Blackwater case dismissed

[Si modo]

No matter. If the atrocities continue, and I've little doubt that they will, the people of Iraq will pick up the slack left by the capricious American justice system and take care of the Blackwater problem themselves. They have made it quite clear that mercenaries are not welcome; I feel inclined to share their sentiment, especially in light of the murders that were recently excused.

You must be so proud of your terrorist heroes' feats in that pic.

I find it difficult to feel sympathy for dead Crusaders, if that's what you mean. I must say, it bewilders me that some people truly believe that foreign mercenaries are "heroes" and those who attempt to address the problem are "terrorists." I would certainly attempt to do similar things to foreign mercenaries who occupied the US, as would many other posters here of fighting age, I imagine.

Blackwater accused of murder in 'crusade to eliminate Muslims' - Times Online

Not at all what I mean. I mean that you must be so proud of your terrorist heroes' feats in that pic.

You know, the pieces of shit who murdered, mutilated, then strung up from the bridge four Americans who were escorting food delivery to US troops (your countrymen, theoretically)? Your idea of what a crusader is is fucking insane.

 

[CurveLight]

It's too bad you know next to NOTHING about SOFA's and how they are applied as you have never served your country....
Here's the glaring point you so deftly missed...


are you getting all this yet?

You dumbass. You cited the very sentence that proves your claim wrong then try to say it supports your bullshit. You claimed soldiers cannot be prosecuted by foreign governments:

"First of all...our military has the same rules applied to them...no foreign prosecutions allowed....you got that down yet?"


So in response I gave one example of a foreign government prosecuting US soldiers and you still try to say your claim is legit? Rotfl! SOFA limitations show you are fucking clueless. The SOFA, like the VFA, is what grants local governments jurisdiction over our military. Apparently, you want to further embarrass yourself so let me help out by giving you more facts:

"However, most crimes by service members against local civilians occur off duty, and in accordance with the local SOFA are considered subject to local jurisdiction. Details of the SOFAs can still prompt issues. In Japan, for example, the U.S. SOFA includes the provision that service members are not turned over to the local authorities until they are charged in a court."
Status of Forces Agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


"The text of the VFA (under Article V) is unequivocal on Philippine jurisdiction over visiting US military personnel convicted of violating our national laws. Moreover, the High Court's ruling made it clear that Philippine authorities should have custody over the convicted rapist Smith."
Press Release - Pia: Suspend VFA until convicted US soldier-rapist is taken under RP custody


I've provided examples of three different foreign governments who possess the legal authority to prosecute US soldiers. How the fuck are you going to dance around this one? Then you try to claim if someone hasn't served they cannot know about SOFAs? Thasssss some seriously dumb shit. I've never served inside the space shuttle but I am aware it exists.

You are a worthless libtard anti-military piece os shit....what the fuck are you babbling about now? VFA...SOFA...make up your mind...

At any rate...not only did Starkey LIE about being involved in a case, your ignorance of anything military is so glaringingly obvious that when you make a post about military subjects you appear to be the class dunce.

SOFA's ARE NEVER applied in time of war with respect to combat operations.

Your so fucking dishonest...first we go from war time operations where U.S. soldiers NEVER have the SOFA, if there is even one in place, applied to their cases to Korea and then to the Philippine VFA....wow...you're really grasping for straw to prove an unprovable point...best you just shut the fuck up while you're behind.

Your little temper tantrum is funny. You claimed no foreign governments can prosecute US soldiers. I provided evidence that is not true. Are you late for a diaper change? Is that why you are kicking and screaming?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

You dumbass. You cited the very sentence that proves your claim wrong then try to say it supports your bullshit. You claimed soldiers cannot be prosecuted by foreign governments:

"First of all...our military has the same rules applied to them...no foreign prosecutions allowed....you got that down yet?"


