Breaking: Charleston SC, white male shoots 8 people at Souths oldest black church

[Bush92]

All crime is hateful and anti-social if you believe in Rousseau and Locke. Law's based on emotions or assumptions open our nation and its liberty up to Orwellian abuses by the federal government.

I agree. But if you take 'hate crime' to mean politically motivated crime with the intent of sparking public hatred and violence toward specific groups, I'd say this qualified. He was clearly intending to start a race war.

the Supreme Court clarified free-speech cases in Brandenburg v. Ohio 1967 (?) that the case turned upon whether or not people were going to follow the word's of the defendant. Brandenburg was a White supremacist that advocated that White's must overthrow the U.S. government. He was arrested under an Ohio state law against subversion of the government. The High Court ruled that there must be evidence that people would actually follow through on the defendants avocations. The Court ruled that Brandenburg was a nut case and no right minded individual would pay attention to anything he said. Same with kook in Charleston. He can advocate all he wants...but no one is going to follow.

Uh huh... and you think there's zero chance that this will spark more riots? And inspire more racists nuts to flip out? He might not get his 'race war', but there's a very real risk his act will prompt other violence.

I'm not big on the idea of 'hate crimes' myself. I think the concept is a stretch, and often dumbed to the simplistic idea of being any crime inspired by hatred.

His actions should not spark violence from sane law abiding citizens.

 

[sealybobo]

What makes hate crime law racist, is the laws attempt to set the interest of one race above the interests of others.

FYI: such is the nature of Relativism.

But this does prove the foolish nature of subjectivism ... And why it can never serve justice.

not true because if a group of white guys beat up a black guy that could be a hate crime just like if a bunch of black guys beat up a white guy because he's white that's a hate crime - also

Well, Crime is by its nature, hateful... That's why we call it crime and not "Rufus didn't pay for those shoes'.

It's a crime because Rufus stole property from Mr. Penney, who was selling those shoes to feed his family and the families of those he hired to sell his goods. When one steals the property of others they are disrespecting that persons humanity; he is showing that he has no regard for the rights of Mr.Penney; rights which were a gift to Mr. Penney, from God. Thus Rufus was demonstrating a disrespect for; or an offense against, or a sin against God; OKA: Hate.

So, there's no reason to reframe the issue as "Hateful", when the word Crime already does that.

Now, with that said; and as I pointed out above and as I have pointed out hundreds of times throughout this board, Hate Crimes are SUBJECTIVE... and it is a RARE day when a "Hate" crime is set against a black person for a crime against a white person, or where a Hate-crime is declared where a homosexual person murders a straight person. And where subjectivism enters the law, the law fails to serve justice.

Simple stuff... Law only works where it remains OBJECTIVE.

It is objective. If there is evidence that objectively proves that the crime was motivated by hatred of a particular race, it is a hate crime. For example, a man goes into a bkack church and announces that he going to shoot all the black folks there cause they be raping the white women and, later, when he us arrested, he says he did it to start a race war, that would be be objective proof of a hate crime. Get it?

I asked him why some murderers get the death penalty and some get life. Clearly some murders are worse than others. Why? I suspect the motivation.

If I kill my wife for cheating on me its not the same as Jeffrey Dahmer.

And Jeff didn't even get the death penalty.

This guy deserves the death penalty for multiple homicides. But not a so called "hate crime."

Well at least you understand not all crimes are created equal. When it is determined the crime was the result of " hate bigotry or racism" the punishment will be greater, which is the purpose of hate crime laws.

Maybe hate crime laws will prevent hate crimes.

Here's a problem with hate crimes though. Let's say a black bites off more than they can chew with me and while giving them the beat down I say the N word. That's not a hate crime.

 

[sealybobo]

All crime is hateful and anti-social if you believe in Rousseau and Locke. Law's based on emotions or assumptions open our nation and its liberty up to Orwellian abuses by the federal government.

