Can you make a BIBLICAL argument for and against abortion?

[zaangalewa]

From the link posted above:

When understood as a reference to miscarriage, Exodus 21:22-25 is sometimes used as evidence that the unborn is subhuman. But a proper understanding of the passage shows reference is not to a miscarriage, but to a premature birth, and that the “injury” referred to, which is to be compensated for like all other injuries, applies to the child as well as to his mother. This means that, “far from justifying permissive abortion, in fact grants the unborn child a status in the eyes of the law equal to the mother's.” [5]

What rights are granted to the fetus in Numbers where instructions are given for that priest administered abortion for a wife who is accused of fooling around. Better yet, where was abortion specifically denied in the bible? Plenty of denial of sea food, and cotton polyester blend clothing, but nothing about abortion. Why?

I don't know why abortion is not specifically mentioned. I think one can surmise that abortion is immoral based on the commandments of thou shall not kill and be fruitful and multiply.

So what do you say about prisoner executions? Wouldn't that throw Thou Shall Not Kill out the window? Selectively following of the rules?

Let me first say executions are always wrong. Nevertheless this is another problem. In former times it was in many places of the world not possible to imprison someone, who was a very dangerous criminal. That's why to execute such a person was often seen as a kind of extended selfdefence. And seldefence is sometimes able to justify the death of an aggressor by killing him.

But one problem of such forms of "preemptive selfdefence" was it always that someone had to become an executioner. And an exectution is somehow only a kind of legalized murder too. And today the risk a very dangerous criminal is able to escape is not very high any longer.

Background information:

ROME — Pope Francis has declared the death penalty wrong in all cases, a definitive change in church teaching that is likely to challenge Catholic politicians, judges and officials who have argued that their church was not entirely opposed to capital punishment.

Before, church doctrine accepted the death penalty if it was “the only practicable way” to defend lives, an opening that some Catholics took as license to support capital punishment in many cases.

But Francis said executions were unacceptable in all cases because they are “an attack” on human dignity, the Vatican announced on Thursday, adding that the church would work “with determination” to abolish capital punishment worldwide.

Francis made the change to the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church, the book of doctrine that is taught to Catholic children worldwide and studied by adults in a church with 1.2 billion members. Abolishing the death penalty has long been one of his top priorities, along with saving the environment and caring for immigrants and refugees.

(Source: Pope Francis Declares Death Penalty Unacceptable in All Cases )

My arguments here have only been based upon what I see in the bible as per the thread title.I believe some crimes are worthy of execution.

I do not have any idea why you think god gave you the right to kill someone because you think he's worth to be executed.

My personal opposition to execution is that we often kill someone and later find they were innocent. That possibility is abhorrent and it's better to let the guilty live, confined to prison, than it is to execute an innocent person.

Aha. But ... To be killed on the wrong reason - to be in prison on the wrong reason. Not a big difference in my eyes. And I would not know who would leave the prison in the end dead or alive. I? Someone else, whom I do not like to know?

 

[BULLDOG]

What rights are granted to the fetus in Numbers where instructions are given for that priest administered abortion for a wife who is accused of fooling around. Better yet, where was abortion specifically denied in the bible? Plenty of denial of sea food, and cotton polyester blend clothing, but nothing about abortion. Why?

I don't know why abortion is not specifically mentioned. I think one can surmise that abortion is immoral based on the commandments of thou shall not kill and be fruitful and multiply.

So what do you say about prisoner executions? Wouldn't that throw Thou Shall Not Kill out the window? Selectively following of the rules?

Let me first say executions are always wrong. Nevertheless this is another problem. In former times it was in many places of the world not possible to imprison someone, who was a very dangerous criminal. That's why to execute such a person was often seen as a kind of extended selfdefence. And seldefence is sometimes able to justify the death of an aggressor by killing him.

But one problem of such forms of "preemptive selfdefence" was it always that someone had to become an executioner. And an exectution is somehow only a kind of legalized murder too. And today the risk a very dangerous criminal is able to escape is not very high any longer.

Background information:

ROME — Pope Francis has declared the death penalty wrong in all cases, a definitive change in church teaching that is likely to challenge Catholic politicians, judges and officials who have argued that their church was not entirely opposed to capital punishment.

