Birth Control Mandate: Is this taking the Religous Liberty Exception too far?

[koshergrl]

Guttmacher! PP's beard!

 

[Mertex]

I have a policy of negging people, especially Christians, who use the Bible to justify their politics. Just letting you know so you won't whinge about me not being fair.

You neg because it makes you uncomfortable to realize that you are on the wrong side of scripture....

No, I neg because mixing religion and politics is an assault on humanity.

Yeah sure, from one whose party tries to deny that Thomas Jefferson was for "Separation of Church and State" and whose party tries to make laws based on religion. You're in denial or just naive.

If you think you can outwit me at theology, feel free to call me out on it. Unlike you, I actually studied the subject, and know what I am talking about.

You have no idea what I know about Scripture, how long I've studied and how long I've been a Christian, but as usual, you make your broad brush statements. You may have studied scripture but you sure don't apply it when you demean people with your comments on a regular basis.

I can also defend any theological position you want to stake out better than you can.

Sure you can, but only when you spin it to say what you want it to say, like others here, who claim to be Christian, do.

I also understand Church history, and the result of letting people use religion to justify political positions. If you want to argue in favor of something, do it without your religion, or be prepared to watch your religion take away your freedom.

I'm not free because of the government, nor am I free because of my religion, I'm free because Jesus made me free. And, unlike you, I don't worry about the government or anyone taking away my freedom, because when you know the Truth, the Truth will set you free, and you are free indeed.....try it.

 

[Vox]

98% of Catholic women use birth control....I guess the Catholic church while complaining that they are being forced to pay for something against their religion, is at the same time forcing women to adhere to their anti-contraceptive beliefs. They on't believe in "what's fair for the goose is fair for the gander"....

link, liar

You are truly devoid of any facts, aren't you. You have the nerve calling people liars when you are the one that lies, every time you open your mouth.

■
■
Among all women who have had sex, 99% have ever used a contraceptive method other than natural family planning.This figure is virtually the same, 98%, among sexually experienced Catholic women.[
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/Religion-and-Contraceptive-Use.pdf

nothing form motherjones, only guttmacher?

I am disappointed. motherjones would say 104%

 

[Mertex]

Catholic women are perfectly free to use birth control.

But the church cannot be compelled to provide it.

As usual, you base your comments on your own personal experience, and you are usually wrong.

And, you are wrong on this one too. Since you have a computer, it's amazing that you don't make use of it to keep you from appearing so uninformed. Share this link with your uniformed cohort, she also seems to be lacking in common knowledge.


In 1968, Pope Paul VI issued his landmark encyclical letter Humanae Vitae (Latin, "Human Life"), which reemphasized the Church’s constant teaching that it is always intrinsically wrong to use contraception to prevent new human beings from coming into existence.

Contraception is "any action which, either in anticipation of the conjugal act [sexual intercourse], or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" (Humanae Vitae 14). This includes sterilization, condoms and other barrier methods, spermicides, coitus interruptus (withdrawal method), the Pill, and all other such methods.


Birth Control | Catholic Answers

 

[Mertex]

link, liar

You are truly devoid of any facts, aren't you. You have the nerve calling people liars when you are the one that lies, every time you open your mouth.

■
■
Among all women who have had sex, 99% have ever used a contraceptive method other than natural family planning.This figure is virtually the same, 98%, among sexually experienced Catholic women.[
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/Religion-and-Contraceptive-Use.pdf

nothing form motherjones, only guttmacher?

I am disappointed. motherjones would say 104%

I'm not surprised that you don't have rebuttal. Whose the liar now?

 

[dblack]

Catholic women are perfectly free to use birth control.

But the church cannot be compelled to provide it.

As usual, you base your comments on your own personal experience, and you are usually wrong.

And, you are wrong on this one too. Since you have a computer, it's amazing that you don't make use of it to keep you from appearing so uninformed. Share this link with your uniformed cohort, she also seems to be lacking in common knowledge.


In 1968, Pope Paul VI issued his landmark encyclical letter Humanae Vitae (Latin, "Human Life"), which reemphasized the Church’s constant teaching that it is always intrinsically wrong to use contraception to prevent new human beings from coming into existence.

Contraception is "any action which, either in anticipation of the conjugal act [sexual intercourse], or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" (Humanae Vitae 14). This includes sterilization, condoms and other barrier methods, spermicides, coitus interruptus (withdrawal method), the Pill, and all other such methods.


Birth Control | Catholic Answers

Unlike government, the Church has exactly no power to coerce anyone. Do you understand what free means in a political context?

 

[paperview]

This is a very good article on the matter, written from the perspective of apparently right-leaning legal mind...