I agree. But if you take 'hate crime' to mean politically motivated crime with the intent of sparking public hatred and violence toward specific groups, I'd say this qualified. He was clearly intending to start a race war.

the Supreme Court clarified free-speech cases in Brandenburg v. Ohio 1967 (?) that the case turned upon whether or not people were going to follow the word's of the defendant. Brandenburg was a White supremacist that advocated that White's must overthrow the U.S. government. He was arrested under an Ohio state law against subversion of the government. The High Court ruled that there must be evidence that people would actually follow through on the defendants avocations. The Court ruled that Brandenburg was a nut case and no right minded individual would pay attention to anything he said. Same with kook in Charleston. He can advocate all he wants...but no one is going to follow.

Uh huh... and you think there's zero chance that this will spark more riots? And inspire more racists nuts to flip out? He might not get his 'race war', but there's a very real risk his act will prompt other violence.

I'm not big on the idea of 'hate crimes' myself. I think the concept is a stretch, and often dumbed to the simplistic idea of being any crime inspired by hatred.

His actions should not spark violence from sane law abiding citizens.

My brother just flew in from Europe and noticed blacks at home depot acting different. He didn't know what happened but could tell something was wrong.

Can you blame black people for being fed up with us crackers?

 

[sealybobo]

All crime is hateful and anti-social if you believe in Rousseau and Locke. Law's based on emotions or assumptions open our nation and its liberty up to Orwellian abuses by the federal government.

So we should treat all murder the same? My buddy got in a spring break fight and got 20 years. Should he get the same punishment as this guy? Pre meditation plays a part in the decision and so should the persons emotions. Hate being his emotion.

Sorry it's not as black and white as you'd like.

 

[sealybobo]

What makes hate crime law racist, is the laws attempt to set the interest of one race above the interests of others.

FYI: such is the nature of Relativism.

But this does prove the foolish nature of subjectivism ... And why it can never serve justice.

not true because if a group of white guys beat up a black guy that could be a hate crime just like if a bunch of black guys beat up a white guy because he's white that's a hate crime - also

Well, Crime is by its nature, hateful... That's why we call it crime and not "Rufus didn't pay for those shoes'.

It's a crime because Rufus stole property from Mr. Penney, who was selling those shoes to feed his family and the families of those he hired to sell his goods. When one steals the property of others they are disrespecting that persons humanity; he is showing that he has no regard for the rights of Mr.Penney; rights which were a gift to Mr. Penney, from God. Thus Rufus was demonstrating a disrespect for; or an offense against, or a sin against God; OKA: Hate.

So, there's no reason to reframe the issue as "Hateful", when the word Crime already does that.

Now, with that said; and as I pointed out above and as I have pointed out hundreds of times throughout this board, Hate Crimes are SUBJECTIVE... and it is a RARE day when a "Hate" crime is set against a black person for a crime against a white person, or where a Hate-crime is declared where a homosexual person murders a straight person. And where subjectivism enters the law, the law fails to serve justice.

Simple stuff... Law only works where it remains OBJECTIVE.

It is objective. If there is evidence that objectively proves that the crime was motivated by hatred of a particular race, it is a hate crime. For example, a man goes into a bkack church and announces that he going to shoot all the black folks there cause they be raping the white women and, later, when he us arrested, he says he did it to start a race war, that would be be objective proof of a hate crime. Get it?

I asked him why some murderers get the death penalty and some get life. Clearly some murders are worse than others. Why? I suspect the motivation.

If I kill my wife for cheating on me its not the same as Jeffrey Dahmer.

And Jeff didn't even get the death penalty.

Are you being serious?

Crimes of passion such as you describe are not typically prep planned... Or premeditated. A rush of emotion crippling the means to reason, establishing an irrational state initiate a violent attack which results in death. Such an act is hardly equitable with an individual who plots to strip another of their life for the sake of satisfying a perverse sexual craving... Resulting in the slow; agonizing death of the victim, which ends in their evisceration and their organs consumed by the Leftist who simply Identifies as a homosexual homicidal cannibal.

That you can't understand the distinction in how the two starkly distinct circumstances deserve starkly distinct punishment, the former a regrettable circumstance where emotion over powers reason creating catastrophic destruction of the victim and the perpetrator and the latter the result of a perversely deluded mind of a merciless predator.

So you do see the difference? Then we agree. Not all murders are equal.. Jeff Dahmer was a hate crime. He clearly hated blacks gays and himself. Hell the world.

