Bridge the gap between Israel and Palestine?

[Katzndogz]

As long as the palestinian constitution calls for the destruction of the Jewish state and the world wide slaughter of Jews peace is not possible.

 

[MHunterB]

Thank you, but that still remains a single incident - and would seem to be an exceptional one. It also doesn't really speak to Muslim/Jewish positive or cordial relations nearly as much as it does to Muslim/Jewish aversion to wholesale slaughter by Christian armies.

The history of Muslim/Jewish relations through the Middle Ages and into the Ottoman days is replete with massacres and expulsions - perhaps less so than in Christian nations, but still nositive.

Still, Muslim-Jewish relations have been must better over the last 1,200 years than Christian-Jewish relations.

What do we call our time in Spain during the Muslim control of the region?

The Golden Age in Spain.

Why did Maimonides *leave* Spain? Various areas of Spain were under Muslim control for close to 800 years: the Reconquista wasn't completed until the fall of Grenada in 1492..... and over that 800 year period, there were several Muslim dynasties in various parts of the Iberian peninsula. As with Christian rulers, some were more and some less hostile to the minorities in their territories.

 

[MHunterB]

"Still, Muslim-Jewish relations have been must better over the last 1,200 years than Christian-Jewish relations."

I'm assuming you meant 'much' better? The problem is, Christian abuse of Jews was so severe and endemic in nearly all of Europe (the sole exception appears to have been Holland) for all those centuries (right up until this one!), that the Muslim treatment of Jewish communities could have been light years better and still have been unacceptable.

You appear to have confused what was a high point in Muslim/Jewish relations with the general history. Please read the article at the link for a quick overview :
History of the Jews under Muslim rule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Hyrcanus]

As long as the palestinian constitution calls for the destruction of the Jewish state and the world wide slaughter of Jews peace is not possible.

The Palestinian....what?????

 

[Hyrcanus]

Why did Maimonides *leave* Spain? Various areas of Spain were under Muslim control for close to 800 years: the Reconquista wasn't completed until the fall of Grenada in 1492..... and over that 800 year period, there were several Muslim dynasties in various parts of the Iberian peninsula. As with Christian rulers, some were more and some less hostile to the minorities in their territories.

The Golden Age.

That's OUR term for our time in Muslim Spain.

 

[MHunterB]

The withdrawal of total, unqualified support of the US would go a long way. The Israeli leadership has felt itself in a very strong position since the '67 war for two reasons. One is the massive economic and military aid supplied by the US, and it's explicit military backing. The second is its monopoly on nuclear weapons. With neither of these advantages, Israel would be much more likely to negociate a settlement in good faith. The second factor is probably going to change within the next couple of years anyway (Iran). The US can change the first, but only if it can reign in the voracious lobbying that goes on in Washington today.

Yes, the end of politics by legal bribery in Washington, D.C. would surely make our policies on the Middle East much more fair and balanced.

And without the United States basically kow-towing to all of Israel's right-wing policies (settlements, war on Gaza, violating Lebanon's airspace, stripping Palestinians of their Permanent Residency status based on Ottoman-era law), Israel would be forced to take a more reasonable approach towards their adversaries.

So, is it your opinion then that people should take a 'more reasonable' approach to those who've declared themselves eternal enemies and sworn to destroy them? (as per the foundational documents of the PLO/PA and HAMAS)

 

[Billo_Really]

If I was President, I would bring peace to the ME in less than 6 months and this is how I would do it:

1. I would tell our Ambasssador to the UN, that we will no longer protect Israel with our veto in the UNSC.
2. I would stop all weapons shipments to Israel.
3. I would freeze all Israeli assets in US banks.
4. I would outlaw AIPAC in the continental United States.
5. I would park the USS Ronald Reagan off Israel's shores.
6. Then I would submit a resolution to the UN Security Councel, telling Israel it has 90 days to end it's occupation of the OPT and get all of its military and civilian settlers out of the area.

On the 91st day, if they're not out of there, I will send in the marines, to drive those god-damn Israeli's back to Israel. Then I would set up a demilitarized zone along the Green Line and shoot anyone who came into it from either side.

All we need to do to bring peace to the ME, is to enforce the law. That's it! Israel is in violation of over 200 resolutions and have been occupying land that isn't their's since 1967. If they won't leave voluntarily, then they should be forced to.

We need to remember, this is not a war. It is not an equal conflict. There is not an equal amount of hate on both sides. Both sides to do not have equal amounts of extremists. This is a conflict between the most militarized country on the planet and a population under occupation that is not even allowed to have weapons to defend itself.

 

[Hyrcanus]

So, is it your opinion then that people should take a 'more reasonable' approach to those who've declared themselves eternal enemies and sworn to destroy them? (as per the foundational documents of the PLO/PA and HAMAS)

eternal enemies?

hardly.