Recommend:

<snip>

Thoughts on the Little Sisters of the Poor v. Sebelius stay

Submitted by Simon on Sun, 01/05/2014 - 4:06pm We consider the other stay being sought before Justice Sotomayor, the Little Sisters of the Poor case.

I had thought that the premise of the Sisters' case was (like the other cases in motion) "we're subject to the mandate." But having read the Application and Response, I no longer understand how this case works.

The Response insists that the Sisters ARE "eligible for religious accommodations set out in the regulations," and that that the Sisters "need only self-certify that they are non-profit organizations that hold themselves out as religious and have religious objections to providing coverage for contraceptive services, and then provide a copy of their self-certification to the third-party administrator of their self-insured group health plan."

Sure, you say, but that's the government; the Application contests that, right? Alas, it does not. To the contrary, the Application claims certification precisely as the harm that they will suffer absent relief:

"Without an emergency injunction, Mother Provincial Loraine Marie Maguire has to decide between two courses of action: (a) sign and submit a self-certification form, thereby violating her religious beliefs; or (b) refuse to sign the form and pay ruinous fines. &#8230; [T]he precise act that violates their religion &#8230; [is] 'complet[ing] a self-certification form and provid[ing] it to" the insurers.

In other words, the harm that the Sisters are claiming isn't that they will be subject to the Mandate but that they will have to certify that they aren't. That's puzzling and weak.

When I try to harmonize the language of the two alternatives, here's what I get: The sisters insist that they can't in good conscience &#8220;contract, arrange, pay, or refer for contraceptive coverage.&#8221; I understand. I agree. They furthermore insist that they can't in good conscience contract with an insurance provider that arranges or pays for contraceptive coverage at no direct cost to the sisters. And that, truth to tell, I just don't understand.

It's looking more and more like a case of "right case, wrong plaintiffs."

Thoughts on the Little Sisters of the Poor v. Sebelius stay | Stubborn Facts

I'm beginning to wonder if Sotomayor is using this case to bring to light the weakness inherent in the absurdity of simply filing paperwork is too onerous and sinful -- even as the plaintiffs agree they will not be forced to provide BC coverage. We shall see.

Plenty of people are sure talking about it now - and that's a good thing.

 

[Mertex]

Catholic women are perfectly free to use birth control.

But the church cannot be compelled to provide it.

As usual, you base your comments on your own personal experience, and you are usually wrong.

And, you are wrong on this one too. Since you have a computer, it's amazing that you don't make use of it to keep you from appearing so uninformed. Share this link with your uniformed cohort, she also seems to be lacking in common knowledge.


In 1968, Pope Paul VI issued his landmark encyclical letter Humanae Vitae (Latin, "Human Life"), which reemphasized the Church’s constant teaching that it is always intrinsically wrong to use contraception to prevent new human beings from coming into existence.

Contraception is "any action which, either in anticipation of the conjugal act [sexual intercourse], or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" (Humanae Vitae 14). This includes sterilization, condoms and other barrier methods, spermicides, coitus interruptus (withdrawal method), the Pill, and all other such methods.


Birth Control | Catholic Answers

Unlike government, the Church has exactly no power to coerce anyone. Do you understand what free means in a political context?

Except that the Catholic Church considers it a sin, and Catholic women who are religious are made to feel that they are sinning if they take contraceptives. That 98% of the Catholic women take contraceptives does not negate the fact that the church is still against it.

So, what is your point?

 

[dblack]

As usual, you base your comments on your own personal experience, and you are usually wrong.

And, you are wrong on this one too. Since you have a computer, it's amazing that you don't make use of it to keep you from appearing so uninformed. Share this link with your uniformed cohort, she also seems to be lacking in common knowledge.


In 1968, Pope Paul VI issued his landmark encyclical letter Humanae Vitae (Latin, "Human Life"), which reemphasized the Church’s constant teaching that it is always intrinsically wrong to use contraception to prevent new human beings from coming into existence.

Contraception is "any action which, either in anticipation of the conjugal act [sexual intercourse], or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" (Humanae Vitae 14). This includes sterilization, condoms and other barrier methods, spermicides, coitus interruptus (withdrawal method), the Pill, and all other such methods.


Birth Control | Catholic Answers

Unlike government, the Church has exactly no power to coerce anyone. Do you understand what free means in a political context?

Except that the Catholic Church considers it a sin, and Catholic women who are religious are made to feel that they are sinning if they take contraceptives. That 98% of the Catholic women take contraceptives does not negate the fact that the church is still against it.

So, what is your point?

Just that kg's point holds. Catholic women are free to use birth control.