 

[gipper]

There is a reason the GOP is strong in the South...racism....

If that were true and it isn't, then for over 100 years after the Civil War the South voted D exclusively.

Using your 'logic' that means the D Party was strong in the South because of racism.

 

[EverCurious]

Uf I end up on fire watch and refugee assistance at the cabin for a week and shit hits the fan while I'm gone...

Still catching up on this story, but this dude sounds like a drugged up nut case; my sympathies to the families caught in the mis-fire of his brain and heart. What the fuck kind of person sits though a church service before killing the people in the pews next to him? That's even more messed up than other mass shootings.

 

[2aguy]

More white folks acting ugly....


Westboro Baptist Church To Spread Their Hate At The Funerals Of Charleston Shooting Victims

The empty souls of the Westboro Baptist Church are going to picket the funerals of the nine people murdered in a terrorist act, which they say is a…

The founder of the westboror baptist church voted for al gore, and was a democrat.......

 

[2aguy]

Dylann Roof's Manifesto

Dylann Roof, the 21-year-old charged with killing nine people in Charleston, South Carolina, this week, allegedly wrote a lengthy, racist manifesto on a website he created this year, according to Gawker and The Daily Beast.

The website, "The Last Rhodesian," includes a passage about why the writer, identified as Roof, chose Charleston.

I have no choice. I am not in the position to, alone, go into the ghetto and fight. I chose Charleston because it is most historic city in my state, and at one time had the highest ratio of blacks to Whites in the country. We have no skinheads, no real KKK, no one doing anything but talking on the internet. Well someone has to have the bravery to take it to the real world, and I guess that has to be me.​

Complete Manifesto: Manifesto Of Accused Charleston Shooter Reportedly Found Online

Here Is What Appears to Be Dylann Roof's Racist Manifesto - Gawker

Alleged Dylann Roof Manifesto Found - The Daily Beast

How could his parents not have known about his extreme racist hatred? Are they the source? How many more homegrown racist terrorists like him are out there?

A lot less than home grown muslim terrorists...but you guys don't seem to worried about them......

 

[2aguy]

They don't use them because they choose not to...except in Marseille they use them a lot there...they get them easily despite the extreme anti gun laws in Europe.

YOu mean, they don't let crazy people buy guns or people who don't need them? Yeah, that's extreme.

France has 258 gun homicides a year to our 11,000.

And their criminals get fully automatic, military rifles easily....and they have extreme gun control in Europe......

 

[JoeB131]

thta one looks photoshopped.

 

[2aguy]

the same folks who scream that Democrats are coddling the Negro with "free shit" are also screaming that the preferred party of someone like the Right wing neo confederate goofy gun nut who slaughtered 9 Blacks is the Democratic party...I bet that beats all you all ever saw...

fringe racist white hate groups have no love for the gop.

and why should they?

the gop has been pro-civil rights the whole way back, and up to present day.

Exactly.....the democrats though.....slavery, kkk, jim crow lunchings, poll taxes and literacy tests and they used the Great Society to create dependence in the black community....how has that worked out in Chicago, Baltimore, Detroit, D.C..........

 

[JoeB131]

And their criminals get fully automatic, military rifles easily....and they have extreme gun control in Europe......

Uh, not really. considering that these sorts of things only happen once a decade in a European country.

 

[Correll]

"The event that truly awakened me was the Trayvon Martin case," the suspected gunman wrote.
—Mother Jones

john hinkley was motived because he knew that he and jodie foster had something going.

sane people should not be held responsible for the delusions of the mad.

Except that the actions of Roof are rooted in a matrix of political beliefs that are shared by many such as conservative right wingers the backbone of the GOP...nobody shared any of the Hinkley beliefs about Jody Foster

think try to think

Exactly. How many times have we heard "they're raping our women" or something very much like it, on these very forums? You fling that bullshit around long enough and some idiots will believe it. And then you give 'em a gun? It's a wonder this isn't happening more often than it does.

if you are referring to the discussions about proportionally high black on white crime, especially with rape, it is not bullshit.


only idiots DON'T believe it.


so, what are we supposed to do, not talk about real issues that are resulting in real death and suffering because it is politically incorrect?

wait. that is exactly what you want is it not?

you would rather have people dying than facing a politically incorrect truth.

