Can Paris summit save two-state solution?

[P F Tinmore]

Israelis killed people on a flotilla, because they attacked them.

You are sooooooooo full of shit. It was Israel that attacked the flotilla.

I'm assuming you are talking about the flotilla from Cypress, sponsored by the Turkish group.

...As any country would. There was an embargo.

You realize that American coast guards jump on flotillas of Cubans to this day. If those Cubans started attacking our guards, they would be shot. I promise you they would.

Similarly, if China boards a Japanese boat, and the Japs attack the Chinese, they will be shot.

In fact, when the US aircraft landed in China, if the US airmen attacked the Chinese military, they would have been shot and killed.

If North Korea boards a South Korean ship, and the South Koreans attack them, they will be shot.

Yes.... yes the Israelis boarded the flotilla to turn it back. They were attacked, and thus they shot those people.... AND THEY SHOULD.

Any questions?

Again... if you are so stupid..... that you attack me, when I'm armed with a weapon...... Seriously.... for the pagans, this should be a Darwin award. You are being removed from the gene pool to limit the amount of stupidity in our genes.

Coastguard cutters and warships of any nation are entitled to ask a ship to heave to and be boarded for inspection within their own territorial waters or within an area under blockade. On the high seas however, any ship making lawful passage and not a belligerant in any particular conflict may legitimately resist boarding by any foreign vessel or warship.

As regards shooting people, there is a huge difference in using a weapon to protect yourself, whereas the people shot on the Mavi Marmarra were shot execution style, in the head. That's murder.

I watched the video. The evidence is very clear, the Israelis were attacked.

When you are so stupid that you attack armed military personnel.... I don't need your lame excuses anymore. You deserve to be shot, and getting rid of those people, execution style or not, is a benefit to the entire world.

Besides that, assuming your lame excuses of 'execution style' are true, that would still be fair more humane than the way the Arabs kill Jews... beating them in a mass lynching, setting them on fire, and tying them to a bike, and dragging them through the streets.

You give me an option, I'll take one bullet to the head over how the Arabs treat people, any day.

WOW, nice rant.

 

[Andylusion]

Israelis killed people on a flotilla, because they attacked them.

You are sooooooooo full of shit. It was Israel that attacked the flotilla.

I'm assuming you are talking about the flotilla from Cypress, sponsored by the Turkish group.

...As any country would. There was an embargo.

You realize that American coast guards jump on flotillas of Cubans to this day. If those Cubans started attacking our guards, they would be shot. I promise you they would.

Similarly, if China boards a Japanese boat, and the Japs attack the Chinese, they will be shot.

In fact, when the US aircraft landed in China, if the US airmen attacked the Chinese military, they would have been shot and killed.

If North Korea boards a South Korean ship, and the South Koreans attack them, they will be shot.

Yes.... yes the Israelis boarded the flotilla to turn it back. They were attacked, and thus they shot those people.... AND THEY SHOULD.

Any questions?

Again... if you are so stupid..... that you attack me, when I'm armed with a weapon...... Seriously.... for the pagans, this should be a Darwin award. You are being removed from the gene pool to limit the amount of stupidity in our genes.

Coastguard cutters and warships of any nation are entitled to ask a ship to heave to and be boarded for inspection within their own territorial waters or within an area under blockade. On the high seas however, any ship making lawful passage and not a belligerant in any particular conflict may legitimately resist boarding by any foreign vessel or warship.

As regards shooting people, there is a huge difference in using a weapon to protect yourself, whereas the people shot on the Mavi Marmarra were shot execution style, in the head. That's murder.

I watched the video. The evidence is very clear, the Israelis were attacked.

When you are so stupid that you attack armed military personnel.... I don't need your lame excuses anymore. You deserve to be shot, and getting rid of those people, execution style or not, is a benefit to the entire world.

Besides that, assuming your lame excuses of 'execution style' are true, that would still be fair more humane than the way the Arabs kill Jews... beating them in a mass lynching, setting them on fire, and tying them to a bike, and dragging them through the streets.

You give me an option, I'll take one bullet to the head over how the Arabs treat people, any day.

WOW, nice rant.