 

[Mertex]

Unlike government, the Church has exactly no power to coerce anyone. Do you understand what free means in a political context?

Except that the Catholic Church considers it a sin, and Catholic women who are religious are made to feel that they are sinning if they take contraceptives. That 98% of the Catholic women take contraceptives does not negate the fact that the church is still against it.

So, what is your point?

Just that kg's point holds. Catholic women are free to use birth control.

Anything that has to be done in secret or makes a person feel like they are violating their faith is not "freedom." If that was the case, the Catholic Church wouldn't be making such a big deal out of it, since they don't have to pay for it.
If you want to consider that as "freedom," you are as uninformed as kg.


It has always been difficult to be a woman and a member of the Catholic Church. Many of my friends have left the church. The lessons we learned in Catholic school don't always apply to the real world. Too many women are tired of feeling like sinners for the simple, societally accepted acts of birth control, sex before marriage, in vitro, and a myriad of other issues the Catholic Church condemns.
It is difficult to be a Catholic and a scientist or doctor. Modern medical research and every day medical practice utilize many options the church considers immoral and unacceptable. Many Catholic doctors will not prescribe birth control. Business owners too at some pharmacies will not sell birth control. Some Catholics don't even consider careers in medicine or science due to the huge ethical conflicts the work would cause.

It is also difficult to be a Catholic family. Many families wish they could follow the mandate of the Catholic Church to forego birth control and thus have a large family. However, in today's world it is very expensive to raise children; the days of families with 7, 10, or more kids are long gone on the most part. Families must use birth control to ensure they will be able to financially afford to raise the children they already have.

The New Vatican Report Condemns Birth Control and Science-Assisted Reproduction - Yahoo Voices - voices.yahoo.com

 

[Vox]

You are truly devoid of any facts, aren't you. You have the nerve calling people liars when you are the one that lies, every time you open your mouth.

&#9632;
&#9632;
Among all women who have had sex, 99% have ever used a contraceptive method other than natural family planning.This figure is virtually the same, 98%, among sexually experienced Catholic women.[
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/Religion-and-Contraceptive-Use.pdf

nothing form motherjones, only guttmacher?

I am disappointed. motherjones would say 104%

I'm not surprised that you don't have rebuttal. Whose the liar now?

you provided nothing deserving rebuttal.


any more lies to prove?

next.

 

[Vox]

As usual, you base your comments on your own personal experience, and you are usually wrong.

And, you are wrong on this one too. Since you have a computer, it's amazing that you don't make use of it to keep you from appearing so uninformed. Share this link with your uniformed cohort, she also seems to be lacking in common knowledge.


In 1968, Pope Paul VI issued his landmark encyclical letter Humanae Vitae (Latin, "Human Life"), which reemphasized the Church’s constant teaching that it is always intrinsically wrong to use contraception to prevent new human beings from coming into existence.

Contraception is "any action which, either in anticipation of the conjugal act [sexual intercourse], or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" (Humanae Vitae 14). This includes sterilization, condoms and other barrier methods, spermicides, coitus interruptus (withdrawal method), the Pill, and all other such methods.


Birth Control | Catholic Answers

Unlike government, the Church has exactly no power to coerce anyone. Do you understand what free means in a political context?

Except that the Catholic Church considers it a sin, and Catholic women who are religious are made to feel that they are sinning if they take contraceptives. That 98% of the Catholic women take contraceptives does not negate the fact that the church is still against it.

So, what is your point?

stop lying.

you have no proof on 98%

 

[dblack]

Except that the Catholic Church considers it a sin, and Catholic women who are religious are made to feel that they are sinning if they take contraceptives. That 98% of the Catholic women take contraceptives does not negate the fact that the church is still against it.

So, what is your point?

Just that kg's point holds. Catholic women are free to use birth control.

Anything that has to be done in secret or makes a person feel like they are violating their faith is not "freedom." If that was the case, the Catholic Church wouldn't be making such a big deal out of it, since they don't have to pay for it.
If you want to consider that as "freedom," you are as uninformed as kg.

I'm sorry. If you don't understand the difference between coercion an religious prohibition, then we simply have fundamentally different conceptions of "freedom". In our country, religious taboos don't carry the weight of law.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Unlike government, the Church has exactly no power to coerce anyone. Do you understand what free means in a political context?

Except that the Catholic Church considers it a sin, and Catholic women who are religious are made to feel that they are sinning if they take contraceptives. That 98% of the Catholic women take contraceptives does not negate the fact that the church is still against it.

