Bible vs Qur'an, authenticity

[irosie91]

Please read the OP.

I read it. The claim is that muhummad RECITED his stuff to a bunch of people------who were SO ILLITERATE that not one of them wrote
his stuff out. The fact is that Jesus spoke to lots of very LITERATE
PEOPLE. The chances that the words of Jesus were preserved INTACT is far more likely

ahmad giggled. I had trouble NOT GIGGLING when I visited
a mosque (I also had trouble not vomiting)

A mosque is known as the house of God. When you are inside a mosque you are inside God's house, you came to visit Him (among others, also to praise Him, to worship Him, to respond to His invitation, to please Him and to seek His love). But also a guest to Him, because it is His house. In Islam, one takes good care of his guests -very important-, next time you enter a mosque, try to see God's great superb care to you at that time, and to all those around you. It is an extraordinary experience.

it was very extraordinary-------I had to take deep breaths to
resist the urge to VOMIT during the 'khutbah jumaat'.
The imam was a visiting GENIUS (I was so told by my hosts)
He entertained the people by screaming that Christians are
PERVERSE LIARS and THE ENEMEEEES OF ISLAAAAM.
He was celebrating the holiday GOOD FRIDAY by spitting hatred
into the minds of a whole bunch of young boys.

So you could sense he was lying, maybe you only in the whole mosque (there are groups of Muslims like that). Did it change anything to the beauty of the Mosque ? No. There is Islam, and there are Muslims. Sometimes, they have not much to do with each other.

you did not respond to that which I wrote. The DAY I visited a mosque----by invitation of one of my co-workers-----that DAY was
GOOD FRIDAY which is a Christian holiday-----very important to Christians and SO IMPORTANT that it is something of a national
holiday------and public schools are closed The Imam was, according to my host ----VERY SPECIAL ----a kind of Islamic scholar and visiting.
His "sermon" was all about GOOD FRIDAY . He described it as
and IDIOTIC LIE (by Christians) and he entertained his audience by
SHRIEKING about Christians as "PERVERSE LIARS" and
"ENEMEEEEES OF ISLAAAAAM" --------IT WAS DISGUSTING.
Not one person objected ----not a murmur. There were lots of young
boys in the room----because it was a school holiday, That pig should
have been shot. My host could not understand my objection----since the pig had not even mentioned jews

 

[alang1216]

Isn't obvious that the 3 great religions have the truth in their midst ?

Isn't it obvious that Islam came from God, to humans ? Islam="everything except GOD is vain". (meaning love God deeply, in a way that you can not love anyone or anything else).

Not to me. There is no more evidence for Allah than there is for Zeus or any other God. Sorry but you can't point to a book and claim that it is truth just because the book says it is truth. Circular reasoning.

 

[Ahmad]

I read it. The claim is that muhummad RECITED his stuff to a bunch of people------who were SO ILLITERATE that not one of them wrote
his stuff out. The fact is that Jesus spoke to lots of very LITERATE
PEOPLE. The chances that the words of Jesus were preserved INTACT is far more likely

ahmad giggled. I had trouble NOT GIGGLING when I visited
a mosque (I also had trouble not vomiting)

A mosque is known as the house of God. When you are inside a mosque you are inside God's house, you came to visit Him (among others, also to praise Him, to worship Him, to respond to His invitation, to please Him and to seek His love). But also a guest to Him, because it is His house. In Islam, one takes good care of his guests -very important-, next time you enter a mosque, try to see God's great superb care to you at that time, and to all those around you. It is an extraordinary experience.

it was very extraordinary-------I had to take deep breaths to
resist the urge to VOMIT during the 'khutbah jumaat'.
The imam was a visiting GENIUS (I was so told by my hosts)
He entertained the people by screaming that Christians are
PERVERSE LIARS and THE ENEMEEEES OF ISLAAAAM.
He was celebrating the holiday GOOD FRIDAY by spitting hatred
into the minds of a whole bunch of young boys.

So you could sense he was lying, maybe you only in the whole mosque (there are groups of Muslims like that). Did it change anything to the beauty of the Mosque ? No. There is Islam, and there are Muslims. Sometimes, they have not much to do with each other.

you did not respond to that which I wrote. The DAY I visited a mosque----by invitation of one of my co-workers-----that DAY was
GOOD FRIDAY which is a Christian holiday-----very important to Christians and SO IMPORTANT that it is something of a national
holiday------and public schools are closed The Imam was, according to my host ----VERY SPECIAL ----a kind of Islamic scholar and visiting.
His "sermon" was all about GOOD FRIDAY . He described it as
and IDIOTIC LIE (by Christians) and he entertained his audience by
SHRIEKING about Christians as "PERVERSE LIARS" and
"ENEMEEEEES OF ISLAAAAAM" --------IT WAS DISGUSTING.
Not one person objected ----not a murmur. There were lots of young
boys in the room----because it was a school holiday, That pig should
have been shot. My host could not understand my objection----since the pig had not even mentioned jews

First, no one talks during Friday Khutba. It is forbidden. So any objection would have to be done later, in some other way. Also, there are some people you don't talk to like just anyone; even when you are insulted. For example when a police officer or an army official, a great dignitary insults someone; that someone does not reply to him in his face (at least in Muslim culture). Everyone knows why that is like that.

 

[Ahmad]

My question is, what evidence is there that the Bible's words, as known today are the actual words of the Prophet Jesus ? Jesus (peace be upon him) lived 2000 years ago. How would one expect, in all pure common sense, that his words are preserved up to this day ? Do you not think that these words are changed, modified, altered, arranged, and put up conveniently, voluntarily, and both with and without that very intent ?