So in response I gave one example of a foreign government prosecuting US soldiers and you still try to say your claim is legit? Rotfl! SOFA limitations show you are fucking clueless. The SOFA, like the VFA, is what grants local governments jurisdiction over our military. Apparently, you want to further embarrass yourself so let me help out by giving you more facts:

"However, most crimes by service members against local civilians occur off duty, and in accordance with the local SOFA are considered subject to local jurisdiction. Details of the SOFAs can still prompt issues. In Japan, for example, the U.S. SOFA includes the provision that service members are not turned over to the local authorities until they are charged in a court."
Status of Forces Agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


"The text of the VFA (under Article V) is unequivocal on Philippine jurisdiction over visiting US military personnel convicted of violating our national laws. Moreover, the High Court's ruling made it clear that Philippine authorities should have custody over the convicted rapist Smith."
Press Release - Pia: Suspend VFA until convicted US soldier-rapist is taken under RP custody


I've provided examples of three different foreign governments who possess the legal authority to prosecute US soldiers. How the fuck are you going to dance around this one? Then you try to claim if someone hasn't served they cannot know about SOFAs? Thasssss some seriously dumb shit. I've never served inside the space shuttle but I am aware it exists.

You are a worthless libtard anti-military piece os shit....what the fuck are you babbling about now? VFA...SOFA...make up your mind...

At any rate...not only did Starkey LIE about being involved in a case, your ignorance of anything military is so glaringingly obvious that when you make a post about military subjects you appear to be the class dunce.

SOFA's ARE NEVER applied in time of war with respect to combat operations.

Your so fucking dishonest...first we go from war time operations where U.S. soldiers NEVER have the SOFA, if there is even one in place, applied to their cases to Korea and then to the Philippine VFA....wow...you're really grasping for straw to prove an unprovable point...best you just shut the fuck up while you're behind.

Your little temper tantrum is funny. You claimed no foreign governments can prosecute US soldiers. I provided evidence that is not true. Are you late for a diaper change? Is that why you are kicking and screaming?

They can only prosecute based on either a treaty agreement we signed or because they won a war that we lost. In the case of Iraq and Blackwater the TREATY stated they had no authority, NOT even the dems in charge now deny that.

 

[goldcatt]

thats not true, it is not only prosecutors that can grant immunity, congress grants immunity frequently....the facts of the case are clear, the statements were given under promise of immunity (i believe contractual) because they were forced to give statements to the government

Under what circumstances does Congress grant immunity, Yurt? And to whom?

While you're figuring that out, go back to first premises. We're talking about a criminal prosecution here. Under the Fifth, nobody can be compelled to testify against himself (or herself). That includes statements under oath in court or statements given to investigators, interrogators or any other government entity eliciting information which could lead to criminal penalties.

The only way testimony can be compelled is under a grant of immunity from prosecution, thereby removing any criminal penalty for the forced testimony. With no possibility of criminal penalty resulting from the testimony, the Fifth is not compromised.

There is no reason to offer, promise or grant immunity other than to compel otherwise self-incriminating testimony - none. With me so far?

Blackwater was employed by the Department of State. No contract to which the State Department is a party, such as the contract between the US Government and Blackwater, can confer immunity for criminal acts. The State Department has no prosecutorial discretion and cannot use contempt powers, only the Department of Justice has that power. Think it through.

Any statement or testimony compelled by a government agent under promise of immunity, even if that agent cannot actually grant the immunity, cannot be used in court as evidence if that person is brought up on criminal charges. Further, no information gained as a result of the tainted statement can be used as evidence. The statement itself is a "poisonous tree", any information gained as a result is its "fruit" and also tainted

From there it gets complicated, but the gist of the ruling here is that the statements were compelled and therefore tainted under the Fifth. The prosecution did not properly insulate the rest of its evidence which resulted in that also being tainted. The judge dismissed the charges without prejudice, meaning if the government can get its act together and try again with clean evidence it is free to do so. I personally hope they can and do.

Sorry about the novel here but if you think about it, it really isn't all that complicated.

you really don't know that congress can and does grant immunity, yet you want to continue to debate this with me? good lord, a 5 second google search could have saved you this embarrassment....

do you even realize you just argued against your earlier statement? you just proved my point and the judges ruling....and yet, with all that analysis (spot on btw), you still don't know that congress can and does grant immunity....

i'm surprised....i doubt the government will retry the case....if they had a case without the excluded evidence, they would have built it...after repeated warnings from higher ups, the guys trying the case continued to use exclusionary evidence, a no no and an important foundation of our legal system. this case is done.