 

[2aguy]

American conservatives are right wing racist bigots and frightened little ninnies....

sorry, you libs have demonstrated that you are the bigots here.


this one shooter is not representative of the American south and only a bigot would claim otherwise.

Not so fast...


Council of Conservative Citizens

The manifesto refers to the council as a source of research into "black on White crime." The council is a conservative group with white supremacist leanings, considered by the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) to be part of the "neo-confederate movement." It was founded by members of Citizens' Councils of America, also known as White Citizens Councils, a confederation of segregationist groups active until the 1970s. In more recent years, the Council of Conservative Citizens has made the news when it was revealed that former US Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott had given speeches to the group. It was also extremely active in the demonstrations to keep the Confederate battle flag flying over the state capitol of South Carolina between 1993 and 2000.

and a follower of the Southern Poverty Law Center went to the Family Research Council headquarters to do a mass shooting, and shot a guard before the guard stopped him.....obviously, according to you, they are an actual hate group that are to blame for that guys action.......

 

[2aguy]

And their criminals get fully automatic, military rifles easily....and they have extreme gun control in Europe......

Uh, not really. considering that these sorts of things only happen once a decade in a European country.

No...they happen all the time in Marseille, they have several shootings in France, recently against a Jewish school, they just happened in Belgium, Denmark, Sweden, and they have had attacks with guns and a hand grenade in Britain......and they are increasing because the Europeans are importing immigrants from countries where violence is the norm...vs...European national pacifism....there crime and violence rates are going to go up.....

 

[JoeB131]

we went off topic to discuss obama's statement.

obama made a comment about mass violence.

it was being discussed as the paraphrase of mass murder.

joe changed to wording to a very different word, shooting instead of murder, in order to make his point.

i was just pointing out that he felt he had to.

and that he tried to slide that little adjustment past us dishonestly.

odd you couldn't grasp that fact.

you being so smart and all.

so, do you have anything to actually say about that?

lol, rhetorical question, i know the answer is no.

guy, nobody does "mass violence" without a gun. You are a complete retard. I know it's a tough week for Southern Retards, as one of your own just got caught doing something really stupid.

 

[2aguy]

wow. you just proved that there is at least one racist anti-obama person on the internet.

good job.

you do not recall the use of "Food stamp" President in reference to Obama by mayor players in the conservative movement...short memory problems eh...

More people are on food stamps under obama....that is the truth...only you guys used it as a smear to silence people talking about his economic policies.....that is not a racist issue, that is an obama doesn't know how to create jobs issue...

But you and your democrat allies in the media used the cry of "racism" to silence that discussion...just like "golf" is racist and any number of words.....remember that?

 

[JoeB131]

No...they happen all the time in Marseille, they have several shootings in France, recently against a Jewish school, they just happened in Belgium, Denmark, Sweden, and they have had attacks with guns and a hand grenade in Britain......and they are increasing because the Europeans are importing immigrants from countries where violence is the norm...vs...European national pacifism....there crime and violence rates are going to go up.....

The point is you have to list a BUNCH of countries to get multiple citations.

Here's an easy way. I will let you pick ANY Industrial Democracy you want, and you list all the mass shootings that have happened in just that ONE country.

I will list all the mass shooting that have happened in the United States in the same time period.

And as every gun nut like you probably fears hearing, "I'll bet you mine is longer!"

 

[2aguy]

"The event that truly awakened me was the Trayvon Martin case," the suspected gunman wrote.
—Mother Jones

john hinkley was motived because he knew that he and jodie foster had something going.

sane people should not be held responsible for the delusions of the mad.

Except that the actions of Roof are rooted in a matrix of political beliefs that are shared by many such as conservative right wingers the backbone of the GOP...nobody shared any of the Hinkley beliefs about Jody Foster

think try to think

the unibomber was spot on with the green weenies.

are they marginalized in your mind?

are you one of them?

what environmental group are you linking him too....is it mentioned in his manifesto ?

and of course al gore's book was found in his hovel.......remember that...so I guess al gore supports sending bombs to people and is culpable for the unibomber...right?