Before, church doctrine accepted the death penalty if it was “the only practicable way” to defend lives, an opening that some Catholics took as license to support capital punishment in many cases.

But Francis said executions were unacceptable in all cases because they are “an attack” on human dignity, the Vatican announced on Thursday, adding that the church would work “with determination” to abolish capital punishment worldwide.

Francis made the change to the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church, the book of doctrine that is taught to Catholic children worldwide and studied by adults in a church with 1.2 billion members. Abolishing the death penalty has long been one of his top priorities, along with saving the environment and caring for immigrants and refugees.

(Source: Pope Francis Declares Death Penalty Unacceptable in All Cases )

My arguments here have only been based upon what I see in the bible as per the thread title.I believe some crimes are worthy of execution.

I do not have any idea why you think god gave you the right to kill someone because you think he's worth to be executed.

My personal opposition to execution is that we often kill someone and later find they were innocent. That possibility is abhorrent and it's better to let the guilty live, confined to prison, than it is to execute an innocent person.

Aha. But ... To be killed on the wrong reason - to be in prison on the wrong reason. Not a big difference in my eyes. And I would not know who would leave the prison in the end dead or alive. I? Someone else, whom I do not like to know?

That is why I made the distinction between my personal beliefs, and what I have found in the bible. Unfairly imprisoned is also bad, but as long as they are still alive, it's possible that they could be released. No, that won't make up for false imprisonment, but it's not as bad as dying.

 

[zaangalewa]

I don't know why abortion is not specifically mentioned. I think one can surmise that abortion is immoral based on the commandments of thou shall not kill and be fruitful and multiply.

So what do you say about prisoner executions? Wouldn't that throw Thou Shall Not Kill out the window? Selectively following of the rules?

Let me first say executions are always wrong. Nevertheless this is another problem. In former times it was in many places of the world not possible to imprison someone, who was a very dangerous criminal. That's why to execute such a person was often seen as a kind of extended selfdefence. And seldefence is sometimes able to justify the death of an aggressor by killing him.

But one problem of such forms of "preemptive selfdefence" was it always that someone had to become an executioner. And an exectution is somehow only a kind of legalized murder too. And today the risk a very dangerous criminal is able to escape is not very high any longer.

Background information:

ROME — Pope Francis has declared the death penalty wrong in all cases, a definitive change in church teaching that is likely to challenge Catholic politicians, judges and officials who have argued that their church was not entirely opposed to capital punishment.

Before, church doctrine accepted the death penalty if it was “the only practicable way” to defend lives, an opening that some Catholics took as license to support capital punishment in many cases.

But Francis said executions were unacceptable in all cases because they are “an attack” on human dignity, the Vatican announced on Thursday, adding that the church would work “with determination” to abolish capital punishment worldwide.

Francis made the change to the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church, the book of doctrine that is taught to Catholic children worldwide and studied by adults in a church with 1.2 billion members. Abolishing the death penalty has long been one of his top priorities, along with saving the environment and caring for immigrants and refugees.

(Source: Pope Francis Declares Death Penalty Unacceptable in All Cases )

My arguments here have only been based upon what I see in the bible as per the thread title.I believe some crimes are worthy of execution.

I do not have any idea why you think god gave you the right to kill someone because you think he's worth to be executed.

My personal opposition to execution is that we often kill someone and later find they were innocent. That possibility is abhorrent and it's better to let the guilty live, confined to prison, than it is to execute an innocent person.

Aha. But ... To be killed on the wrong reason - to be in prison on the wrong reason. Not a big difference in my eyes. And I would not know who would leave the prison in the end dead or alive. I? Someone else, whom I do not like to know?

That is why I made the distinction between my personal beliefs, and what I have found in the bible.

A personal belief is an opinion. Opinions are important for politics.

Unfairly imprisoned is also bad, but as long as they are still alive, it's possible that they could be released.

In the USA much to many people are in prisons. Prisons teach people a lot - and prisons change a lot. Same with wars. People come back from prisons and wars - but often only comes back a name and not the person.

No, that won't make up for false imprisonment, but it's not as bad as dying.

Anyway I would not be a long time in prison or dead.

 

[onefour1]

Watching this video, can anyone really conclude that the unborn child has no life at any step while in the mother's womb?