Thanks. I try and be as direct as possible. Sorry if that's too blunt.

 

[Eloy]

You are forgetting that the Palestinians are defending themselves from Zionist settler colonialism.

The Palestinians are "defending themselves" from returnees (immigrants, if you must) of only one ethnic group. The Palestinians are perfectly happy to accept immigrants from different nations as long as they aren't Jewish. They have no problem with "settler colonialism" (obviously, since they are settler colonists).

In other words, the mere presence of Jews is reason enough to kill Jews.

It would be like Europeans deciding that their Arab immigrants are "settler colonists" and therefore, they were fair game for "resistance" and that killing them is permissible. The civilized world just does not accept that sort of moral depravity.

No one believes that Russian and other European Jews are "returnees" in any sense of the word whereas indigenous Palestinians whose land was robbed to create Israel are the true people who have a birthright to their homeland. Having to explain this is proof that talking to the Israelis is a dead end.

The only way for the Palestinians to have their state is to proclaim one and accept support from other nations who are prepared to make the Israelis pay for their scofflaw attitude and terrorist actions.

 

[Andylusion]

You are forgetting that the Palestinians are defending themselves from Zionist settler colonialism.

The Palestinians are "defending themselves" from returnees (immigrants, if you must) of only one ethnic group. The Palestinians are perfectly happy to accept immigrants from different nations as long as they aren't Jewish. They have no problem with "settler colonialism" (obviously, since they are settler colonists).

In other words, the mere presence of Jews is reason enough to kill Jews.

It would be like Europeans deciding that their Arab immigrants are "settler colonists" and therefore, they were fair game for "resistance" and that killing them is permissible. The civilized world just does not accept that sort of moral depravity.

No one believes that Russian and other European Jews are "returnees" in any sense of the word whereas indigenous Palestinians whose land was robbed to create Israel are the true people who have a birthright to their homeland. Having to explain this is proof that talking to the Israelis is a dead end.

The only way for the Palestinians to have their state is to proclaim one and accept support from other nations who are prepared to make the Israelis pay for their scofflaw attitude and terrorist actions.

Well yeah, you trying to explain this to Israelis is a dead end... because you are wrong. It's that simple. When you are wrong, trying to prove your wrong position to others, is a waste of time.

And if you try and proclaim a Palestine state, you had best be prepared to occupy the entire land of Israel literally forever.

Because the moment you leave, the Arabs will attack the Israelis, the Israelis will invade, and Palestine will cease to exist.

So you had best be ready to stay in Israel for eternity. Given the fact I do not see any country ready to do this.... I highly doubt that will happen any time soon. Could be wrong. Doubt it.

 

[Shusha]

No one believes that Russian and other European Jews are "returnees" in any sense of the word whereas indigenous Palestinians whose land was robbed to create Israel are the true people who have a birthright to their homeland. Having to explain this is proof that talking to the Israelis is a dead end.

I have two distinct answers to this:

First,

If you think that "no one" believes that the Jewish people are returning to their homeland, the land of their ancestors, the land they originated in, the land they were forcibly removed from, then you are incapable of understanding, and thus, discussing this conflict.

The British Mandate believed that the Jewish people were returning to their homeland (thus: "reconstituting their national homeland" and "they are here by right and not on sufferance"). Emir Faisal believed that the Jewish people were returning to their homeland: "We will wish the Jews a most hearty welcome home." Gandhi said: "...so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home” (emphasis mine). And the Jewish people most certainly believe that they are returning to their homeland.

To say that "no one" believes....is an obvious falsehood.

Indeed, the idea that the Jewish homeland is NOT Israel and Judea and Samaria is rather a new idea, developed only in the past 70 years or so and directly as a propaganda against Jewish people in the context of the conflict.

Second,

The history of the Jewish people in Israel, Judea and Samaria is factually true. Obviously, undeniably, inarguably, factually true. You can argue that they no longer have rights to return to those lands -- but to argue that the Jewish people weren't there, that the Jewish people didn't originate there, didn't have history there, didn't exist there is an obvious falsehood.


