Benefits of adding grades 13 and 14 to Secondary Ed.

[Wry Catcher]

I’d prefer to offer free/low cost community college to those who want it

Community College usually requires tuition, and the focus requires much of the same curriculum (history, social science, math, and physical and biological sciences) which a student seeking a trade or technology degree has had in their secondary education). Not all communities have a close by community college and high schools could accommodate more students, even if the 13th and 14th student body attended in the late afternoon and early evening. Also, most Community Colleges have an entrance exam, and require those who haven't mastered English or Math end up in Bone Head classes which undermines self confidence.

Not everyone needs a secondary education
I would like to see more trade opportunities and job skills/ apprenticeships

Job Corp takes 'em at 16, the military at 17, and yet not every individual is inclined to leave home at the age. The fact is, jobs in the trades, technology and the service industry do not get much attention in the current curriculum in high schools.

The 13/14 concept could be incorporated into the final year in high school, for those who decided they wanted to begin a career at 18.
\
Q. Did you have a plan for your career when you completed high school

A. My plan was to replace Clete Boyer at 3B.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Not every child seeks a four-year college degree upon completion of high school. Many want employment and to begin earning money.

Consider these bullet points;

• Teachers will come from business, industry and government.
• Students will be paid a minimum wage, and held to what is expected by future employers as to being on time, getting along with others and staying on task.
• Students will be introduced to the array of jobs listed here: Occupational Outlook Handbook: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
• Guest lectures and field trips will augment regular lessen plans
• Upon completion of the two-year course of study, the successful student will have all the tools necessary to apply for and secure entry level employment in their chosen field.
• these tools will include practice interviews and written resumes

Most communities have Jr. Colleges, which could incorporate such a two-year program, as well as a jumping off place for those who choose to transfer to a 4-year school.

What do you think?

Two more years of liberal indoctrination? No thanks.

LOL, miketx, you truly are stupid, that's so sad.

Oh I'm just calling it what it is. The schools are turning out illiterate imbeciles.

Apparently your school did.

 

[miketx]

No, I graduated in the early 70's when you actually had to know what they were teaching you and pass based on what you learned, liar.

 

[OldLady]

My granddaughter is graduating from high school next month with CNA certification and an internship lined up at the local hospital that guarantees her a job if she completes it (and doesn't kill anyone, I presume). The NY state BOCES program has always done a good job graduating kids with skills. It's the first rung of the ladder; my granddaughter can get her employer to assist with tuition when she goes on for further training. Having some experience under her belt when she goes back to school will be beneficial, too.
NY state also has the Regents program, which encourages academic excellence and gives free tuition to any SUNY university to students who get the highest scores on their final exams.
I know they collect a LOT of taxes in NY and the programs are no doubt expensive, so a lot of people here would probably say they're socialist or something, but to me it seems like money well spent on both programs.

 

[Disir]

I’d prefer to offer free/low cost community college to those who want it

Community College usually requires tuition, and the focus requires much of the same curriculum (history, social science, math, and physical and biological sciences) which a student seeking a trade or technology degree has had in their secondary education). Not all communities have a close by community college and high schools could accommodate more students, even if the 13th and 14th student body attended in the late afternoon and early evening. Also, most Community Colleges have an entrance exam, and require those who haven't mastered English or Math end up in Bone Head classes which undermines self confidence.

Not everyone needs a secondary education
I would like to see more trade opportunities and job skills/ apprenticeships

Job Corp takes 'em at 16, the military at 17, and yet not every individual is inclined to leave home at the age. The fact is, jobs in the trades, technology and the service industry do not get much attention in the current curriculum in high schools.

The 13/14 concept could be incorporated into the final year in high school, for those who decided they wanted to begin a career at 18.
\
Q. Did you have a plan for your career when you completed high school

A. My plan was to replace Clete Boyer at 3B.

Job Corp is where you go when you are all jacked up. The military now has a lot more requirements to enter.

The fact is that vo tech has been around for over 30 years. Auto mechanics, paint and body repair, nursing, and A&P licensing etc. and so on. Years ago there was hair styling. There was a vo tech in NY that offered restoration on homes. Some of those things you need an extra year after your senior year--now.