Why do you think the oral history that became the Bible is any less accurate than the oral history that became the Quran?

Please read the OP.

I did. Please answer the question.

Again, what I am considering illegitimate is the Bible's authenticity as of today 2000 years after Jesus. How would one expect that these are in truth the actual words spoken by Prophet Jesus ? It's been 2000 years. If you can prove that Prophet Jesus did say these things, then we can believe in it. But you can not: 2000 years is not 2 minutes. You know religion is power. It does not stay untouched, unchanged by ill-intentioned men, because religion is power. For instance, as I told someone, if you don't lock away the Mueller report so that no one can touch it, I guarantee you that before sunday it will become a report on March Madness or on the beaches of the Bahamas, or something else.

So no, the Bible, you have to prove that it is really spoken by Jesus (peace on him) but you can not.

Again, the Qur'an, it was ordered that people commit it to memory from the beginning. And from generation to generation people kept committing it to memory. And it even goes on today. I myself have committed some of it to my memory. Little children 8 or 9 have committed all of it to their memories, that's like ordinary; all over the world. This is how it was made sure that the Qur'an be never touched, changed, or altered.

 

[Ahmad]

Hello.

This was prompted to me by people quoting me Bible verses, in their attempt to convince me of some elements. My question is, what evidence is there that the Bible's words, as known today are the actual words of the Prophet Jesus ? Jesus (peace be upon him) lived 2000 years ago. How would one expect, in all pure common sense, that his words are preserved up to this day ? Do you not think that these words are changed, modified, altered, arranged, and put up conveniently, voluntarily, and both with and without that very intent ?

Muhammad (peace be upon him) was given a book by God, The Qur'an. In it, God talks to him. It is the word of God. That was about 1500 years ago. However, the Qur'an was memorized from the beginning, as an obligation to the Muslim community, and it was done as it had to be. From generations to generations, it was memorized, all over the Muslim world, until today, and it continues. This is how we know the Qur'an is authentic, the very same that it was 1500 years ago.

1500 years ago, when Muhammad recited this Qur'an to people, everyone was amazed by such a speech, such words, such extraordinary and beautiful words of light. It is the same today, when someone reads a verse of the Qur'an, or many verses, or a Chapter, or many Chapters; he is overwhelmed by such extraodinary, magnificent and amazing words. This is because it is the word of God Almighty.

"So all the praises and thanks be to God, the Lord of the heavens and the Lord of the earth, and the Lord of the Alamin (mankind, jinn and all that exists). And His (Alone) is the Majesty in the heavens and the earth, and He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise." (45:36-37)

"But those who believe and do righteous good deeds, and believe in that which is sent down to Muhammad - for it is the truth from their Lord - He will expiate from them their sins, and will make good their state." (47:1)

View attachment 252607

Historical artifacts are found that prove the Bible all the time.

Mohammed was a goat-humping pedo marauder.

How a historical artifact can prove a whole book ? I don't know what you talk about, but if a fossil with special shape is found - and there happens to be a verse that said "God created fossils of special shape - it still doesn't prove that the verse is true and holy. Maybe someone heard it from Prophet Jesus (that they are fossils of special shape) and then he decided to put it in that verse, so that people say later, when they discover special shapes fossils, that the Bible is actually the true discourse of Prophet Jesus.

 

[Ahmad]

Isn't obvious that the 3 great religions have the truth in their midst ?

Isn't it obvious that Islam came from God, to humans ? Islam="everything except GOD is vain". (meaning love God deeply, in a way that you can not love anyone or anything else).

Not to me. There is no more evidence for Allah than there is for Zeus or any other God. Sorry but you can't point to a book and claim that it is truth just because the book says it is truth. Circular reasoning.

I asked you, if it is not obvious. Don't switch the topic. Take a step back, look from up and at a distance, and you will sense looking at the world and its religions, that the truth must lie somewhere between the 3 great monotheistic religions, simply. Then the topic of this thread narrows it down to Islam.

 

[Ahmad]

Curiously, the Koran is unique among religious texts. All the other religions, and their texts, basically call on people to live their lives well, and show compassion and love towards their neighbors. Buddhist, Hindu, Sikh, Christians, and the rest all talk the same way. Only Islam teaches that it is good to slaughter another group. The Bible says that in the end days, people who have sinned will be punished by God. Buddhist’s believe that reincarnation will see you advance if you have lived your life well, and degraded if you have lived it poorly.

Yet, it is Islam that we are told is the Religion of Peace. Where women are equated to dogs, and Jews are equated to swine. It is curious that this religion of Peace advises and encourages the true believers to lie.

Taqiyya: Deception and Lying in Islam

While Christians are advised that lies are a sin. Lies are in violation of the Ten Commandments, the holiest commandments of all. Yet Islam encourages and allows people to lie, especially to the Infidels. It is not only permissible, but encouraged.

So while other Religious Beliefs call on people to be better, more honorable, and more ethical, Islam calls on the believers to be less honorable. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the beauty of the faith. Because I would find it hard to believe that God would preach Hatred two thousand years after sacrificing his own Son to forgive the Original Sin.

Now, I am the first to admit and acknowledge that Christians through History have done some pretty terrible things. Yet those things were in violation of the teachings, not in compliance. St. Augustine is famed and his beliefs and philosophies regarding the just use of force are the foundation of our World Societies beliefs and standards for a Just War.