You, and others, are trying to make the argument that indigeneity is passed to those who remain on the land, even when the land is overtaken by an invading, conquering, settler colonialist culture and the original culture is disenfranchised, cleansed, forcibly removed or overtaken and converted.

The problem with your argument is that, held consistently (and by that I mean sans anti-semitism) it legitimizes the Jews colonization of Israel, Juda and Samaria and renders all "Palestinians" living outside of Palestine as foreigners.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The history of the Jewish people in Israel, Judea and Samaria is factually true.

It is. However they were not the first people there nor were they ever the only people there.

The is no historic precedent for an exclusive Jewish state.

 

[Andylusion]

The history of the Jewish people in Israel, Judea and Samaria is factually true.

It is. However they were not the first people there nor were they ever the only people there.

The is no historic precedent for an exclusive Jewish state.

The fact they were not the first people there, isn't in question. There were other people there, and those people are dead and gone.

To claim they were not the only people there is also not in question. Various other groups have moved in, and moved out, of the land of Israel.

However, there is only one people group, that has been present in the land of Israel, consistently since the time of David the King. That is the Jews.

No other group has had a consistent presence in the land. No other group has claimed it as their nation, like the Jews since the time of David.

And certainly, without question, no other group anywhere in the world, has a larger and more documented claim on the land of Israel, than the Jews.

The people called "Palestinians" are nothing more than squatters from other countries. Jordan, Egypt, Arabia, Iraq, and so on. None are people who have a historic claim on the land. None.

Propaganda is the only source for any other claim. Which is to say, complete and utter lies and fabrications.

Ironically prior to the 1960s, many of this same "palestinians" were insulted to be called Palestinians, and always preferred to be called Jordanians, Egyptians, Arabians and Iraqis. They self-identified as being immigrants.

Only now, when it is good for public opinion and support, do they consider themselves "palestinians". A fabricated group, to stake a claim on Israel, not to get the land, but to aide in their goal of wiping Israel off the map. It will not succeed.

 

[Shusha]

The history of the Jewish people in Israel, Judea and Samaria is factually true.

It is. However they were not the first people there nor were they ever the only people there.

The is no historic precedent for an exclusive Jewish state.

Israel, Judea and Samaria were never exclusively Jewish (because that would be morally abhorrent, right?). Neither are Israel, Judea and Samaria exclusively Jewish now.

There was, though, most certainly a precedent for Jewish self-determination and self-government. There is also quite clearly a precedent for saying that the Jewish people can be considered returnees.

 

[Eloy]

No one believes that Russian and other European Jews are "returnees" in any sense of the word whereas indigenous Palestinians whose land was robbed to create Israel are the true people who have a birthright to their homeland. Having to explain this is proof that talking to the Israelis is a dead end.

I have two distinct answers to this:

First,

If you think that "no one" believes that the Jewish people are returning to their homeland, the land of their ancestors, the land they originated in, the land they were forcibly removed from, then you are incapable of understanding, and thus, discussing this conflict.

The British Mandate believed that the Jewish people were returning to their homeland (thus: "reconstituting their national homeland" and "they are here by right and not on sufferance"). Emir Faisal believed that the Jewish people were returning to their homeland: "We will wish the Jews a most hearty welcome home." Gandhi said: "...so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home” (emphasis mine). And the Jewish people most certainly believe that they are returning to their homeland.

To say that "no one" believes....is an obvious falsehood.

Indeed, the idea that the Jewish homeland is NOT Israel and Judea and Samaria is rather a new idea, developed only in the past 70 years or so and directly as a propaganda against Jewish people in the context of the conflict.

Second,

The history of the Jewish people in Israel, Judea and Samaria is factually true. Obviously, undeniably, inarguably, factually true. You can argue that they no longer have rights to return to those lands -- but to argue that the Jewish people weren't there, that the Jewish people didn't originate there, didn't have history there, didn't exist there is an obvious falsehood.


You, and others, are trying to make the argument that indigeneity is passed to those who remain on the land, even when the land is overtaken by an invading, conquering, settler colonialist culture and the original culture is disenfranchised, cleansed, forcibly removed or overtaken and converted.

