CAP AND TRADE - Coming to your state soon?

Discussion in 'Environment' started by Foxfyre, Apr 28, 2010.

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What effect will Cap and Trade most likely have?

  1. It is necessary to combat climate change and promote a changeover to clean energy.

    2 vote(s)
    13.3%
  2. It won't help but will hurt the economy and violate our rights.

    12 vote(s)
    80.0%
  3. It won't have much effect on anybody at all.

    1 vote(s)
    6.7%
  1. Foxfyre
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    Foxfyre Eternal optimist Supporting Member

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    The news this morning on Fox, CNN, and MSNBC all reported that the next initiatives of the Obama Administration would be illegal immigration and the energy bill, i.e. CAP and TRADE. Harry Reid has said the Senate will probably deal with Cap and Trade first.

    Proponents of Cap and Trade say it is essential to combat climate change, promote research and production of clean energy, and develop new technologies.

    Opponents cite severe economic consequences, loss of American (or other national) sovereignty, and more infringement of choices, options, opportunities (i.e. rights.)

    Keeping it civil will be much appreciated but discuss.

    Some initial food for thought (excerpted):

     
  2. Old Rocks
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    Old Rocks Gold Member

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    Cap and trade worked for sulphate emmissions. However, I think that even with cap and trade, the effects of the GHGs will become severe enough that by the time the policy is in position, much more draconian measures will be taken. To not much avail. At least 30 years inertia in the system.
     
  3. Foxfyre
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    Foxfyre Eternal optimist Supporting Member

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    Cap & Trade worked for sulphur emissions? Could you elaborate on that further?

    I do know that the former administration banned sulphur from a lot of energy sources such as diesel fuel (which accounts for the astronomical high prices for diesel ever since.)

    But I am unfamiliar with a cap and trade sulphur policy. But I am prepared to be educated on that.
     
  4. Old Rocks
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    Old Rocks Gold Member

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    http://www.epa.gov/AIRMARKET/cap-trade/docs/ctresults.pdf

    The Acid Rain Program was established under Title IV
    of the 1990 Clean Air Act Amendments to reduce acid
    rain and improve public health by dramatically reducing
    emissions of SO2 and NOx. Using a market-based cap
    and trade approach, the program sets a permanent cap
    on the total amount of SO2 that may be emitted by
    electric power plants nationwide. The cap is set at about
    one half of the amount of SO2 emitted in 1980, and the
    trading component allows flexibility for sources to select
    the method of compliance. The program also sets NOx
    emission limitations for coal-fired units with some
    compliance flexibility, representing about a 27 percent
    reduction from 1990 levels.
     
  5. Old Rocks
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    Old Rocks Gold Member

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  6. Foxfyre
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    Foxfyre Eternal optimist Supporting Member

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    Very interesting and a good find O.R. Thanks.
    The 1990 definition of "Cap and trade" seems somewhat different that what the Obama Administration is proposing though. In 1990, companies could select various means of compliance. The way I understand it, in 2010, companies can sell the emissions they don't emit to some other company who will then emit them.

    I don't think that's the same thing.
     
  7. Old Rocks
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    Old Rocks Gold Member

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    Close to the same, harder to enforce. The suphate emissions usually settled within a few hundred miles of the source, the CO2 affects all the world.

    The reason that I do not think they will be effective is that the effects we are seeing right now from AGW were predicted to happen 20 to 100 years from now. If this continues, only an outright, and rapidly declining cap will do any good, and only decades in the future. From past observation, there is about 30 years or more heating from the present GHGs in the atmosphere. There is that much inertia in the system.
     
  8. Foxfyre
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    Foxfyre Eternal optimist Supporting Member

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    Well I respect your opinion about that as much as I can't yet agree with it Rocks. :)

    I shall return tomorrow with some additional ammo though.

    Good night sweet prince.
     
  9. Foxfyre
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    Foxfyre Eternal optimist Supporting Member

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    Okay, so far little response here. Let's try a new tack.