I can not go back and change the History of Christianity to become more what I believe it should be. I can acknowledge those mistakes, and do everything possible to insure they are not repeated. But in acknowledging those mistakes, I in no way claim that Islam is a superior belief system. Because frankly, it isn’t. It is anthitical to the common beliefs in every other Religous system in the world. It is heretical to the basic premises of community and compassion. I am proud to say I am an Infidel by the standards of the Koran, and the Beleivers. I am thrilled to say that I do not follow in the footsteps of a child rapist. I may have faced some tough points in my life, questions of faith, and difficulties in many forms. Yet never has the Religion of Peace been beautiful. It is instead, an abomination in my beliefs, and I suspect more closely associated with a Cult, than a true Religous system.

What are you talking about ? The Qur'an calls to love of God and to seeking God's love:


"Verily, those who believe [in the Oneness of God and in His Messenger (Muhammad)] and work deeds of righteousness, the Most Gracious (Allah)
will bestow love." (19:96)

"follow the path of those who turn to Me in love" (31:15)

Muhammad (peace be upon him) had many wives, not just one. He had 11 wives and two servants (sexual relations with one's female servants were not considered adultery). At some point, only one of his wives was never married before. That is the one you call a child. She was his best friend's daughter. There is a teaching in it. Ideally -I insist, ideally, not commonly, not ordinarily, not ever- boys and girls must be married early to each other in order to bring strength and harmony to the community. When Muhammad first married, he was 25, and he married a lady that was 15 years older than him (she was 40, and it is her who proposed to him); and he never married another woman as long as she was alive. So you are talking lies and hate. That's all. Love is blind, hate also.

You know that David was a warrior as well as Solomon, and other biblical prophets, and other righteous figures (Alexander, among others) and it does not bother you. You know that Moses taught an eye for an eye, (that's how killers are killed, and thieves get their hands cut and on and on) but it does not bother you. The US sent 2 nuclear bombs on Japan, when has it ever been considered evil by anyone ? If anything, American ways ended up being criticized, that's all, if anything; but no one ever said The US administration and the American constitution are evil. Again, love is blind, but hate also.

Quran
Quran (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.
Quran (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves" against danger, meaning that there are times when a Muslim may appear friendly to non-Muslims, even though they should not feel friendly.

Quran (9:3) - "...Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters..." The dissolution of oaths is with pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway. (The next verse refers only to those who have a personal agreement with Muhammad as individuals - see Ibn Kathir vol 4, p 49)

Quran (66:2) - "Allah has already ordained for you the dissolution of your oaths..."

Quran (40:28) - A man is introduced as a believer, but one who had to "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.

Quran (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts"

Quran (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers." The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which means 'cunning,' 'guile' and 'deceit'. If Allah is supremely deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21)

Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.

Hadith and Sira
Sahih Bukhari (52:269) - "The Prophet said, 'War is deceit.'" The context of this is thought to be the murder of Usayr ibn Zarim and his thirty unarmed companions by Muhammad's men after they were "guaranteed" safe passage (see Additional Notes below).

Sahih Bukhari (49:857) - "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar." Lying is permitted when the end justifies the means.

Sahih Bukhari (84:64-65) - Speaking from a position of power at the time, Ali confirms that lying is permitted in order to deceive an "enemy." The Quran defines the 'enemy' as "disbelievers" (4:101).

Sahih Muslim (32:6303) - "...he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them)."

Sahih Bukhari (50:369) - Recounts the murder of a poet, Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, at Muhammad's insistence. The men who volunteered for the assassination used dishonesty to gain Ka'b's trust, pretending that they had turned against Muhammad. This drew the victim out of his fortress, whereupon he was brutally slaughtered.

From Islamic Law:

Reliance of the Traveler (p. 746 - 8.2) - "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible (N:i.e. when the purpose of lying is to circumvent someone who is preventing one from doing something permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory... it is religiously precautionary in all cases to employ words that give a misleading impression... (See the Permissible Lying section on the Sharia page for more)

"One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie."
Notes
The Hadith makes it clear that Muslims are allowed to lie to unbelievers in order to defeat them or protect themselves. There are several forms:

Taqiyya - Saying something that isn't true as it relates to the Muslim identity. This is a Shiite term: the Sunni counterpart is Muda'rat.

Kitman - Lying by omission. An example would be when Muslim apologists quote only a fragment of verse 5:32 (that if anyone kills "it shall be as if he had killed all mankind") while neglecting to mention that the rest of the verse (and the next) mandate murder in undefined cases of "corruption" and "mischief."

Tawriya - Intentionally creating a false impression.

Muruna - 'Blending in' by setting aside some practices of Islam or Sharia in order to advance others.

Though not called taqiyya by name, Muhammad clearly used deception when he signed a 10-year treaty with the Meccans (known as Hudaibiya) which allowed him access to their city while he secretly prepared his own forces for a takeover. The unsuspecting residents were conquered in easy fashion after he broke the treaty two years later. Some of the people in the city who had trusted him at his word were executed.

Another example of lying is when Muhammad used deception to trick his personal enemies into letting down their guard and exposing themselves to slaughter by pretending to seek peace. This happened in the case of Ka'b bin al-Ashraf (as previously noted) and later against Usayr ibn Zarim, a surviving leader of the Banu Nadir tribe, which had been evicted from their home in Medina by the Muslims.

At the time, Usayr ibn Zarim was attempting to gather an armed force against the Muslims from among a tribe allied with the Quraish (against which Muhammad had already declared war). Muhammad's "emissaries" went to ibn Zarim and persuaded him to leave his safe haven on the pretext of meeting with the prophet of Islam in Medina to discuss peace. Once vulnerable, the leader and his thirty companions were massacred by the Muslims with ease, probably because they were unarmed - having been given a guarantee of safe passage (Ibn Ishaq 981, Ibn Kathir v.4 p.300).