Read my post, dumbass., I said "usually". When you're talking about these issues there are all sorts of levels of complexity and nuance involved. Of course Congress can grant immunity in some cases. But they do not and cannot grant blanket immunity to individual criminal defendants. And they have not granted immunity that covers these particular defendants.

Riddle me this: If these defendants had obtained Congressional imunity from prosecution somehow, magically, without an Act to sustain it, how is it the judge dismissed the charges without prejudice?

"Without prejudice" of course meaning he did not find they are immune from prosecution, and can be charged again. With clean evidence.

One more time: The problem is evidentiary, NOT that these bastards are immune. Immunity, jurisdiction and evidence are three distinct and separate issues. Don't confuse them. Some of my earlier posts may not have been clear, and for that I apologize. But the only way immunity enters into the picture here is as it relates to the statements compelled from the defendants and the fruit of those statements. There is no grand conspiracy or blanket immunity, somebody just plain old screwed the pooch.

 

[CurveLight]

You are a worthless libtard anti-military piece os shit....what the fuck are you babbling about now? VFA...SOFA...make up your mind...

At any rate...not only did Starkey LIE about being involved in a case, your ignorance of anything military is so glaringingly obvious that when you make a post about military subjects you appear to be the class dunce.

SOFA's ARE NEVER applied in time of war with respect to combat operations.

Your so fucking dishonest...first we go from war time operations where U.S. soldiers NEVER have the SOFA, if there is even one in place, applied to their cases to Korea and then to the Philippine VFA....wow...you're really grasping for straw to prove an unprovable point...best you just shut the fuck up while you're behind.

Your little temper tantrum is funny. You claimed no foreign governments can prosecute US soldiers. I provided evidence that is not true. Are you late for a diaper change? Is that why you are kicking and screaming?

They can only prosecute based on either a treaty agreement we signed or because they won a war that we lost. In the case of Iraq and Blackwater the TREATY stated they had no authority, NOT even the dems in charge now deny that.

First of all the claim was no foreign governments can prosecute US soldiers. That claim is bullshit as has been demonstrated. Second, a Treaty? What fucking Treaty? We invaded and overthrew the iraq government. Once we wiped out the government who the hell was capable of singing a Treaty? Do you have the first clue about colonialism?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Your little temper tantrum is funny. You claimed no foreign governments can prosecute US soldiers. I provided evidence that is not true. Are you late for a diaper change? Is that why you are kicking and screaming?

They can only prosecute based on either a treaty agreement we signed or because they won a war that we lost. In the case of Iraq and Blackwater the TREATY stated they had no authority, NOT even the dems in charge now deny that.

First of all the claim was no foreign governments can prosecute US soldiers. That claim is bullshit as has been demonstrated. Second, a Treaty? What fucking Treaty? We invaded and overthrew the iraq government. Once we wiped out the government who the hell was capable of singing a Treaty? Do you have the first clue about colonialism?

RETARD ALERT. We helped form a Government which by the time of this supposed atrocity was in power. Said Government AGREED to a treaty exemption all US personnel employed by the US Government from Iraqi Judicial control. Keep up stupid. And no one ever claimed no US Soldier is ever totally immune in all cases from foreign Government Justice just that LEGAL TREATIES determine what rights the foreign Government has over US troops and employees. YOU created the red herring that anyone claimed otherwise. As has been explained already the actual statement was not that no foreign Government ever has authority.

 

[CurveLight]

They can only prosecute based on either a treaty agreement we signed or because they won a war that we lost. In the case of Iraq and Blackwater the TREATY stated they had no authority, NOT even the dems in charge now deny that.

First of all the claim was no foreign governments can prosecute US soldiers. That claim is bullshit as has been demonstrated. Second, a Treaty? What fucking Treaty? We invaded and overthrew the iraq government. Once we wiped out the government who the hell was capable of singing a Treaty? Do you have the first clue about colonialism?

RETARD ALERT. We helped form a Government which by the time of this supposed atrocity was in power. Said Government AGREED to a treaty exemption all US personnel employed by the US Government from Iraqi Judicial control. Keep up stupid. And no one ever claimed no US Soldier is ever totally immune in all cases from foreign Government Justice just that LEGAL TREATIES determine what rights the foreign Government has over US troops and employees. YOU created the red herring that anyone claimed otherwise. As has been explained already the actual statement was not that no foreign Government ever has authority.