    In my opinion, Cap and Trade is an initiative proposed by the U.S. Federal Government for the purpose of imposing the largest tax ever known to humankind while further stripping away many of the unalienable rights, choices, options, and opportunities of the people.

    Even as we speak there are many groups, apparently invisible to the media, who are working toward that end. Groups such as Chicago Climate Change and others.

    I want somebody to change my opinion about that. Can you?
     
  10. tommywho70x
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    tommywho70x BANNED

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    does anybody have any info on "Chicago Climate Exchange" a business set up solely for trading in emissions (which really seems strange to me --- what kind of product is that?)

    apparently this company stockholders include goldman-sachs, al gore and barack obama.
     
  11. Foxfyre
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    Foxfyre Eternal optimist Supporting Member

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    BigFitz put me onto that group. I had been unaware of it, but after reading up, it is defijnitely a player.

    Here's their website:

    Chicago Climate Exchange

    Edit to welcome Tommy to USMB. :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2010
  12. Skull Pilot
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    Skull Pilot Gold Member

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    Cap and tax will be the largest government theft of private wealth in history.

    Government control over the people in both business and private lives is the desired end to this inane bill.

    Why is it that no one in government can see that taxing us to death to fund some sort of ultra large make work green energy program will do nothing but leave us all poorer and our landscape uglier.

    Why is it the every so called green energy project calls for sacrificing acres and acres of land to the detriment of both wildlife and beauty when simpler and more effective conservation and energy production strategies can be implemented under a plan that actually benefits people rather that taxing them into oblivion?

    Why do we need thousands of square acres of solar panels uglifying our deserts and open spaces when all we need to do is place solar panels on every rooftop and tie them into the grid?

    What if electric utilities were given a 100% tax credit for every solar panel installed on a rooftop and every person consenting to the installation got a break on their electric bill? Seems to me we would not need multi-billion dollar government projects as eyesores if we did this.

    Small plug and play nuclear reactors could power communities emission free. All we have to do is realize that over 95% of so called nuclear waste is nothing but uranium that can be put right back into the ground or reused. Of the remaining 5% much of that can be used for medical isotopes and other industrial uses leaving a very small amount to be stored as waste.

    After 30 years of using wide spread nuclear power, France stores all its nuclear waste under the floor in one room of the Hague.

    Retrofitting houses with more efficient doors windows and insulation will easily reduce our heating and cooling bills by 30% or more. Replacing older boilers and furnaces with 95% efficient gas units as well as retrofitting ground source heat pumps where applicable will result in more savings. Give businesses and individuals who do this a 100% tax credit to be taken of 7-10 years instead of the minuscule one given today

    Require that all new home construction be done with structurally insulated panels that result not only in more energy efficient homes but also stronger safer homes than 2 by 4 stick construction. Not to mention that these panels are made from scrap wood and weed trees that are more easily sustainable resulting in less deforestation.

    Give meaningful tax credits to businesses and individuals who do these things and the government will not have to be made bigger, more expensive and more intrusive. We will all have more money in our pockets and I guarantee the results will be better than if yet another government tax and spend boondoggle is rammed down out throats.
     
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  13. tommywho70x
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    the website doesn't reveal much to someone like me who has no idea how you can do business in emissions allowances.
     
  14. boedicca
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    All Cap and Tax will accomplish is to create another financial instrument in Carbon Credits with which Algore, Goldeman Sachs and a host of political cronies will enrich themselves.

    GS has been salivating over this.
     
  15. Foxfyre
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    Foxfyre Eternal optimist Supporting Member

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    No, and they keep the basics of that pretty well under the media radar too.

    But it works like this.

    Company A emits almost no CO2 in its business processes but it is issued X number of carbon credits it is allowed to emit. That is the assigned 'cap', but it doesn't need anywhere near all those credits.

    Company B emits much more CO2 in its processes than the carbon credits it is allotted.

    Company A trades its leftover carbon credits to Company B who is then able to exceed the 'cap' assigned to it and emit more CO2 without penalty.

