CAP AND TRADE - Coming to your state soon?

Discussion in 'Environment' started by Foxfyre, Apr 28, 2010.

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What effect will Cap and Trade most likely have?

  1. It is necessary to combat climate change and promote a changeover to clean energy.

    2 vote(s)
    13.3%
  2. It won't help but will hurt the economy and violate our rights.

    12 vote(s)
    80.0%
  3. It won't have much effect on anybody at all.

    1 vote(s)
    6.7%
  1. Foxfyre
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    Foxfyre Eternal optimist Supporting Member

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    The news this morning on Fox, CNN, and MSNBC all reported that the next initiatives of the Obama Administration would be illegal immigration and the energy bill, i.e. CAP and TRADE. Harry Reid has said the Senate will probably deal with Cap and Trade first.

    Proponents of Cap and Trade say it is essential to combat climate change, promote research and production of clean energy, and develop new technologies.

    Opponents cite severe economic consequences, loss of American (or other national) sovereignty, and more infringement of choices, options, opportunities (i.e. rights.)

    Keeping it civil will be much appreciated but discuss.

    Some initial food for thought (excerpted):

     
  2. Old Rocks
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    Old Rocks Gold Member

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    Cap and trade worked for sulphate emmissions. However, I think that even with cap and trade, the effects of the GHGs will become severe enough that by the time the policy is in position, much more draconian measures will be taken. To not much avail. At least 30 years inertia in the system.
     
  3. Foxfyre
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    Foxfyre Eternal optimist Supporting Member

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    Cap & Trade worked for sulphur emissions? Could you elaborate on that further?

    I do know that the former administration banned sulphur from a lot of energy sources such as diesel fuel (which accounts for the astronomical high prices for diesel ever since.)

    But I am unfamiliar with a cap and trade sulphur policy. But I am prepared to be educated on that.
     
  4. Old Rocks
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    Old Rocks Gold Member

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    http://www.epa.gov/AIRMARKET/cap-trade/docs/ctresults.pdf

    The Acid Rain Program was established under Title IV
    of the 1990 Clean Air Act Amendments to reduce acid
    rain and improve public health by dramatically reducing
    emissions of SO2 and NOx. Using a market-based cap
    and trade approach, the program sets a permanent cap
    on the total amount of SO2 that may be emitted by
    electric power plants nationwide. The cap is set at about
    one half of the amount of SO2 emitted in 1980, and the
    trading component allows flexibility for sources to select
    the method of compliance. The program also sets NOx
    emission limitations for coal-fired units with some
    compliance flexibility, representing about a 27 percent
    reduction from 1990 levels.
     
  5. Old Rocks
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  6. Foxfyre
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    Foxfyre Eternal optimist Supporting Member

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    Very interesting and a good find O.R. Thanks.
    The 1990 definition of "Cap and trade" seems somewhat different that what the Obama Administration is proposing though. In 1990, companies could select various means of compliance. The way I understand it, in 2010, companies can sell the emissions they don't emit to some other company who will then emit them.

    I don't think that's the same thing.
     
  7. Old Rocks
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    Close to the same, harder to enforce. The suphate emissions usually settled within a few hundred miles of the source, the CO2 affects all the world.

    The reason that I do not think they will be effective is that the effects we are seeing right now from AGW were predicted to happen 20 to 100 years from now. If this continues, only an outright, and rapidly declining cap will do any good, and only decades in the future. From past observation, there is about 30 years or more heating from the present GHGs in the atmosphere. There is that much inertia in the system.
     
  8. Foxfyre
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    Foxfyre Eternal optimist Supporting Member

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    Well I respect your opinion about that as much as I can't yet agree with it Rocks. :)

    I shall return tomorrow with some additional ammo though.

    Good night sweet prince.
     
  9. Foxfyre
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    Foxfyre Eternal optimist Supporting Member

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    Okay, so far little response here. Let's try a new tack.

    In my opinion, Cap and Trade is an initiative proposed by the U.S. Federal Government for the purpose of imposing the largest tax ever known to humankind while further stripping away many of the unalienable rights, choices, options, and opportunities of the people.

    Even as we speak there are many groups, apparently invisible to the media, who are working toward that end. Groups such as Chicago Climate Change and others.

    I want somebody to change my opinion about that. Can you?
     
  10. tommywho70x
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    tommywho70x BANNED

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    does anybody have any info on "Chicago Climate Exchange" a business set up solely for trading in emissions (which really seems strange to me --- what kind of product is that?)

    apparently this company stockholders include goldman-sachs, al gore and barack obama.
     

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