You truly are one arrogant and ignorant bastard. The dumbass claimed no foreign prosecutions allowed. You keep ignoring that. Want proof you look only at what you think will help your bullshit spitting? The law that gave Blackwater immunity was not issued by any Treaty with any Iraqi government you dumbass. It was a decree issued by the CPA (aka-US government) back in 2004:


"The killing of the Iraqis created tensions between the Iraqi government and Washington and the Iraqi government took steps on Monday to tighter controls on private contractors.


It approved a draft law that would scrap a decree issued by the U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) in 2004, before it handed over control to Iraqis, which granted foreign contractors immunity from prosecution in Iraq."
Blackwater immunity deal may complicate Iraq probe


Since you obviously don't have the first fucking nat's ass clue about Iraq let me educate you a bit more. The CPA was the government that ran iraq after the invasion. There was no iraqi government.
CPA-IRAQ.org: Homepage of The New Iraq - Information about the Iraqi Dinar

Why is it the strongest supporters are always the most fucking clueless?????

 

[PatekPhilippe]

Spout your left wing code pink shit somewhere else moron...the floor was mopped with your face...now move along little dogie...move along.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Patek, curvelight is right and you are wrong. That has been proved. Now be a good fellow, and mop up your failure, please.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

Thanks for posrepping me for calling you a dumbass!!!!! You're an idiot Stinkey...hang it up.

 

[CurveLight]

Spout your left wing code pink shit somewhere else moron...the floor was mopped with your face...now move along little dogie...move along.

Good job making sure you don't quote my posts that prove your ignorance. The methods you people use to avoid facts is freaking hilarious.

 

[CurveLight]

It's also not surprising Gunny
will ignore he got pwned too. He even nominated me as the most ignorant poster so it must be especially embarrassing it was clear he didn't know the immunity was a decree by the CPA and was not part of any Treaty. The fact he was ignorant wasn't the worst part. It's that he will not admit he fucked up.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

The bush admin made sure Blackwater was immune from prosecution by any Iraqi agency when their contracts were drawn.

Why does the Bush admin hate our military so much anyways? Why didn't it trust our military? Is our military really that shitty the government had to outsource security?

First of all...our military has the same rules applied to them...no foreign prosecutions allowed....you got that down yet? Second of all Blackwater(now Xe) was used, and is still being used, for security of high ranking Iraqi officials and Diplomats....THIS IS NOT WHAT THE MILITARY DOES..you got that yet? The same basic rules that apply TO STATE DEPARTMENT DIPLOMATIC SECURITY AGENTS who protect diplomats and high ranking officials in U.S. Embassy's around the world were written into the Blackwater contract!....You getting all this yet?

Man, it's too bad you don't have internet access because if you did you would have been able to find out your claim is absolutely bogus.

"Unfortunately the south Korean government does not have statistics on US soldiers' crimes committed before 1967, because SOFA (Status of Forces Agreement) went into effect in 1967, allowing the south Korean court jurisdiction over crimes committed by US soldiers with narrow and limited application."
Statistics on Crimes Committed by US Troops in south Korea

Sure seems to me that says US soldiers were tried by a foreign government.

Perfect example of how the idiot curvelight tried AND FAILED to derail the conversation from Iraq to South Korea. Korea had nothing to do with the conversation and there was NO SOFA in place in Iraq...so I'm right with respect to our soldiers status in Iraq until the current SOFA went into effect. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM WHO WAS ACCUSED OF COMMITTING A CRIME WERE ALL TRIED BY A MILITARY COURT....NOT THE IRAQI'S

This is what the conversation was about and then curvelight brought in South Korea...what's the matter...too much kimchee and soju?

 

[SableRay]

Legally dismal may be correct but many think they should be tried.

 

[CurveLight]

First of all...our military has the same rules applied to them...no foreign prosecutions allowed....you got that down yet? Second of all Blackwater(now Xe) was used, and is still being used, for security of high ranking Iraqi officials and Diplomats....THIS IS NOT WHAT THE MILITARY DOES..you got that yet? The same basic rules that apply TO STATE DEPARTMENT DIPLOMATIC SECURITY AGENTS who protect diplomats and high ranking officials in U.S. Embassy's around the world were written into the Blackwater contract!....You getting all this yet?