Such was the reputation of early Muslims for lying and killing that even those who "accepted Islam" did not feel entirely safe. Consider the fate of the Jadhima. When Muslim "missionaries" approached their tribe, one of the members insisted that they would be slaughtered even though they had already "converted" to Islam (to avoid just such a demise). However, the others insisted that they could trust the Muslim leader's promise that they would not be harmed if they simply offered no resistance. (After convincing the skeptic to lay down his arms, the unarmed men of the tribe were tied up and beheaded by the missionaries - Ibn Ishaq 834 & 837).

Today's apologists often rationalize Muhammad's murder of his critics at Medina by falsely claiming that they broke a treaty with their actions. Yet, these same apologists place little value on treaties broken by Muslims. From Muhammad to Saddam Hussein, promises made to non-Muslim are distinctly non-binding in the Muslim mindset.

Leaders in the Arab world sometimes say one thing to English-speaking audiences and then something entirely different to their own people in Arabic. Palestinian leaders routinely tell Westerners about their desire for peace with Israel, even as they whip Palestinians into a hateful and violent frenzy against Jews. Yassir Arafat even referenced "Hudaibiya" - an admission to conning guillible non-Muslims.

The 9/11 hijackers practiced deception by going into bars and drinking alcohol, thus throwing off potential suspicion that they were fundamentalists plotting jihad. This effort worked so well that John Walsh, the host of a popular American television show, claimed well after the fact that their bar trips were evidence of 'hypocrisy.'

The transmission from Flight 93 records the hijackers telling their doomed passengers that there is "a bomb on board" but that everyone will "be safe" as long as "their demands are met." Obviously none of this was true, but these men, who were so intensely devoted to Islam that they were willing to "slay and be slain for the cause of Allah" (as the Quran puts it) saw nothing wrong with employing taqiyya to facilitate their mission of mass murder.

The Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) insists that it "has not now or ever been involved with the Muslim Brotherhood, or supported any covert, illegal, or terrorist activity or organization." In fact, it was created by the Muslim Brotherhood and has bankrolled Hamas. At least nine founders or board members of ISNA have been accused by prosecutors of supporting terrorism.

The notorious Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) is so well known for shamelessly lying about its ties to terror and extremism that books have been written on the subject. They take seriously the part of Sharia that says "it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory". The goal being the ascendency of Islam (and Sharia itself) on the American landscape.

In 2007, CAIR's Ibrahim Hooper published an op-ed with a fabricated story about Muhammad that portrayed him as a forgiving man:There was a lady who threw garbage in the path of the prophet on a daily basis. One day, she didn‘t do it. The prophet went to inquire about her health, because he thought she might be sick. This lady ended up converting to Islam. So, that‘s how you respond to people who attack you, with forgiveness and with kindness.Hooper is not ignorant, of course, and knew what he was doing. After getting caught, he changed the wording slightly to say that it is a tradition "Muslims are taught," but he continues to promote the story without qualifying it as untrue - thus causing others to unwittingly repeat a lie.

Prior to engineering several deadly terror plots, such as the Fort Hood massacre and the attempt to blow up a Detroit-bound airliner, American cleric Anwar al-Awlaki was regularly sought out by NPR, PBS and even government leaders to expound on the peaceful nature of Islam.

In 2013, a scholar at the prestigious al-Azhar university decreed that Muslims may wear the cross in order to deceive Christians into thinking they are friendly. He cited 3:28 which says not to be friends with non-Muslims unless it is a way of "guarding" yourself against them.

"Hiding faith" can mean deceiving others about Islam in order to make it appear more attractive. For example, a prominent Muslim activist in the United States, Linda Sarsour, bills herself as a "progressive" and says that gays, women and religious minorities need not worry about Sharia being imposed. She even says that money is lent free of charge under Islamic law (more about that here).

The Quran says in several places that Allah is the best at deceiving people.

There are a few early Quran verses that seem to encourage truthfulness: 70:32-33, and it bears mentioning that many Muslims are no less honest than anyone else. But, when lying is addressed in the Quran, it is nearly always in reference to the "lies against Allah" - meaning the Jews and Christians who rejected Muhammad's claim to being a prophet.

Still, the circumstances by which Muhammad allowed a believer to lie to a non-spouse are limited to those that either advance the cause of Islam or enable a Muslim to avoid harm to his well-being (and presumably that of other Muslims as well). Although this should be kept very much in mind when dealing with matters of global security, such as Iran's nuclear intentions, it is not grounds for assuming that the Muslim one might personally encounter on the street or in the workplace is any less honest than anyone else.

This is like they say, statistics don't lie, but liars use statistics. You can use statistics to claim whatever you wish. Same thing with religion. You can use holy texts to claim about them whatever you wish, and I mean absolutely whatever. If you want to claim Islam orders people to vote republican, you can use the Qur'anic text to prove that. If you want to claim Islam orders people to vote democrat, you can use the Qur'anic text to do that: because they are holy texts (both the Qur'an and the Hadiths which are the sayings of Muhammad). Statistics don't lie, but liars use statistics. The Qur'an does not kill, but killers use the Qur'an. There's no vain arguing to be held here.

 

[alang1216]

I asked you, if it is not obvious. Don't switch the topic. Take a step back, look from up and at a distance, and you will sense looking at the world and its religions, that the truth must lie somewhere between the 3 great monotheistic religions, simply. Then the topic of this thread narrows it down to Islam.

I believe the truth does not lie somewhere between the 3 great monotheistic religions but that none are correct. If there is only one God why allow so many different religions? Why did God wait so long to reveal the Quran? How many millions lived and died in ignorance? Same for Christianity and every other religion.