So, what is your point?

stop lying.

you have no proof on 98%

No, you don't. The claim that 98 percent of Catholic women use contraception: a media foul - The Washington Post

The %, if you read the reports on the survey and the documentation, places the figure between 89% and 98%.

 

[Norman]

Just that kg's point holds. Catholic women are free to use birth control.

Anything that has to be done in secret or makes a person feel like they are violating their faith is not "freedom." If that was the case, the Catholic Church wouldn't be making such a big deal out of it, since they don't have to pay for it.
If you want to consider that as "freedom," you are as uninformed as kg.

I'm sorry. If you don't understand the difference between coercion an religious prohibition, then we simply have fundamentally different conceptions of "freedom". In our country, religious taboos don't carry the weight of law.

Freedom means free contraception!

(that by the way costs you way more in taxes than if it wasn't free).

Anyway I agree that the church should not have any special rights here, rather everyone should be freed of this madness where insurance is used to provide for everyday stuff that everyone can afford (if they can't, they can't afford the insurance either - maybe get a job instead of get sc***ed everyday?).

 

[Vox]

Except that the Catholic Church considers it a sin, and Catholic women who are religious are made to feel that they are sinning if they take contraceptives. That 98% of the Catholic women take contraceptives does not negate the fact that the church is still against it.

So, what is your point?

stop lying.

you have no proof on 98%

No, you don't. The claim that 98 percent of Catholic women use contraception: a media foul - The Washington Post

The %, if you read the reports on the survey and the documentation, places the figure between 89% and 98%.

did you actually read the article?

it makes laugh at guttmacher and for good reason:

In other words, a woman may have sex only once, or she may have had a partner who only used a condom once, and then she would be placed in the 98 percent category. Jones said the correct way to describe the results of the research is this:

&#8220;Data shows that 98 percent of sexually experienced women of child-bearing age and who identify themselves as Catholic have used a method of contraception other than natural family planning at some point in their lives.&#8221;

As she pointed out, &#8220;In social science circles, sexually active means you had sex recently. Sexually experienced means you&#8217;ve had sex at least once.&#8221; The full NSFG survey (table 5) shows that 86.8 percent of women ages 15-44 have had vaginal intercourse.

if a statistic sounds too good to be true, be wary. A spokesman for Pelosi said she was saying that 98 percent of Catholic women have used birth control at some point in their lives &#8212; because that is how the media characterized it.

But, judging from the examples above, the media has gotten it wrong. The journalistic shorthand has been that &#8220;98 percent of American Catholic women have used contraception in their lifetimes.&#8221; But that is incorrect, according to the research.

&#8220;The shorthand is not what our statistic shows since we only looked at women aged 15-44 who have ever had sex,&#8221; Jones said.

The Pinocchio Test -Two Pinocchios

Jake - it would be highly advisable to read your own link - it proves what I was saying all along - 98% is a made up figure and the whole guttmacher "study" is a LIE

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Yeah sure, from one whose party tries to deny that Thomas Jefferson was for "Separation of Church and State" and whose party tries to make laws based on religion. You're in denial or just naive.

Another idiot that never reads.

I am not a member of either party. Not the Democratic Party, which believes that the Bible mandates social justice, or the Republican Party, which believes that the America is a Christian nation by direct decree of God. I don't join political parties because using religion to justify politics is disgusting, even if you use it for things I happen to think are good. Perhaps you should actually deal with the facts on the ground, which is that politicizing religion makes people miserable. Would you like examples from history?

You have no idea what I know about Scripture, how long I've studied and how long I've been a Christian, but as usual, you make your broad brush statements. You may have studied scripture but you sure don't apply it when you demean people with your comments on a regular basis.

I know that anyone that is stupid enough to argue that the teachings of Jesus mandate a political position don't know enough about theology to even start a discussion about it.

What, exactly, is demeaning about speaking harshly? If demeaning people is so bad can you explain why Jesus did it?

Feel free to get offended because I destroyed your position on Scripture without actually using it.

Sure you can, but only when you spin it to say what you want it to say, like others here, who claim to be Christian, do.

No, I can do it because that is how you learn to think. You study everything, examine the evidence in support, and against it, and reach a conclusion based on the evidence. I have no need to twist Scripture to use it to argue anything, I just have to lay it out.

I'm not free because of the government, nor am I free because of my religion, I'm free because Jesus made me free. And, unlike you, I don't worry about the government or anyone taking away my freedom, because when you know the Truth, the Truth will set you free, and you are free indeed.....try it.

Damn right you aren't free because of the government, and I will not let you, or anyone else, use the government to make other people do what you think is right. That is an abomination before God, and a sin.