 

[MHunterB]

Why did Maimonides *leave* Spain? Various areas of Spain were under Muslim control for close to 800 years: the Reconquista wasn't completed until the fall of Grenada in 1492..... and over that 800 year period, there were several Muslim dynasties in various parts of the Iberian peninsula. As with Christian rulers, some were more and some less hostile to the minorities in their territories.

The Golden Age.

That's OUR term for our time in Muslim Spain.

"OUR"??? - I hadn't realized you were that old. Or plural. : ))

 

[Hyrcanus]

"OUR"??? - I hadn't realized you were that old. Or plural. : ))

"Our", meaning the Jews.

 

[MHunterB]

If I was President, I would bring peace to the ME in less than 6 months and this is how I would do it:

1. I would tell our Ambasssador to the UN, that we will no longer protect Israel with our veto in the UNSC.
2. I would stop all weapons shipments to Israel.
3. I would freeze all Israeli assets in US banks.
4. I would outlaw AIPAC in the continental United States.
5. I would park the USS Ronald Reagan off Israel's shores.
6. Then I would submit a resolution to the UN Security Councel, telling Israel it has 90 days to end it's occupation of the OPT and get all of its military and civilian settlers out of the area.

On the 91st day, if they're not out of there, I will send in the marines, to drive those god-damn Israeli's back to Israel. Then I would set up a demilitarized zone along the Green Line and shoot anyone who came into it from either side.

All we need to do to bring peace to the ME, is to enforce the law. That's it! Israel is in violation of over 200 resolutions and have been occupying land that isn't their's since 1967. If they won't leave voluntarily, then they should be forced to.

We need to remember, this is not a war. It is not an equal conflict. There is not an equal amount of hate on both sides. Both sides to do not have equal amounts of extremists. This is a conflict between the most militarized country on the planet and a population under occupation that is not even allowed to have weapons to defend itself.

That's all very well and good, but it appears to me that you'd quickly run afoul of certain Constitutional provisions. And whatever else is going on, I don't think trampling the Constitution underfoot is ever a good way for the US to proceed.

 

[Hyrcanus]

Palestinians need to lower their expectations, and the Israelis need to put aside their extremist desires.

 

[MHunterB]

As long as the palestinian constitution calls for the destruction of the Jewish state and the world wide slaughter of Jews peace is not possible.

The Palestinian....what?????

They call it a 'charter' - but it serves the same 'mission statement' function as a foundational document: it's the basis of their government.

 

[MHunterB]

Palestinians need to lower their expectations, and the Israelis need to put aside their extremist desires.

What do you want to suggest as 'lowered expectations' - and what 'extremist desires' do you see 'Israelis' (which Israelis?) as having?

 

[Hyrcanus]

They call it a 'charter' - but it serves the same 'mission statement' function as a foundational document: it's the basis of their government.

The PLO Charter in no way, shape, or form, acts as a Constitution for any state.

It is no more a gathering of laws than our Declaration of Independence.

 

[Hyrcanus]

Palestinians need to lower their expectations, and the Israelis need to put aside their extremist desires.

What do you want to suggest as 'lowered expectations' - and what 'extremist desires' do you see 'Israelis' (which Israelis?) as having?

The Palestinians must accept that parts of East Jerusalem will be kept by Israel, along with parts of the Old City.

They must accept that most Palestinians will "return" to the West Bank.

No more than maybe 100,000 refugees will be allowed back to Israel.

The Israelis must accept the same.

 

[MHunterB]

"OUR"??? - I hadn't realized you were that old. Or plural. : ))

"Our", meaning the Jews.

OIC. Well, there's a rather long yet amusing anecdote which precedes this quote... I think I'll tell it over in the Coffee Shop here, maybe tomorrow. At any rate, the 'punch line' is "We ain't gonna be on no first name basis, buddy."

Golden age of Jewish culture in Spain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As I tried to explain to you twice before, the 'Golden Age' doesn't refer to the entre period of Muslim rule in Spain - far from it.

 

[Hyrcanus]

Israelis must isolate and marginalize their extremists if Israel is to survive.

 

[MHunterB]

They call it a 'charter' - but it serves the same 'mission statement' function as a foundational document: it's the basis of their government.

The PLO Charter in no way, shape, or form, acts as a Constitution for any state.

It is no more a gathering of laws than our Declaration of Independence.

Nope, it's a bit more than the Declaration: it's quite long and involved and is basically what I stated, a 'mission statement' for the Palestinian proto-state. Our Declaration didn't cover that much.

Of course any two documents wouldn't be exact parallels: they were written for different groups.

 

[MHunterB]

Israelis must isolate and marginalize their extremists if Israel is to survive.

So must the Palestinians.