sometime Hitler lied. Do you accept hitler's words as the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Nope, your sources, including the Cartwright letter, offer no proof. You lose again.

However, your Wiki offered this:

Misattributed

The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it.
Falsely attributed to Thomas Jefferson; first reported in Matt Carson, On A Hill They Call Capital: A Revolution Is Coming* (2007), p. 131. Not found prior to 2007.
When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

Falsely attributed to Thomas Jefferson; first attributed to Jefferson in Gyeorgos C. Hatonn, It's All in the Game: Butterflies, Mind Control--The Razor's Edge* (1994), p. 214. A 1912 issue of The American Anti-socialist attributes the re-ordered form, "Where the people fear the government you have tyranny. Where the government fears the people you have liberty", to John Basil Barnhill.
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

Falsely attributed to Thomas Jefferson; first attributed in The Southern Partisan* (1992), p. 3. Not found prior to 1992; debunked in D. J. Mulloy, American Extremism: History, Politics and the Militia Movement* (2004), p. 115.
Laws that forbid the carrying of arms. . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.
Cesare Beccaria, On Crimes and Punishments, 1764, Chapter 40 [2].
Has been falsely attributed to Thomas Jefferson. Jefferson transcribed this passage (in the original Italian) in his Legal Commonplace Book, item 828.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Jefferson and Hamilton's quotes are opinions of two men early in our history; they are not laws. Why didn't Madison include them in the amendment?
As to Hitler, I have the feeling that sometime Hitler lied. Do you accept hitler's words as the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

As I pointed out earlier, the proposal was by Jefferson, based on similar text by Mason, and the final draft penned by Lambert.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The ultra right and libertarian wacks are far closer to Hitler than Jefferson.

 

[Uncensored2008]

The ultra right and libertarian wacks are far closer to Hitler than Jefferson.

Soros is wasting his money paying you, seriously.

 

[LibertyLemming]

Yeah bet you can't prove that.

 

[Londoner]

The historical Christ opposed Roman power and the monied elite. In his treatment of the poor he is a lot closer to Marx than the GOP leadership understands. Of course, they use Christ to cajole red state America into the voting booth. Reagan was estranged from his children, and he passed the most liberal abortion policy in California's history. He never stepped foot in a church until he realized that the GOP needed the south and heartland to win elections. [of course, you can't tell republican voters this because they idolize their Washington leaders (like Reagan) more than the rest of us (who know that politicians lie about their values to get elected).]

 

[JakeStarkey]

Jefferson and Hamilton's quotes are opinions of two men early in our history; they are not laws. Why didn't Madison include them in the amendment?
As to Hitler, I have the feeling that sometime Hitler lied. Do you accept hitler's words as the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

As I pointed out earlier, the proposal was by Jefferson, based on similar text by Mason, and the final draft penned by Lambert.

Yup, an unproved claim. Lots of unproved and falsely attributed claims about TJ and the 2d.

 

[LibertyLemming]

Jake what are your thoughts on the 2nd Amendment? Do you think that despite not taking away any weapons from the citizens in their time of power, they would advocate doing so now?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Jake what are your thoughts on the 2nd Amendment? Do you think that despite not taking away any weapons from the citizens in their time of power, they would advocate doing so now?

Who are "they" for starters?

 

[LibertyLemming]

Jake what are your thoughts on the 2nd Amendment? Do you think that despite not taking away any weapons from the citizens in their time of power, they would advocate doing so now?

Who are "they" for starters?

They being the people behind the Constitution and Bill of Rights, many of whom, ended up being some of young government's earliest politicians.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Jake what are your thoughts on the 2nd Amendment? Do you think that despite not taking away any weapons from the citizens in their time of power, they would advocate doing so now?

Who are "they" for starters?

They being the people behind the Constitution and Bill of Rights, many of whom, ended up being some of young government's earliest politicians.

What type of "any" weapons is part of the question, LL. Dan Shays and those in his rebellion, a couple of years before and one of the reasons the Constitutional convention was held, went after the armory in Springfield, Mass, because the regular folks did not have cannon, among other arms. That tells us such weapons were kept by the militia,not the regular folks.

The militias of the various states were organized after the creation of the new country, with armories in which excess supplies of muskets, pistols, bayonets, gunpowder, uniforms, and cannon were stockpiled. I know of no individual citizen who was granted his own cannon. There might be exceptions but they would be far and very few.

2013: (1) no one in government is trying to revoke the 2d Amendment, which is good. (2) Some in government and millions of citizens are asking why citizens need high performance rifles with 100 round magazines. (3) Some in government and millions of citizens are saying that background checks are needed on 100% of purchases and gun ownership should be regularized.

Do you agree with me this far that these are the boundaries right now of the discussion.

 

[LibertyLemming]

Who are "they" for starters?

They being the people behind the Constitution and Bill of Rights, many of whom, ended up being some of young government's earliest politicians.

What type of "any" weapons is part of the question, LL. Dan Shays and those in his rebellion, a couple of years before and one of the reasons the Constitutional convention was held, went after the armory in Springfield, Mass, because the regular folks did not have cannon, among other arms. That tells us such weapons were kept by the militia,not the regular folks.

The militias of the various states were organized after the creation of the new country, with armories in which excess supplies of muskets, pistols, bayonets, gunpowder, uniforms, and cannon were stockpiled. I know of no individual citizen who was granted his own cannon. There might be exceptions but they would be far and very few.

2013: (1) no one in government is trying to revoke the 2d Amendment, which is good. (2) Some in government and millions of citizens are asking why citizens need high performance rifles with 100 round magazines. (3) Some in government and millions of citizens are saying that background checks are needed on 100% of purchases and gun ownership should be regularized.

Do you agree with me this far that these are the boundaries right now of the discussion.

Cannons were legal and privately owned. Anyone who could afford one and had the desire was able to acquire one. There were even privately owned naval warships that the government would lease. The best part of Shay's rebellion was that a private militia stopped the rebels from robbing the Springfield Armory.

As for your plans for 2013, no, I don't agree.

1) if it says don't infringe and you're infringing... well.. plus it appears some of this is going to be done via Executive Order bypassing the Congress that, as you're so fond of saying, "we the people" elected. Kings make unilateral decisions, not Presidents of free nations.

As for the rest. You are entitled to your opinion. There is no concrete evidence that supports gun control. There is no concrete evidence that supports forced gun ownership by every citizen. Sometimes crime goes up and sometimes it goes down. I don't want to give up my freedom to defend myself from anything.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The government regulated privateers and cannons for individuals.

The militia belong to Springfield and had been called out by the authorities. There was no private militia.

You are entitled to your wrong opinion about "infringe." Obama has no EO power to ban guns so I am not worried about that.

You will obey the legislatures, national and state, on these matters. Choices have consequences.