The problem with your argument is that, held consistently (and by that I mean sans anti-semitism) it legitimizes the Jews colonization of Israel, Juda and Samaria and renders all "Palestinians" living outside of Palestine as foreigners.

As I have written before, common decency denies the right of European Jews to take the land of indigenous Palestinian Arabs in order to establish a sectarian state. If Emir Faisal believed this he was nuts. Secondly, it was never the intention of the British to set up a sectarian state in Palestine as they were later to do in the north of Ireland but for the Jews to get out of Europe and have a homeland among the indigenous people.

European Jews have no business making territorial designs on Palestinian land and while the rest of the world has accepted the existence of a sectarian Israel, it does not accept that the Occupied Palestinian Territories can be considered part of a Jewish state. If you cannot accept that then you have lost touch with reality.

If a two-state solution continues to be mere lip service for the Israelis then the rest of the world (except the USA) ought to have the courage of its conviction and declare Israel an illegitimate sectarian state and recognize Palestine as a state with full membership of the United Nations.

 

[Eloy]

The history of the Jewish people in Israel, Judea and Samaria is factually true.

It is. However they were not the first people there nor were they ever the only people there.

The is no historic precedent for an exclusive Jewish state.

Israel, Judea and Samaria were never exclusively Jewish (because that would be morally abhorrent, right?). Neither are Israel, Judea and Samaria exclusively Jewish now.

There was, though, most certainly a precedent for Jewish self-determination and self-government. There is also quite clearly a precedent for saying that the Jewish people can be considered returnees.

Judea and Samaria does not exist and hasn't done so since Andalucía was Hispania Baetica. How European Jews got permission from the international community to create a state based on ancient Biblical locations is one of the world's modern hoaxes playing out far from London and Washington with Palestinians paying the price for this shocking folly.

 

[Andylusion]

No one believes that Russian and other European Jews are "returnees" in any sense of the word whereas indigenous Palestinians whose land was robbed to create Israel are the true people who have a birthright to their homeland. Having to explain this is proof that talking to the Israelis is a dead end.

I have two distinct answers to this:

First,

If you think that "no one" believes that the Jewish people are returning to their homeland, the land of their ancestors, the land they originated in, the land they were forcibly removed from, then you are incapable of understanding, and thus, discussing this conflict.

The British Mandate believed that the Jewish people were returning to their homeland (thus: "reconstituting their national homeland" and "they are here by right and not on sufferance"). Emir Faisal believed that the Jewish people were returning to their homeland: "We will wish the Jews a most hearty welcome home." Gandhi said: "...so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home” (emphasis mine). And the Jewish people most certainly believe that they are returning to their homeland.

To say that "no one" believes....is an obvious falsehood.

Indeed, the idea that the Jewish homeland is NOT Israel and Judea and Samaria is rather a new idea, developed only in the past 70 years or so and directly as a propaganda against Jewish people in the context of the conflict.

Second,

The history of the Jewish people in Israel, Judea and Samaria is factually true. Obviously, undeniably, inarguably, factually true. You can argue that they no longer have rights to return to those lands -- but to argue that the Jewish people weren't there, that the Jewish people didn't originate there, didn't have history there, didn't exist there is an obvious falsehood.


You, and others, are trying to make the argument that indigeneity is passed to those who remain on the land, even when the land is overtaken by an invading, conquering, settler colonialist culture and the original culture is disenfranchised, cleansed, forcibly removed or overtaken and converted.

The problem with your argument is that, held consistently (and by that I mean sans anti-semitism) it legitimizes the Jews colonization of Israel, Juda and Samaria and renders all "Palestinians" living outside of Palestine as foreigners.

As I have written before, common decency denies the right of European Jews to take the land of indigenous Palestinian Arabs in order to establish a sectarian state. If Emir Faisal believed this he was nuts. Secondly, it was never the intention of the British to set up a sectarian state in Palestine as they were later to do in the north of Ireland but for the Jews to get out of Europe and have a homeland among the indigenous people.

European Jews have no business making territorial designs on Palestinian land and while the rest of the world has accepted the existence of a sectarian Israel, it does not accept that the Occupied Palestinian Territories can be considered part of a Jewish state. If you cannot accept that then you have lost touch with reality.