When I was 12 it occurred to me that since all religions were so different, at best only one could be true and the majority of people on Earth were wrong about God. It just seemed more likely that no religion was true and I've never had cause to change my opinion.

 

[alang1216]

My question is, what evidence is there that the Bible's words, as known today are the actual words of the Prophet Jesus ? Jesus (peace be upon him) lived 2000 years ago. How would one expect, in all pure common sense, that his words are preserved up to this day ? Do you not think that these words are changed, modified, altered, arranged, and put up conveniently, voluntarily, and both with and without that very intent ?

Why do you think the oral history that became the Bible is any less accurate than the oral history that became the Quran?

Please read the OP.

I did. Please answer the question.

Again, what I am considering illegitimate is the Bible's authenticity as of today 2000 years after Jesus. How would one expect that these are in truth the actual words spoken by Prophet Jesus ? It's been 2000 years. If you can prove that Prophet Jesus did say these things, then we can believe in it. But you can not: 2000 years is not 2 minutes. You know religion is power. It does not stay untouched, unchanged by ill-intentioned men, because religion is power. For instance, as I told someone, if you don't lock away the Mueller report so that no one can touch it, I guarantee you that before sunday it will become a report on March Madness or on the beaches of the Bahamas, or something else.

So no, the Bible, you have to prove that it is really spoken by Jesus (peace on him) but you can not.

Again, the Qur'an, it was ordered that people commit it to memory from the beginning. And from generation to generation people kept committing it to memory. And it even goes on today. I myself have committed some of it to my memory. Little children 8 or 9 have committed all of it to their memories, that's like ordinary; all over the world. This is how it was made sure that the Qur'an be never touched, changed, or altered.

The Bible was written down a few decades after Jesus died so it is no different in that regard from the Quran. You ask for proof of what Jesus spoke but you can't offer proof of what Mohammad spoke.

 

[irosie91]

ahmad giggled. I had trouble NOT GIGGLING when I visited
a mosque (I also had trouble not vomiting)

A mosque is known as the house of God. When you are inside a mosque you are inside God's house, you came to visit Him (among others, also to praise Him, to worship Him, to respond to His invitation, to please Him and to seek His love). But also a guest to Him, because it is His house. In Islam, one takes good care of his guests -very important-, next time you enter a mosque, try to see God's great superb care to you at that time, and to all those around you. It is an extraordinary experience.

it was very extraordinary-------I had to take deep breaths to
resist the urge to VOMIT during the 'khutbah jumaat'.
The imam was a visiting GENIUS (I was so told by my hosts)
He entertained the people by screaming that Christians are
PERVERSE LIARS and THE ENEMEEEES OF ISLAAAAM.
He was celebrating the holiday GOOD FRIDAY by spitting hatred
into the minds of a whole bunch of young boys.

So you could sense he was lying, maybe you only in the whole mosque (there are groups of Muslims like that). Did it change anything to the beauty of the Mosque ? No. There is Islam, and there are Muslims. Sometimes, they have not much to do with each other.

you did not respond to that which I wrote. The DAY I visited a mosque----by invitation of one of my co-workers-----that DAY was
GOOD FRIDAY which is a Christian holiday-----very important to Christians and SO IMPORTANT that it is something of a national
holiday------and public schools are closed The Imam was, according to my host ----VERY SPECIAL ----a kind of Islamic scholar and visiting.
His "sermon" was all about GOOD FRIDAY . He described it as
and IDIOTIC LIE (by Christians) and he entertained his audience by
SHRIEKING about Christians as "PERVERSE LIARS" and
"ENEMEEEEES OF ISLAAAAAM" --------IT WAS DISGUSTING.
Not one person objected ----not a murmur. There were lots of young
boys in the room----because it was a school holiday, That pig should
have been shot. My host could not understand my objection----since the pig had not even mentioned jews

First, no one talks during Friday Khutba. It is forbidden. So any objection would have to be done later, in some other way. Also, there are some people you don't talk to like just anyone; even when you are insulted. For example when a police officer or an army official, a great dignitary insults someone; that someone does not reply to him in his face (at least in Muslim culture). Everyone knows why that is like that.

oh----that explains LOTS------animals just get to fart out FILTH in the
presence of children--------and their parents just nod and smile. It explains why muslims yell their "god's name" whilst raping and/or
murdering babies---------it is a POLITE thing to do. In fact people do talk during the vulgar KHUTBAH JUMAAT feces flint-----they yell out
agreement. Even allah keeps quiet in the face of the STENCH

 

[Ahmad]

I asked you, if it is not obvious. Don't switch the topic. Take a step back, look from up and at a distance, and you will sense looking at the world and its religions, that the truth must lie somewhere between the 3 great monotheistic religions, simply. Then the topic of this thread narrows it down to Islam.

I believe the truth does not lie somewhere between the 3 great monotheistic religions but that none are correct. If there is only one God why allow so many different religions? Why did God wait so long to reveal the Quran? How many millions lived and died in ignorance? Same for Christianity and every other religion.

When I was 12 it occurred to me that since all religions were so different, at best only one could be true and the majority of people on Earth were wrong about God. It just seemed more likely that no religion was true and I've never had cause to change my opinion.

Many religions because after a few hundreds of years people forget. So God sends another prophet. That is why Moses was sent after Abraham. And Jesus after Moses. And Muhammad after Jesus (peace be upon them all). But with Muhammad, peace be upon him, God declared there would be no more prophet. This is the last. So after Muhammad, there are no prophets. God does not send any more prophets, but He sends saints. Each century after Muhammad has its saints. These saints follow after Muhammad and emulate his way. Example of these saints known worldwide are Rumi (an America's favourite), Ibn Arabi, Saadi, Imam Ghazali, etc... Just google their names and see.