The bible can:
Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Job 33:4 The spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

These verses are not speaking of man's breath that he takes after leaving the womb. It is speaking of the breath of life that God breathes into man to make him a living soul. It is a representation of when man's spirit enters into him.

Ecclesiastes 7:12
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The soul of mankind is a combination of the body and spirit:

Doctrine and Covenants 88:15-16
15 And the spirit and the body are the soul of man.
16 And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul.

 

[edthecynic]

Watching this video, can anyone really conclude that the unborn child has no life at any step while in the mother's womb?

The bible can:
Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Job 33:4 The spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

These verses are not speaking of man's breath that he takes after leaving the womb. It is speaking of the breath of life that God breathes into man to make him a living soul. It is a representation of when man's spirit enters into him..

Read it again;
Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

 

[hobelim]

Watching this video, can anyone really conclude that the unborn child has no life at any step while in the mother's womb?

The bible can:
Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Job 33:4 The spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

These verses are not speaking of man's breath that he takes after leaving the womb. It is speaking of the breath of life that God breathes into man to make him a living soul. It is a representation of when man's spirit enters into him..

Read it again;
Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The breath of life is the Ankh, symbolizing divine wisdom.

 

[TomParks]

Thou shall not kill

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

How would one make an argument "for abortion"? Nobody is "for abortion

Eexplain WHY. Isn't a fetus as dead as a fingernail? I'm pro tonsillitis. Why can't you support removing an unwanted tumor?

The truth is you know the truth.

 

[K9Buck]

How would one make an argument "for abortion"? Nobody is "for abortion

Eexplain WHY. Isn't a fetus as dead as a fingernail? I'm pro tonsillitis. Why can't you support removing an unwanted tumor?

The truth is you know the truth.

Can you support an argument for or against abortion using BIBLICAL VERSES?

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

How would one make an argument "for abortion"? Nobody is "for abortion

Eexplain WHY. Isn't a fetus as dead as a fingernail? I'm pro tonsillitis. Why can't you support removing an unwanted tumor?

The truth is you know the truth.

Can you support an argument for or against abortion using BIBLICAL VERSES?

Have in the past. It doesn't affect anyone's position.

Exposing pogo's hypocrisy and lies is sufficient.

But just for you:

from my mother's womb, you have been my God

Did not He who made me in the womb, make them?

Before I formed you in the womb....

Your eyes saw my unformed body

You knit me together in my mother's womb

If you see the innocent being led to their death, do not say "I did not see" for there is One in heaven who watches -- and HE KNOWS!

 

[onefour1]

Watching this video, can anyone really conclude that the unborn child has no life at any step while in the mother's womb?

The bible can:
Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Job 33:4 The spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

These verses are not speaking of man's breath that he takes after leaving the womb. It is speaking of the breath of life that God breathes into man to make him a living soul. It is a representation of when man's spirit enters into him..

Read it again;
Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

So who did the breathing according to the verse, God or man? By that alone you cannot conclude that it was when man takes a breath that life begins. Life begins when God breathes the breath of life into man. But what is that life that God breathes into man? The fetus has a heart beat, they move around, they suck their thumbs and learn to swallow and taste. Sometimes it is necessary to remove the fetus before it is their time. Some of them survive this process. How could they survive if they are not alive until after taking their first breath of air? I guess someone failed to define when life begins properly. Other fetuses are said to not survive. How could they say this if they never were alive? Is it because some have survived and some haven't? Or is it because in truth that they know within themselves that they are alive in the womb and are just kidding themselves. How can a fetus that exists the womb be induced into breathing if it is not alive until after its first breath?

God often uses analogies and metaphors to teach many precepts. I believe in this case that He is using his breath as a representation of when he allows the spirit of man to enter into the womb and give life to mankind. I don't think that God is breathing in the face of ever newly born child the instant the child is induced into breathing. As an example of a metaphor in the bible:

John 21:15-17
15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Now if we were to take the above verse literally and without metaphors, then Peter (Simon bar Jonas) would have sought to feed literal sheep that were the Lord's. But we know that isn't the case since Christ often referred to his follows as his sheep. We know that what he meant was to look after the members of his church. And we also know that what he meant by feeding them was to give them the word of God. Peter as the head apostle and prophet of the church was to look after all the members of the church after Christ ascended to heaven.