 

[Disir]

There was a guy here last election cycle that floated this 13th and 14th year crap. Now either he was not aware of vo tech or knew but clearly wanted to siphon off cash for the "business" of education. A&P does one additional year out of high school. However, you can take those courses to a university if you wish. You win your own airplane that last year. Technically--you are assigned to an airplane and you repair it. You spend about $1000 in tests but that's it. That's great if you don't want to go on to a university.

If you come from the land of DeVry as a trade school then you may not be aware of it.

There is no difference between the privatization promoted by Democrats and the privatization promoted by Republicans. It's all about a profit motive now.

Now, I have two more years of dealing with the education system at a personal level. I took my kid out of a school in another state that had few options but he wasn't going to be shot by gang bangers and he wasn't going to join any gangs and moved him to a place where he excels. Once I get him into college then I don't give a hot damn what you do with the k-12 education system.

Your last sentence tell me much more about you, thanks for that.

It should tell you that I'm fed up.

You have all of the data necessary to make significant changes. It isn't about what works. It isn't necessary to reinvent the wheel.
That tells me this is about profit.

 

[psikeyhackr]

Bennett

Our educators can't even create a curated National Recommended Reading List.

The textbook publishing business would not like that. How many useless variations in math books have been published in the last 50 years?

That link looked pretty extensive. Care to give us a concise summary?

The GED program was an immense success and was kept after the war. The American Council on Education continues to sponsor it today. It is not, nor was it ever intended, as an easy way to obtain a high school diploma. The test requires candidates to show they have "acquired a level of learning comparable to that of high school graduates," and is usually given to adults after their school days.

Authorities in Vero Beach knew their pupils in computerized education were learning. Nonetheless, they were unable to graduate because twenty-four credits were required. Credits depend primarily on time spent in completed classes. Even if the computer students knew enough, they still lacked sufficient credits. Therefore, authorities decided to use the GED exam as a replacement. This option set up a horrendous complication for the "at-risk" students trying to graduate. Only sixty-six percent of successful graduates can pass the GED with the Florida requirements after twelve normal years of learning in school. The "at-risk" students had been markedly behind when they entered the program. Now the school demanded that they not only equal other graduates, but that they do better than one-third of them. If they failed, their quest of a diploma had also failed. Odds against these students passing the GED were enormous. No one unfamiliar with the power of computers could have given them much chance to graduate.

When the tests were given and scored, questions about the effectiveness of this novel way of teaching vanished. Computers had effectively overcome those oppressive negative odds. Eighty-five percent of these students taught by computers pass the GED with the Florida requirements on their first attempt.

Bennett

Now the peculiar thing is that was 20 years ago, before $200 tablets Which are now more powerful and with more storage than desktops back then.

So where are teachers telling us about the Vero Beach, FL success story?

 

[xband]

Not every child seeks a four-year college degree upon completion of high school. Many want employment and to begin earning money.

Consider these bullet points;

• Teachers will come from business, industry and government.
• Students will be paid a minimum wage, and held to what is expected by future employers as to being on time, getting along with others and staying on task.
• Students will be introduced to the array of jobs listed here: Occupational Outlook Handbook: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
• Guest lectures and field trips will augment regular lessen plans
• Upon completion of the two-year course of study, the successful student will have all the tools necessary to apply for and secure entry level employment in their chosen field.
• these tools will include practice interviews and written resumes

Most communities have Jr. Colleges, which could incorporate such a two-year program, as well as a jumping off place for those who choose to transfer to a 4-year school.

What do you think?

What a horrible idea which makes my bones shiver. I hated school and skipped when I could. My brain shifted to high gear when I turned 21 and naturally turned from a C student to an A student. Some people are late bloomers and start school too early. I started 1st grade when 5 years old which was too young for me.

 

[there4eyeM]

There definitely seems to be a problem with how much per pupil is spent and the quality of what they can demonstrate as having learned. That said, it has long been my contention that two-year college prep be part of public education; the world and technology are vastly more complicated than they were decades ago.

 

[xband]

There definitely seems to be a problem with how much per pupil is spent and the quality of what they can demonstrate as having learned. That said, it has long been my contention that two-year college prep be part of public education; the world and technology are vastly more complicated than they were decades ago.