    Of course Company B can collect a hefty price for the credits it trades to Company B.

    Company A profits enormously.

    Company B's costs are increased enormously.

    A company like General Electric, for instance, a strong proponent of Cap & Trade and a huge contributor to politicians who support that concept, stands to make hundreds of billions if Cap & Trade passes.

    A relatively small oil company like Conoco Phillips stands to lose many hundreds of millions per year if Cap & Trade passes.

    And of course those in power--our fearless leaders and their surrogrates on the international scene--will have full authority to establish whatever cap they wish to establish on any business they want and greater power to dictate what products they may and may not produce.

    The biggest losers?

    Us.
     
  16. Foxfyre
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    Foxfyre Eternal optimist Supporting Member

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    Skull Pilot up there has just touched on the tip of the iceberg of the unalienable rigthts, choices, opportunities, and options that we can personally lose. And the cost will be enormous.
     
  17. boedicca
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    Posted in another thread - and worth repeating:

    Given the Obama Administration's goal of passing Cap and Trade and its demonization of Wall Street - it's important to understand how Goldman Sachs is actually a big stakeholder in seeing it pass:

    Whether Wall Street colossus Goldman Sachs has committed a crime remains to be seen, but the investigation may well uncover the environmental lobby and its public figurehead. For nearly a decade, Goldman Sachs has been a quiet but major investor in cap and trade. And Goldman’s main investment partner has been Al Gore.

    About a decade ago, Goldman executives recognized that personal fortunes could be made with the invention of a carbon trading system through the passage of a U.S. cap-and-trade bill. This area was well suited to Goldman Sachs, the architects behind the complex world of futures trading and exotic derivatives.

    Goldman joined Al Gore in 2004 and capitalized his investment company, Generation Investment Management. Strangely for a man who was a heartbeat away from the presidency, Gore decided to register his company in London — not the United States.

    In November 2004, Gore unveiled GIM. Standing at his side was David Blood, the CEO of Goldman Asset Management. Blood was to become his co-founder (the new company was quickly nicknamed “Blood & Gore”). It was established with the initial capital of $206 million, much of it from Blood clients at Goldman Sachs.

    Gore also turned to Goldman Sachs guru (and later Bush Treasury Secretary) Henry Paulson to help him establish GIM. At the time, Paulson himself was an eco-warrior of sorts, serving as chairman of the board of the Nature Conservancy.

    Today, seven of Gore’s GIM chief partners are from Goldman Sachs. The company is now valued at $2.2 billion.

    (snip)

    Marc Morano, publisher of Climatedepot.com, agrees:

    Goldman Sachs is helping to engineer the next great bubble. And we are talking about subprime science, subprime politics, and subprime economics. Goldman Sachs is at the forefront of the subprime economics of carbon trading.

    Although cap and trade has temporarily faded in Washington, D.C., carbon trading still lives in the nation’s capital. Next week, Senators John Kerry (D-MA), Lindsey Graham (R-SC), and Joe Lieberman (I-CT) are expected to unveil a new cap-and-trade bill.

    The idea of turning a free, colorless, and odorless gas into a product still attracts the money people. Myron Ebell, director of Freedom Action, says:

    These Gore investments could potentially make him a billionaire. For a guy who started with just a small fortune he could end up with a very large one.


    Pajamas Media Will Obama’s Goldman Sachs Attack Expose Al Gore? Or Other Dems?
     
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    Last edited: Apr 30, 2010
  18. Foxfyre
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    Foxfyre Eternal optimist Supporting Member

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    You know, I expect bills like that to be introduced by liberal airheads like Kerry.

    But it is galling when it is somebody who purports to be a good conservative playing into their hand that way.

    Lindsey Graham needs to go at the earliest opportunity.
     
  19. Old Rocks
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    We will replace him with a Progressive Democrat:lol:
     
  20. Foxfyre
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    Foxfyre Eternal optimist Supporting Member

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    Well pick one who will admit that he or she is a Progressive Democrat and we will at least have somebody in the office with some ideological integrity.
     

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