Man, it's too bad you don't have internet access because if you did you would have been able to find out your claim is absolutely bogus.

"Unfortunately the south Korean government does not have statistics on US soldiers' crimes committed before 1967, because SOFA (Status of Forces Agreement) went into effect in 1967, allowing the south Korean court jurisdiction over crimes committed by US soldiers with narrow and limited application."
Statistics on Crimes Committed by US Troops in south Korea

Sure seems to me that says US soldiers were tried by a foreign government.

Perfect example of how the idiot curvelight tried AND FAILED to derail the conversation from Iraq to South Korea. Korea had nothing to do with the conversation and there was NO SOFA in place in Iraq...so I'm right with respect to our soldiers status in Iraq until the current SOFA went into effect. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM WHO WAS ACCUSED OF COMMITTING A CRIME WERE ALL TRIED BY A MILITARY COURT....NOT THE IRAQI'S

This is what the conversation was about and then curvelight brought in South Korea...what's the matter...too much kimchee and soju?

You are one truly dumb tampon. You claimed our soldiers never face foreign prosecution so I used Korea as an example you are flat out wrong. Then funny gunny comes along tries to help you and reveals his own ignorance.

Here's an idea. Get about 5 or 6 of your ilk together and see if all your brains working together at full capacity would qualify to try out for Stupid Pet Tricks.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

Man, it's too bad you don't have internet access because if you did you would have been able to find out your claim is absolutely bogus.

"Unfortunately the south Korean government does not have statistics on US soldiers' crimes committed before 1967, because SOFA (Status of Forces Agreement) went into effect in 1967, allowing the south Korean court jurisdiction over crimes committed by US soldiers with narrow and limited application."
Statistics on Crimes Committed by US Troops in south Korea

Sure seems to me that says US soldiers were tried by a foreign government.

Perfect example of how the idiot curvelight tried AND FAILED to derail the conversation from Iraq to South Korea. Korea had nothing to do with the conversation and there was NO SOFA in place in Iraq...so I'm right with respect to our soldiers status in Iraq until the current SOFA went into effect. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM WHO WAS ACCUSED OF COMMITTING A CRIME WERE ALL TRIED BY A MILITARY COURT....NOT THE IRAQI'S

This is what the conversation was about and then curvelight brought in South Korea...what's the matter...too much kimchee and soju?

You are one truly dumb tampon. You claimed our soldiers never face foreign prosecution so I used Korea as an example you are flat out wrong. Then funny gunny comes along tries to help you and reveals his own ignorance.

Here's an idea. Get about 5 or 6 of your ilk together and see if all your brains working together at full capacity would qualify to try out for Stupid Pet Tricks.

Ahhhh...right....OK.....
The subject was Iraq dumb fuck.....you lose.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Yes, SOFA agreements in some countries permit trial of our soldiers by the host country's legal system. Soldiers I knew went to Korean prison farms, very nasty places. The CPA gave immunity to our soldiers in Iraq, not the Iraqi government, because there was no Iraqi government at that time.

Having cleared that up, (1) the charges were dismissed without prejudice, meaning they can be brought again, and (2) I truly hope DOJ can come up with clean evidence, instead of trying to use testimony that had been immunized. We all saw what happened with LTC North: the skell ended up walking free.

 

[Kalam]

You know, the pieces of shit who murdered, mutilated, then strung up from the bridge four Americans who were escorting food delivery to US troops (your countrymen, theoretically)? Your idea of what a crusader is is fucking insane.

I'd say that a person who works for a self-proclaimed "crusader" organization can safely be considered a crusader. Blackwater is a cancer; Iraq will provide the chemotherapy.

 

[Kalam]

Unfortunately, it would have to be with new and untainted evidence.

Essentially, then, the case is closed. I highly doubt that this will happen.

 

[Kalam]

Exactly correct...but Kalam, the boards resident "expert" legal opinion giver obviously got his law degree from The University of Buffoonery.

I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I consider myself a "legal expert."