You are absolutely right, only one religion can ultimately be true. That's common sense and logic. How is that a problem ? How many hundreds of millions of American have there been of all time, and how many of them became presidents of the United States ? 45. How is that a problem ? You are being unfair and dishonest, that's all.

 

[Ahmad]

My question is, what evidence is there that the Bible's words, as known today are the actual words of the Prophet Jesus ? Jesus (peace be upon him) lived 2000 years ago. How would one expect, in all pure common sense, that his words are preserved up to this day ? Do you not think that these words are changed, modified, altered, arranged, and put up conveniently, voluntarily, and both with and without that very intent ?

Why do you think the oral history that became the Bible is any less accurate than the oral history that became the Quran?

Please read the OP.

I did. Please answer the question.

Again, what I am considering illegitimate is the Bible's authenticity as of today 2000 years after Jesus. How would one expect that these are in truth the actual words spoken by Prophet Jesus ? It's been 2000 years. If you can prove that Prophet Jesus did say these things, then we can believe in it. But you can not: 2000 years is not 2 minutes. You know religion is power. It does not stay untouched, unchanged by ill-intentioned men, because religion is power. For instance, as I told someone, if you don't lock away the Mueller report so that no one can touch it, I guarantee you that before sunday it will become a report on March Madness or on the beaches of the Bahamas, or something else.

So no, the Bible, you have to prove that it is really spoken by Jesus (peace on him) but you can not.

Again, the Qur'an, it was ordered that people commit it to memory from the beginning. And from generation to generation people kept committing it to memory. And it even goes on today. I myself have committed some of it to my memory. Little children 8 or 9 have committed all of it to their memories, that's like ordinary; all over the world. This is how it was made sure that the Qur'an be never touched, changed, or altered.

The Bible was written down a few decades after Jesus died so it is no different in that regard from the Quran. You ask for proof of what Jesus spoke but you can't offer proof of what Mohammad spoke.

Are you playing with me or something ? The Qur'an was not WRITTEN DOWN A FEW DECADES AFTER MUHAMMAD. The Qur'an was committed to memory when Muhammad was still alive. After him the next generation also committed it to memory. And the next generation did the same. Until they said: let's just write it down on paper. Yet even after they wrote it down on paper, it is still, to this very day committed to memory. I personally committed some of it to my memory. There are plenty of children 7,8,9, all over the world who have committed ALL OF IT to memory. This committing to memory, from generation to generation, century after century ensures no one touches the Qur'an, no one changes it, from the 7th century to today, and tomorrow, until the end of time.

 

[alang1216]

Many religions because after a few hundreds of years people forget. So God sends another prophet. That is why Moses was sent after Abraham. And Jesus after Moses. And Muhammad after Jesus (peace be upon them all). But with Muhammad, peace be upon him, God declared there would be no more prophet. This is the last. So after Muhammad, there are no prophets. God does not send any more prophets, but He sends saints. Each century after Muhammad has its saints. These saints follow after Muhammad and emulate his way. Example of these saints known worldwide are Rumi (an America's favourite), Ibn Arabi, Saadi, Imam Ghazali, etc... Just google their names and see.

You are absolutely right, only one religion can ultimately be true. That's common sense and logic. How is that a problem ? How many hundreds of millions of American have there been of all time, and how many of them became presidents of the United States ? 45. How is that a problem ? You are being unfair and dishonest, that's all.

So people can memorize the Quran but can't memorize the Bible? In the days when most people were illiterate, many made their living as story tellers. The Iliad is older than the NT yet it has come down to us reasonably intact.

 

[irosie91]

Many religions because after a few hundreds of years people forget. So God sends another prophet. That is why Moses was sent after Abraham. And Jesus after Moses. And Muhammad after Jesus (peace be upon them all). But with Muhammad, peace be upon him, God declared there would be no more prophet. This is the last. So after Muhammad, there are no prophets. God does not send any more prophets, but He sends saints. Each century after Muhammad has its saints. These saints follow after Muhammad and emulate his way. Example of these saints known worldwide are Rumi (an America's favourite), Ibn Arabi, Saadi, Imam Ghazali, etc... Just google their names and see.

You are absolutely right, only one religion can ultimately be true. That's common sense and logic. How is that a problem ? How many hundreds of millions of American have there been of all time, and how many of them became presidents of the United States ? 45. How is that a problem ? You are being unfair and dishonest, that's all.

So people can memorize the Quran but can't memorize the Bible? In the days when most people were illiterate, many made their living as story tellers. The Iliad is older than the NT yet it has come down to us reasonably intact.

I will explain what I have learned from muslims over the past approximately 50 years. It seems that they are taught, FROM
INFANCY, that there is something very special about the fact that
they memorize the Koran. Of course----that idea is utter BS.
People have been memorizing their scriptural literature for Millennia.
In fact, an early criticism of the PRINTING PRESS of Gutenberg, was
the fear that with a printing press, people would LOSE THE ABILITY
to memorize. The Koran is actually ---NOTHING MUCH to memorize.
It is done in "Arabic poetry" ---we all memorize little poems and limericks
as kids---------and it is really not all that long. Muslims seem FASCINATED by the fact that people memorized the Koran-----I got bad news for AHMAD-----my very own hubby came from very impoverished background-------but he has the Jewish scriptural writing memorized by
age six. Memorization is the "EDUCATION" of the very impoverished and ----BACKWARD people of the world ALL OVER THE WORLD----the Greeks and jews and Hindus etc did it LONG BEFORE THE RAPIST OF ARABIA was born

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Hello.