Teachers have a very limited education. I brought a baby water snake to class for show and tell in 1st grade which caused a big stir. The teachers and principal thought it was poisonous when they should have said venomous. The Principal called out a Herpetologist from Ohio State University who looked at it and said that is only a harmless baby water snake. Teaching teachers Herpetology when I was 5 years old gave me PTSD.

 

[Correll]

Bennett

Our educators can't even create a curated National Recommended Reading List.

The textbook publishing business would not like that. How many useless variations in math books have been published in the last 50 years?

That link looked pretty extensive. Care to give us a concise summary?

The GED program was an immense success and was kept after the war. The American Council on Education continues to sponsor it today. It is not, nor was it ever intended, as an easy way to obtain a high school diploma. The test requires candidates to show they have "acquired a level of learning comparable to that of high school graduates," and is usually given to adults after their school days.

Authorities in Vero Beach knew their pupils in computerized education were learning. Nonetheless, they were unable to graduate because twenty-four credits were required. Credits depend primarily on time spent in completed classes. Even if the computer students knew enough, they still lacked sufficient credits. Therefore, authorities decided to use the GED exam as a replacement. This option set up a horrendous complication for the "at-risk" students trying to graduate. Only sixty-six percent of successful graduates can pass the GED with the Florida requirements after twelve normal years of learning in school. The "at-risk" students had been markedly behind when they entered the program. Now the school demanded that they not only equal other graduates, but that they do better than one-third of them. If they failed, their quest of a diploma had also failed. Odds against these students passing the GED were enormous. No one unfamiliar with the power of computers could have given them much chance to graduate.

When the tests were given and scored, questions about the effectiveness of this novel way of teaching vanished. Computers had effectively overcome those oppressive negative odds. Eighty-five percent of these students taught by computers pass the GED with the Florida requirements on their first attempt.

Bennett

Now the peculiar thing is that was 20 years ago, before $200 tablets Which are now more powerful and with more storage than desktops back then.

So where are teachers telling us about the Vero Beach, FL success story?

Ahh, now that's impressive, I will dig into the link when I have have time to read it all. Thanks!

Excellent find.


I've known some people involved in Cyberschools, and my daughter competed in an online math competition for two or three years.

I've, long ago, like 20 years, took a class or two using computers with limited teacher involvement.

IMO, this is the future, and the sooner the better.

 

[rightwinger]

I’d prefer to offer free/low cost community college to those who want it

Community College usually requires tuition, and the focus requires much of the same curriculum (history, social science, math, and physical and biological sciences) which a student seeking a trade or technology degree has had in their secondary education). Not all communities have a close by community college and high schools could accommodate more students, even if the 13th and 14th student body attended in the late afternoon and early evening. Also, most Community Colleges have an entrance exam, and require those who haven't mastered English or Math end up in Bone Head classes which undermines self confidence.

Not everyone needs a secondary education
I would like to see more trade opportunities and job skills/ apprenticeships

Job Corp takes 'em at 16, the military at 17, and yet not every individual is inclined to leave home at the age. The fact is, jobs in the trades, technology and the service industry do not get much attention in the current curriculum in high schools.

The 13/14 concept could be incorporated into the final year in high school, for those who decided they wanted to begin a career at 18.
\
Q. Did you have a plan for your career when you completed high school

A. My plan was to replace Clete Boyer at 3B.

Clete Boyer?
Damn......you are old

 

[rightwinger]

There definitely seems to be a problem with how much per pupil is spent and the quality of what they can demonstrate as having learned. That said, it has long been my contention that two-year college prep be part of public education; the world and technology are vastly more complicated than they were decades ago.

Teachers have a very limited education. I brought a baby water snake to class for show and tell in 1st grade which caused a big stir. The teachers and principal thought it was poisonous when they should have said venomous. The Principal called out a Herpetologist from Ohio State University who looked at it and said that is only a harmless baby water snake. Teaching teachers Herpetology when I was 5 years old gave me PTSD.

I doubt many teachers are snake experts

 

[CrusaderFrank]

I’d prefer to offer free/low cost community college to those who want it

Community College usually requires tuition, and the focus requires much of the same curriculum (history, social science, math, and physical and biological sciences) which a student seeking a trade or technology degree has had in their secondary education). Not all communities have a close by community college and high schools could accommodate more students, even if the 13th and 14th student body attended in the late afternoon and early evening. Also, most Community Colleges have an entrance exam, and require those who haven't mastered English or Math end up in Bone Head classes which undermines self confidence.