 

[paperview]

stop lying.

you have no proof on 98%

No, you don't. The claim that 98 percent of Catholic women use contraception: a media foul - The Washington Post

The %, if you read the reports on the survey and the documentation, places the figure between 89% and 98%.

did you actually read the article?

it makes laugh at guttmacher and for good reason:

In other words, a woman may have sex only once, or she may have had a partner who only used a condom once, and then she would be placed in the 98 percent category. Jones said the correct way to describe the results of the research is this:

&#8220;Data shows that 98 percent of sexually experienced women of child-bearing age and who identify themselves as Catholic have used a method of contraception other than natural family planning at some point in their lives.&#8221;

As she pointed out, &#8220;In social science circles, sexually active means you had sex recently. Sexually experienced means you&#8217;ve had sex at least once.&#8221; The full NSFG survey (table 5) shows that 86.8 percent of women ages 15-44 have had vaginal intercourse.

if a statistic sounds too good to be true, be wary. A spokesman for Pelosi said she was saying that 98 percent of Catholic women have used birth control at some point in their lives &#8212; because that is how the media characterized it.

But, judging from the examples above, the media has gotten it wrong. The journalistic shorthand has been that &#8220;98 percent of American Catholic women have used contraception in their lifetimes.&#8221; But that is incorrect, according to the research.

&#8220;The shorthand is not what our statistic shows since we only looked at women aged 15-44 who have ever had sex,&#8221; Jones said.

The Pinocchio Test -Two Pinocchios

Jake - it would be highly advisable to read your own link - it proves what I was saying all along - 98% is a made up figure and the whole guttmacher "study" is a LIE

Hey noodlehead, you should take your own advice. The two Pinocchio's are to the media.

You went for the shorthand scribble and missed the longhand.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

As usual, you base your comments on your own personal experience, and you are usually wrong.

And, you are wrong on this one too. Since you have a computer, it's amazing that you don't make use of it to keep you from appearing so uninformed. Share this link with your uniformed cohort, she also seems to be lacking in common knowledge.


In 1968, Pope Paul VI issued his landmark encyclical letter Humanae Vitae (Latin, "Human Life"), which reemphasized the Church’s constant teaching that it is always intrinsically wrong to use contraception to prevent new human beings from coming into existence.

Contraception is "any action which, either in anticipation of the conjugal act [sexual intercourse], or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" (Humanae Vitae 14). This includes sterilization, condoms and other barrier methods, spermicides, coitus interruptus (withdrawal method), the Pill, and all other such methods.


Birth Control | Catholic Answers

Unlike government, the Church has exactly no power to coerce anyone. Do you understand what free means in a political context?

Except that the Catholic Church considers it a sin, and Catholic women who are religious are made to feel that they are sinning if they take contraceptives. That 98% of the Catholic women take contraceptives does not negate the fact that the church is still against it.

So, what is your point?

So the fuck what? Do you think that using the government to impose your beliefs on others makes you better than the Church? It doesn't, it actually makes you worse.

 

[Vox]

No, you don't. The claim that 98 percent of Catholic women use contraception: a media foul - The Washington Post

The %, if you read the reports on the survey and the documentation, places the figure between 89% and 98%.

did you actually read the article?

it makes laugh at guttmacher and for good reason:

In other words, a woman may have sex only once, or she may have had a partner who only used a condom once, and then she would be placed in the 98 percent category. Jones said the correct way to describe the results of the research is this:

“Data shows that 98 percent of sexually experienced women of child-bearing age and who identify themselves as Catholic have used a method of contraception other than natural family planning at some point in their lives.”

As she pointed out, “In social science circles, sexually active means you had sex recently. Sexually experienced means you’ve had sex at least once.” The full NSFG survey (table 5) shows that 86.8 percent of women ages 15-44 have had vaginal intercourse.

if a statistic sounds too good to be true, be wary. A spokesman for Pelosi said she was saying that 98 percent of Catholic women have used birth control at some point in their lives — because that is how the media characterized it.

But, judging from the examples above, the media has gotten it wrong. The journalistic shorthand has been that “98 percent of American Catholic women have used contraception in their lifetimes.” But that is incorrect, according to the research.

“The shorthand is not what our statistic shows since we only looked at women aged 15-44 who have ever had sex,” Jones said.

The Pinocchio Test -Two Pinocchios

Jake - it would be highly advisable to read your own link - it proves what I was saying all along - 98% is a made up figure and the whole guttmacher "study" is a LIE

Hey noodlehead, you should take your own advice. The two Pinocchio's are to the media.

You went for the shorthand scribble and missed the longhand.

exactly. because the media reported the idiocy of 98% of Catholic women use the contraceptive method - which is a LIE