This was prompted to me by people quoting me Bible verses, in their attempt to convince me of some elements. My question is, what evidence is there that the Bible's words, as known today are the actual words of the Prophet Jesus ? Jesus (peace be upon him) lived 2000 years ago. How would one expect, in all pure common sense, that his words are preserved up to this day ? Do you not think that these words are changed, modified, altered, arranged, and put up conveniently, voluntarily, and both with and without that very intent ?

Muhammad (peace be upon him) was given a book by God, The Qur'an. In it, God talks to him. It is the word of God. That was about 1500 years ago. However, the Qur'an was memorized from the beginning, as an obligation to the Muslim community, and it was done as it had to be. From generations to generations, it was memorized, all over the Muslim world, until today, and it continues. This is how we know the Qur'an is authentic, the very same that it was 1500 years ago.

1500 years ago, when Muhammad recited this Qur'an to people, everyone was amazed by such a speech, such words, such extraordinary and beautiful words of light. It is the same today, when someone reads a verse of the Qur'an, or many verses, or a Chapter, or many Chapters; he is overwhelmed by such extraodinary, magnificent and amazing words. This is because it is the word of God Almighty.

"So all the praises and thanks be to God, the Lord of the heavens and the Lord of the earth, and the Lord of the Alamin (mankind, jinn and all that exists). And His (Alone) is the Majesty in the heavens and the earth, and He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise." (45:36-37)

"But those who believe and do righteous good deeds, and believe in that which is sent down to Muhammad - for it is the truth from their Lord - He will expiate from them their sins, and will make good their state." (47:1)

Both are equally inauthentic as there is no ‘god’ as perceived by theists.

Does that make sense ?

Isn't obvious that the 3 great religions have the truth in their midst ?

Isn't it obvious that Islam came from God, to humans ? Islam="everything except GOD is vain". (meaning love God deeply, in a way that you can not love anyone or anything else).

What’s obvious is that man created religion, then ‘gods,’ and then a single ‘god.’

During the last 10,000 years man refined religion into the organized and authoritarian institutions they are today.

The common mythology shared by the Abrahamic religions is proof of that, variations of the same monotheistic theme.

 

[Ahmad]

My question is, what evidence is there that the Bible's words, as known today are the actual words of the Prophet Jesus ? Jesus (peace be upon him) lived 2000 years ago. How would one expect, in all pure common sense, that his words are preserved up to this day ? Do you not think that these words are changed, modified, altered, arranged, and put up conveniently, voluntarily, and both with and without that very intent ?

Why do you think the oral history that became the Bible is any less accurate than the oral history that became the Quran?

Please read the OP.

I did. Please answer the question.

Again, what I am considering illegitimate is the Bible's authenticity as of today 2000 years after Jesus. How would one expect that these are in truth the actual words spoken by Prophet Jesus ? It's been 2000 years. If you can prove that Prophet Jesus did say these things, then we can believe in it. But you can not: 2000 years is not 2 minutes. You know religion is power. It does not stay untouched, unchanged by ill-intentioned men, because religion is power. For instance, as I told someone, if you don't lock away the Mueller report so that no one can touch it, I guarantee you that before sunday it will become a report on March Madness or on the beaches of the Bahamas, or something else.

So no, the Bible, you have to prove that it is really spoken by Jesus (peace on him) but you can not.

Again, the Qur'an, it was ordered that people commit it to memory from the beginning. And from generation to generation people kept committing it to memory. And it even goes on today. I myself have committed some of it to my memory. Little children 8 or 9 have committed all of it to their memories, that's like ordinary; all over the world. This is how it was made sure that the Qur'an be never touched, changed, or altered.

The Bible was written down a few decades after Jesus died so it is no different in that regard from the Quran. You ask for proof of what Jesus spoke but you can't offer proof of what Mohammad spoke.

For the million's time: the Qur'an was memorized at the time of Muhammad (peace be upon him). It was mandatory to learn it by heart, since the beginning. From generations to generations people kept committing it to memory, and it goes on today, people are still memorizing it. This ensures the Qur'an remains authentic, unchanged, unaltered, uncorrupted.

 

[Ahmad]

Many religions because after a few hundreds of years people forget. So God sends another prophet. That is why Moses was sent after Abraham. And Jesus after Moses. And Muhammad after Jesus (peace be upon them all). But with Muhammad, peace be upon him, God declared there would be no more prophet. This is the last. So after Muhammad, there are no prophets. God does not send any more prophets, but He sends saints. Each century after Muhammad has its saints. These saints follow after Muhammad and emulate his way. Example of these saints known worldwide are Rumi (an America's favourite), Ibn Arabi, Saadi, Imam Ghazali, etc... Just google their names and see.

You are absolutely right, only one religion can ultimately be true. That's common sense and logic. How is that a problem ? How many hundreds of millions of American have there been of all time, and how many of them became presidents of the United States ? 45. How is that a problem ? You are being unfair and dishonest, that's all.

So people can memorize the Quran but can't memorize the Bible? In the days when most people were illiterate, many made their living as story tellers. The Iliad is older than the NT yet it has come down to us reasonably intact.