Not everyone needs a secondary education
I would like to see more trade opportunities and job skills/ apprenticeships

Job Corp takes 'em at 16, the military at 17, and yet not every individual is inclined to leave home at the age. The fact is, jobs in the trades, technology and the service industry do not get much attention in the current curriculum in high schools.

The 13/14 concept could be incorporated into the final year in high school, for those who decided they wanted to begin a career at 18.
\
Q. Did you have a plan for your career when you completed high school

A. My plan was to replace Clete Boyer at 3B.

Phil Linz, Tom Tresh, Gene Michael, Horace Clark....those are the Yankees I grew up on

 

[Wry Catcher]

I’d prefer to offer free/low cost community college to those who want it

Community College usually requires tuition, and the focus requires much of the same curriculum (history, social science, math, and physical and biological sciences) which a student seeking a trade or technology degree has had in their secondary education). Not all communities have a close by community college and high schools could accommodate more students, even if the 13th and 14th student body attended in the late afternoon and early evening. Also, most Community Colleges have an entrance exam, and require those who haven't mastered English or Math end up in Bone Head classes which undermines self confidence.

Not everyone needs a secondary education
I would like to see more trade opportunities and job skills/ apprenticeships

Job Corp takes 'em at 16, the military at 17, and yet not every individual is inclined to leave home at the age. The fact is, jobs in the trades, technology and the service industry do not get much attention in the current curriculum in high schools.

The 13/14 concept could be incorporated into the final year in high school, for those who decided they wanted to begin a career at 18.
\
Q. Did you have a plan for your career when you completed high school

A. My plan was to replace Clete Boyer at 3B.

Phil Linz, Tom Tresh, Gene Michael, Horace Clark....those are the Yankees I grew up on

Actually before the Giants move to SF I followed the Dodgers and was a fan of Duke Snider. Boyer was who I wanted to replace, since I never had the speed to play CF, and I was never small and was never called Pee Wee.

 

[DGS49]

How's this for a concept: Every public school student should be afforded FREE education for as long as s/he can demonstrate that:

(1). They are serious about EDUCATION,
(2). They want to pursue studies that have public benefit (including skilled trades),
(3). They are intellectually capable of succeeding at the next-higher level, and
(4). They maintain good "grades" or grade equivalent.

Most important is the "other side of the coin." When the student demonstrates that s/he is NOT serious about education, or they cannot succeed at the next higher level, they are jettisoned, whether that be at age 16 or 26, or anywhere in between.

No racial, ethnic, gender, disability, or other preferences. All on merit.

It would not cost a dime more than we spend now. At least half of the student body would be GONE by age 17.

 

[Wry Catcher]

I’d prefer to offer free/low cost community college to those who want it

Community College usually requires tuition, and the focus requires much of the same curriculum (history, social science, math, and physical and biological sciences) which a student seeking a trade or technology degree has had in their secondary education). Not all communities have a close by community college and high schools could accommodate more students, even if the 13th and 14th student body attended in the late afternoon and early evening. Also, most Community Colleges have an entrance exam, and require those who haven't mastered English or Math end up in Bone Head classes which undermines self confidence.

Not everyone needs a secondary education
I would like to see more trade opportunities and job skills/ apprenticeships

Job Corp takes 'em at 16, the military at 17, and yet not every individual is inclined to leave home at the age. The fact is, jobs in the trades, technology and the service industry do not get much attention in the current curriculum in high schools.

The 13/14 concept could be incorporated into the final year in high school, for those who decided they wanted to begin a career at 18.
\
Q. Did you have a plan for your career when you completed high school

A. My plan was to replace Clete Boyer at 3B.

Clete Boyer?
Damn......you are old

Yep. It beats the alternative. And, BTW, when I was a cub scout our parish took the softball team to Seal Stadium where I watched the Seals play the Boston Red Sox (the Seals in that year were a farm team, and it was an exhibition game).

There I saw Ted Williams at bat, and was amazed when every Seal on defense shifted and only the 3rd Baseman and the LFer were on the left field side.