The phrase "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life" is a metaphor for God allowing the spirit of Adam to enter into his body and for allowing all our spirits to enter our mothers' wombs to give life to each one of us. It has nothing to do with man taking his first breath.

 

[MAGAman]

How would one make an argument "for abortion"? Nobody is "for abortion". It appears the question itself displays an ignorance of the entire topic.

Is there another passage in the bashing babies' heads against the rocks bit that I don't know about?

Shout Your Abortion — Abortion is normal. Our stories are ours to tell. This is not a debate.

I don't know about bashing children's heads with rocks, but they're ok with either pulling babies apart limb by limb or sucking their brains out with a vacuum tube....

Is that close enough?

 

[Pogo]

How would one make an argument "for abortion"? Nobody is "for abortion

Eexplain WHY. Isn't a fetus as dead as a fingernail? I'm pro tonsillitis. Why can't you support removing an unwanted tumor?

The truth is you know the truth.

Can you support an argument for or against abortion using BIBLICAL VERSES?

Have in the past. It doesn't affect anyone's position.

Exposing pogo's hypocrisy and lies is sufficient.

You didn't even make a coherent post, Dumbass. A question by definition cannot be a "lie".

What a retard.

 

[Pogo]

How would one make an argument "for abortion"? Nobody is "for abortion". It appears the question itself displays an ignorance of the entire topic.

Is there another passage in the bashing babies' heads against the rocks bit that I don't know about?

Shout Your Abortion — Abortion is normal. Our stories are ours to tell. This is not a debate.
View attachment 249546
I don't know about bashing children's heads with rocks, but they're ok with either pulling babies apart limb by limb or sucking their brains out with a vacuum tube....

Is that close enough?

"‘Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks" --- Psalm 137:9

Okay, it's not necessarily their heads.

 

[Mike Dwight]

"The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born." I see it now, faithful ones, abortion for the reprobate sinful populations of this world, definitely India. Ya free abortions in India please.

 

[MedfordMan]

Please don't troll. Thanks in advance.

K9,

there is an interesting parallel between the culture that celebrates abortion and the Caananite cultures worship of the god (small g) Molech.

I'm not going to go into great detail here as my focus is on the scriptures.

PLEASE NOTE: I'd check every scripture referenced yourself as the first link I saw misrepresented a verse from Dueteronomy.

 

[zaangalewa]

How would one make an argument "for abortion"? Nobody is "for abortion". It appears the question itself displays an ignorance of the entire topic.

Is there another passage in the bashing babies' heads against the rocks bit that I don't know about?

Shout Your Abortion — Abortion is normal. Our stories are ours to tell. This is not a debate.
View attachment 249546
I don't know about bashing children's heads with rocks, but they're ok with either pulling babies apart limb by limb or sucking their brains out with a vacuum tube....

Is that close enough?

"‘Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks" --- Psalm 137:9

Okay, it's not necessarily their heads.

And this has absolutely nothing to do with abortion. The complete saying is in this context: "Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is the one who repays you according to what you have done to us. Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks."

This sentence shows the deep frustration, anger and even hate of someone, who lost his freedom in war, was displaced and had to live on a very low level as a slave in the land of his enemies.

 

[Pogo]

How would one make an argument "for abortion"? Nobody is "for abortion". It appears the question itself displays an ignorance of the entire topic.

Is there another passage in the bashing babies' heads against the rocks bit that I don't know about?

Shout Your Abortion — Abortion is normal. Our stories are ours to tell. This is not a debate.
View attachment 249546
I don't know about bashing children's heads with rocks, but they're ok with either pulling babies apart limb by limb or sucking their brains out with a vacuum tube....

Is that close enough?

"‘Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks" --- Psalm 137:9

Okay, it's not necessarily their heads.

And this has absolutely nothing to do with abortion. The complete saying is in this context: "Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is the one who repays you according to what you have done to us. Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks."

This sentence shows the deep frustration, anger and even hate of someone, who lost his freedom in war, was displaced and had to live on a very low level as a slave in the land of his enemies.

wwwwhoooooosssshhhhhhhh......

 

[ding]

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

 

[Taz]

God invented spontaneous abortions and the stillborn.