If a two-state solution continues to be mere lip service for the Israelis then the rest of the world (except the USA) ought to have the courage of its conviction and declare Israel an illegitimate sectarian state and recognize Palestine as a state with full membership of the United Nations.

We already covered this. There are no "indigenous Palestinian Arabs". No such thing. Completely fabricated propaganda.

If you cannot accept that then you have lost touch with reality.

That's very odd, since what we accept is exactly what is the reality in Israel. You are claiming we have lost touch with what is actually going on?

If a two-state solution continues to be mere lip service for the Israelis then the rest of the world (except the USA) ought to have the courage of its conviction and declare Israel an illegitimate sectarian state and recognize Palestine as a state with full membership of the United Nations.

Be my guest. See what happens when Israel smashes Palestine. You can say whatever you want, and have the UN accept Palestine, but you are thinking foolishly if you expect Israel to just accept what you say. Not happening.

 

[Andylusion]

The history of the Jewish people in Israel, Judea and Samaria is factually true.

It is. However they were not the first people there nor were they ever the only people there.

The is no historic precedent for an exclusive Jewish state.

Israel, Judea and Samaria were never exclusively Jewish (because that would be morally abhorrent, right?). Neither are Israel, Judea and Samaria exclusively Jewish now.

There was, though, most certainly a precedent for Jewish self-determination and self-government. There is also quite clearly a precedent for saying that the Jewish people can be considered returnees.

Judea and Samaria does not exist and hasn't done so since Andalucía was Hispania Baetica. How European Jews got permission from the international community to create a state based on ancient Biblical locations is one of the world's modern hoaxes playing out far from London and Washington with Palestinians paying the price for this shocking folly.

Yeah... hoax. Right. 2,000 years of history confirmed by dozens of historical sources..... but it's a hoax in your world.

But then you believe in the myth of the 'indigenous Palestinian Arabs', so I'm sure there are some Unicorns and Faries in your world too.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

There is no fucking "two state solution." Muslim is at war with everyone, especially Israel. The only solution is accepting the war and fighting for freedom.

 

[Eloy]

No one believes that Russian and other European Jews are "returnees" in any sense of the word whereas indigenous Palestinians whose land was robbed to create Israel are the true people who have a birthright to their homeland. Having to explain this is proof that talking to the Israelis is a dead end.

I have two distinct answers to this:

First,

If you think that "no one" believes that the Jewish people are returning to their homeland, the land of their ancestors, the land they originated in, the land they were forcibly removed from, then you are incapable of understanding, and thus, discussing this conflict.

The British Mandate believed that the Jewish people were returning to their homeland (thus: "reconstituting their national homeland" and "they are here by right and not on sufferance"). Emir Faisal believed that the Jewish people were returning to their homeland: "We will wish the Jews a most hearty welcome home." Gandhi said: "...so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home” (emphasis mine). And the Jewish people most certainly believe that they are returning to their homeland.

To say that "no one" believes....is an obvious falsehood.

Indeed, the idea that the Jewish homeland is NOT Israel and Judea and Samaria is rather a new idea, developed only in the past 70 years or so and directly as a propaganda against Jewish people in the context of the conflict.

Second,

The history of the Jewish people in Israel, Judea and Samaria is factually true. Obviously, undeniably, inarguably, factually true. You can argue that they no longer have rights to return to those lands -- but to argue that the Jewish people weren't there, that the Jewish people didn't originate there, didn't have history there, didn't exist there is an obvious falsehood.


You, and others, are trying to make the argument that indigeneity is passed to those who remain on the land, even when the land is overtaken by an invading, conquering, settler colonialist culture and the original culture is disenfranchised, cleansed, forcibly removed or overtaken and converted.

The problem with your argument is that, held consistently (and by that I mean sans anti-semitism) it legitimizes the Jews colonization of Israel, Juda and Samaria and renders all "Palestinians" living outside of Palestine as foreigners.

As I have written before, common decency denies the right of European Jews to take the land of indigenous Palestinian Arabs in order to establish a sectarian state. If Emir Faisal believed this he was nuts. Secondly, it was never the intention of the British to set up a sectarian state in Palestine as they were later to do in the north of Ireland but for the Jews to get out of Europe and have a homeland among the indigenous people.