I will explain what I have learned from muslims over the past approximately 50 years. It seems that they are taught, FROM
INFANCY, that there is something very special about the fact that
they memorize the Koran. Of course----that idea is utter BS.
People have been memorizing their scriptural literature for Millennia.
In fact, an early criticism of the PRINTING PRESS of Gutenberg, was
the fear that with a printing press, people would LOSE THE ABILITY
to memorize. The Koran is actually ---NOTHING MUCH to memorize.
It is done in "Arabic poetry" ---we all memorize little poems and limericks
as kids---------and it is really not all that long. Muslims seem FASCINATED by the fact that people memorized the Koran-----I got bad news for AHMAD-----my very own hubby came from very impoverished background-------but he has the Jewish scriptural writing memorized by
age six. Memorization is the "EDUCATION" of the very impoverished and ----BACKWARD people of the world ALL OVER THE WORLD----the Greeks and jews and Hindus etc did it LONG BEFORE THE RAPIST OF ARABIA was born

We are not talking about the meaning of "memorization". We are talking about the fact that it was memorized, has been memorized, and still is memorized. It's unchanged and untouched. The Bible is not a memorized book.

 

[Ahmad]

Hello.

This was prompted to me by people quoting me Bible verses, in their attempt to convince me of some elements. My question is, what evidence is there that the Bible's words, as known today are the actual words of the Prophet Jesus ? Jesus (peace be upon him) lived 2000 years ago. How would one expect, in all pure common sense, that his words are preserved up to this day ? Do you not think that these words are changed, modified, altered, arranged, and put up conveniently, voluntarily, and both with and without that very intent ?

Muhammad (peace be upon him) was given a book by God, The Qur'an. In it, God talks to him. It is the word of God. That was about 1500 years ago. However, the Qur'an was memorized from the beginning, as an obligation to the Muslim community, and it was done as it had to be. From generations to generations, it was memorized, all over the Muslim world, until today, and it continues. This is how we know the Qur'an is authentic, the very same that it was 1500 years ago.

1500 years ago, when Muhammad recited this Qur'an to people, everyone was amazed by such a speech, such words, such extraordinary and beautiful words of light. It is the same today, when someone reads a verse of the Qur'an, or many verses, or a Chapter, or many Chapters; he is overwhelmed by such extraodinary, magnificent and amazing words. This is because it is the word of God Almighty.

"So all the praises and thanks be to God, the Lord of the heavens and the Lord of the earth, and the Lord of the Alamin (mankind, jinn and all that exists). And His (Alone) is the Majesty in the heavens and the earth, and He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise." (45:36-37)

"But those who believe and do righteous good deeds, and believe in that which is sent down to Muhammad - for it is the truth from their Lord - He will expiate from them their sins, and will make good their state." (47:1)

Both are equally inauthentic as there is no ‘god’ as perceived by theists.

Does that make sense ?

Isn't obvious that the 3 great religions have the truth in their midst ?

Isn't it obvious that Islam came from God, to humans ? Islam="everything except GOD is vain". (meaning love God deeply, in a way that you can not love anyone or anything else).

What’s obvious is that man created religion, then ‘gods,’ and then a single ‘god.’

During the last 10,000 years man refined religion into the organized and authoritarian institutions they are today.

The common mythology shared by the Abrahamic religions is proof of that, variations of the same monotheistic theme.

If you don't mind the thread is about the authenticity of two holy books, not the existence of God.

 

[alang1216]

For the million's time: the Qur'an was memorized at the time of Muhammad (peace be upon him). It was mandatory to learn it by heart, since the beginning. From generations to generations people kept committing it to memory, and it goes on today, people are still memorizing it. This ensures the Qur'an remains authentic, unchanged, unaltered, uncorrupted.

I don't doubt you're right about the Quran. My point is that the Bible was likewise an oral history for most of it's existence and was also memorized by the faithful. A few decades after Jesus died the oral histories were collected and written down as the Gospels. No different from the birth of the Quran.

 

[irosie91]

Why do you think the oral history that became the Bible is any less accurate than the oral history that became the Quran?

Please read the OP.

I did. Please answer the question.

Again, what I am considering illegitimate is the Bible's authenticity as of today 2000 years after Jesus. How would one expect that these are in truth the actual words spoken by Prophet Jesus ? It's been 2000 years. If you can prove that Prophet Jesus did say these things, then we can believe in it. But you can not: 2000 years is not 2 minutes. You know religion is power. It does not stay untouched, unchanged by ill-intentioned men, because religion is power. For instance, as I told someone, if you don't lock away the Mueller report so that no one can touch it, I guarantee you that before sunday it will become a report on March Madness or on the beaches of the Bahamas, or something else.

So no, the Bible, you have to prove that it is really spoken by Jesus (peace on him) but you can not.

Again, the Qur'an, it was ordered that people commit it to memory from the beginning. And from generation to generation people kept committing it to memory. And it even goes on today. I myself have committed some of it to my memory. Little children 8 or 9 have committed all of it to their memories, that's like ordinary; all over the world. This is how it was made sure that the Qur'an be never touched, changed, or altered.

The Bible was written down a few decades after Jesus died so it is no different in that regard from the Quran. You ask for proof of what Jesus spoke but you can't offer proof of what Mohammad spoke.

For the million's time: the Qur'an was memorized at the time of Muhammad (peace be upon him). It was mandatory to learn it by heart, since the beginning. From generations to generations people kept committing it to memory, and it goes on today, people are still memorizing it. This ensures the Qur'an remains authentic, unchanged, unaltered, uncorrupted.

"authentic" WHAT? that people memorize it does not
make it VALUABLE-------long ago I knew a young woman who
had escaped from communist china. She was forced to memorize MAO's little redbook. Also the fact that muslims memorize the KHARAHAN is no "miracle"-----illiterates have been memorizing long poems for millennia.
The memorization thing contributes to the fact that EVEN
TODAY----the majority of muslims of the world are illiterate.
Lots of those illiterates can sing song the whole Koran-----in Arabic--------but cannot read or write in that language