BTW2, I can still name a number of the Seal's who played that night: Pearson, Sullivan, Keough, Kelly, Aspermonte, Renner, and still know my locker combination from Jr. Hi. School (16-38-28); thus, I'm not that old!

 

[Wry Catcher]

How's this for a concept: Every public school student should be afforded FREE education for as long as s/he can demonstrate that:

(1). They are serious about EDUCATION,
(2). They want to pursue studies that have public benefit (including skilled trades),
(3). They are intellectually capable of succeeding at the next-higher level, and
(4). They maintain good "grades" or grade equivalent.

Most important is the "other side of the coin." When the student demonstrates that s/he is NOT serious about education, or they cannot succeed at the next higher level, they are jettisoned, whether that be at age 16 or 26, or anywhere in between.

No racial, ethnic, gender, disability, or other preferences. All on merit.

It would not cost a dime more than we spend now. At least half of the student body would be GONE by age 17.

Wow. And where will the "jettisoned" go and what will they do? I think the answer to that is self evident.

 

[bodecea]

Most communities have Jr. Colleges, which could incorporate such a two-year program, as well as a jumping off place for those who choose to transfer to a 4-year school.

THERE'S the path. K-12 has enough tasks on their plate. Get them out. Even EARLY out for trades, and specialty services. The Comm Colleges AND the trade schools that are making a comeback will do a better job.

If you live in a state that can afford subsidizing AA, AS degrees, like Tennessee just did --- even better.

And the message to the K-12 gulag is -- you better RAISE the expectations and shoot for getting kids to that "post secondary" level or you've failed them completely. Their lives are gonna depend on it...

Sounds like you left out the most important part of the equation.

 

[Wry Catcher]

I have never said I wanted to pour more money into the public education system. My take away from all of you conservatives who make this claim, and also feel the taxpayer should subsidize with vouchers alternative schools, believe the private sector, in all areas even beyond the education system, is good and anything touched by the government is not good, and even bad.

Clearly I hold a different opinion. The private sector, by definition, is profit driven. That is not meant to state they do not, or can not do a better job than our current public school system, it's just a fact.

Private schools do not need, and are mostly unwilling, to allow a student who is disruptive to remain in the classroom, or even within their private school system. Public schools must take every student, unless the student's behavior is a danger to others or themselves. However, the public school system is not off the hook, since every child within their community is required to receive educational services, paid for by the taxpayer.

Of course I also believe the hidden agenda behind the voucher movement is an effort by its advocates to brainwash a child. Sometimes with great subtlety, as when, "under God" was inserted into the Pledge of Alliance.

Go find the "Waiting for Superman" documentary on NetFlix or other platforms. This is a WAR. Lives are being lost every new school year. We need to TRIAGE the situation..

And the 1st step is separate the parents that a give a shit from those who don't. That is what the documentary is about. About 4500 parents queing up (Lottery Style) for just a couple hundred VOUCHERS that get THEIR kids out of dangerous failing schools.. And the pain of NOT getting them..

We owe all the parents WHO CARE -- immediate relief. And deal with the other types of situations in other battles. Go WATCH IT --- and tell me you're just gonna ignore them... THEY KNOW what their solution looks like.

Yeah, let's all support Segregation, that'll be the panacea.

SARCASM ALERT

You're not gonna watch the carnage of keeping MOTIVATED parents panicked without hope. DARE YOU to watch it. And it's not segregation. It's actually in MOST cases works to the advantage of INTEGRATION.

You got nothing.. Watch the documentary..

I was involved and managed a DOJ grant which put Police Officers (Resource Officers) and Probation Officers in selective schools in our county. Of course this was expensive and when the grant ended so did the program.

I don't need to watch a documentary, I visited these schools during that 3-year assignment and found a couple things of interest: School Administrators were not all receptive to LE being on campus, and didn't buy into the program; the kids provided valuable information to the officers, which led to interventions the school authorities & regular patrol might never have uncovered; and, turf issues prevented a closer relationship between LE, Teachers and the Juv. Court Judge.

I would like to have established Youth Court's (look that up, there is lots of material on this program) in the several School Districts within the County. Once again turf issues prevented us from implementing this public/private sector program using volunteers as mentors and students as court personnel.