European Jews have no business making territorial designs on Palestinian land and while the rest of the world has accepted the existence of a sectarian Israel, it does not accept that the Occupied Palestinian Territories can be considered part of a Jewish state. If you cannot accept that then you have lost touch with reality.

If a two-state solution continues to be mere lip service for the Israelis then the rest of the world (except the USA) ought to have the courage of its conviction and declare Israel an illegitimate sectarian state and recognize Palestine as a state with full membership of the United Nations.

We already covered this. There are no "indigenous Palestinian Arabs". No such thing. Completely fabricated propaganda.

If you cannot accept that then you have lost touch with reality.

That's very odd, since what we accept is exactly what is the reality in Israel. You are claiming we have lost touch with what is actually going on?

If a two-state solution continues to be mere lip service for the Israelis then the rest of the world (except the USA) ought to have the courage of its conviction and declare Israel an illegitimate sectarian state and recognize Palestine as a state with full membership of the United Nations.

Be my guest. See what happens when Israel smashes Palestine. You can say whatever you want, and have the UN accept Palestine, but you are thinking foolishly if you expect Israel to just accept what you say. Not happening.

Yes, we did cover this before and still the thick wall of Israeli propaganda persists.
What is going on are the territorial claims of Zionists on Palestinian land. This is how the state of Israel was formed in 1948 and it forms the essence of Israeli self-image to this day. There is some indication that the rest of the world is coming around to seeing this but, by insisting that they will do nothing to support the Palestinian except call for talking with the Israelis, is to wave goodbye to any constructive role for the international community. The Israelis should be gratified that the Paris summit should turn out to be just as much of a dud as a firecracker sent from Gaza into Israel. Poof! That is over and done with. Like Pilate when the Jews demanded the death of their Messiah, the international community has washed its hands of the Jewish/Palestinian problem.

 

[Eloy]

There is no fucking "two state solution." Muslim is at war with everyone, especially Israel. The only solution is accepting the war and fighting for freedom.

No, the two-state solution was the idea that Jews and Muslims could share Palestine. It has nothing to do with American Islamophobia.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

There is no fucking "two state solution." Muslim is at war with everyone, especially Israel. The only solution is accepting the war and fighting for freedom.

No, the two-state solution was the idea that Jews and Muslims could share Palestine. It has nothing to do with American Islamophobia.

I don't care about your dickfaced labels. Islam is death.

 

[Andylusion]

There is no fucking "two state solution." Muslim is at war with everyone, especially Israel. The only solution is accepting the war and fighting for freedom.

No, the two-state solution was the idea that Jews and Muslims could share Palestine. It has nothing to do with American Islamophobia.

Well.... they can't share 'palestine'. There is only Israel. There will be only Israel. If you create a new nation, there will be war, and Israel will win. So there will still... only be.... Israel.

 

[P F Tinmore]

We already covered this. There are no "indigenous Palestinian Arabs". No such thing. Completely fabricated propaganda.

So, when was it that the entire population of Palestine left and whole new bunch of immigrants moved in?

Can you give me a date?

 

[Eloy]

We already covered this. There are no "indigenous Palestinian Arabs". No such thing. Completely fabricated propaganda.

So, when was it that the entire population of Palestine left and whole new bunch of immigrants moved in?

Can you give me a date?

Oh oh. You let yourself in for another long diatribe that is off topic.

 

[Hollie]

We already covered this. There are no "indigenous Palestinian Arabs". No such thing. Completely fabricated propaganda.

So, when was it that the entire population of Palestine left and whole new bunch of immigrants moved in?

Can you give me a date?

The history of the geographic area called Pal'istan (it must be a different place vs. your invented "country of Pal'istan"), is one of invaders coming and going. The Islamist invaders are just the more recent invaders.

1924 was a milestone and marked the inevitable clash of Islam's unreformed seventh century doctrine and the modern, civilized world led by the West. The Muslim Brotherhood was established in response to the end of the Caliphate and so any of the Islamist Death Cult all-stars have whined about the humiliation of Moslems in the decades since.