Before Racing To National Healthcare: Listen

[Harry Dresden]

The right is all about FEAR.

Mostly fear of brown men with beards.....

LOL....oh thank you Chris....you and Bobo never fail to put a smile on my face....and i know about 6-7 other people posting here,they like it too when you guys and your posse show up.....is the "FEAR" that the right throws at ya,any different then the "FEAR" the left throws?......you know Al Gore,Nancy Pelosi,Harry Reid....every election the old people are told they are going to lose their SS.....that kinda fear......ya wanna see some thing to FEAR Chris?.....check out my Avitar.....now that is something to FEAR.....

 

[Nik]

This same kind of dilemma faces legitimate existing government health care, Medicare in particular. It will always be one of those gray areas that will probably be determined case by case. To project that there will be specific treatments unavailable for certain age groups is a stretch, and it's an example of the hysteria over this subject by the right.

do you live in a cave or something?....are you now telling us that NOBODY on the left gets their feathers in a ruffle over this?.....only hysteria on the RIGHT?.....you got a lot to learn Maggie.....

The left has discussions about it, yes. But there isn't hysteria as if people not dying of easily cured disease is somehow the end of society as we know it.

 

[Nik]

who decides if the disease you have is covered under your national plan Nik?....you yourself in a previous thread said you did not know,BUT they can,just like the private plans.....turn you down.....so how is that different than what is out there now?....i have a disease....oh sorry we dont cover it....doesnt do me any good does it.....♠

It is different in that the millions of people who are not now covered, would be covered. Besides the fact that that 2 organizations that do exactly the same thing, the one that is profit-neutral might just cover more things than the organization that makes billions in profits.

you are not answering the question Nic....you are doing exactly what the pro universal health people do.....you dance around the questions,and try to throw some "other" good stuff at me,hoping i will go away satisfied,question not answered,but satisfied....well it aint gonna work.....bottom line WILL they or will they not cover ALL diseases, existing ones you may have and all those you may get....YES or NO.....♠

Jesus fuck, you are dense.

You asked me what would be different. The difference is that it would be affordable, and everyone could be covered. Will they cover everything, always and forever? Probably not. But neither do current insurance companies. I've said all of this shit before.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

It is different in that the millions of people who are not now covered, would be covered. Besides the fact that that 2 organizations that do exactly the same thing, the one that is profit-neutral might just cover more things than the organization that makes billions in profits.

As I said before...if we got rid of the ILLEGALS in this country we could get back to reasonably priced health care.

I know you claimed before that a lot of the "non-citizens" have green cards and therefore have some "right" to healthcare.....but our lottery system only allows for about 55,000 green cards per year....otherwise they must be sponsored by an employer or get married or whatever.....

There are at least 2 to 3 MILLION illegals coming across our borders every year yet only about 1 million or less have been receiving green cards in total......the excess MILLIONS of ILLEGALS that have been coming in for YEARS are breaking down our formerly adequate health system....converting to a government program is not going to fix the main problem....

How many people are given green cards each year in the United States?

Great. Throw out the illegals, and we save money on healthcare. And then food skyrockets, construction costs skyrocket, and god knows how many things. Consumer spending dips dramatically, because suddenly there are 5 million less people spending. Awesoime, awesome idea.

Yes it is thankyouverymuch.....what you really should be getting in a sweat about is what is going to happen when the 30million illegals bring in their 90million relatives....then you will for sure see the economic doom you fear...not to mention a host of other problems....

We really don’t need to “throw them out” as you say….we need to stop any more from entering the country and adding to the existing problems….we need to require green cards of all foreign workers.....AND we need to stop giving away free heatlth care and free food stamps and free welfare and free schooling and free housing and free you name it and many of the freeloaders will just leave on their own and go back home to live in socialist Mexico...

....only when we STOP trying to absorb the Mexican poor and other foreigners and let Mexico and other countries take care of their own will we begin to see daylight in our overswamped health care system....we just plain cannot afford to take on millions of indigents from other countries....

 

[Chris]

As I said before...if we got rid of the ILLEGALS in this country we could get back to reasonably priced health care.

I know you claimed before that a lot of the "non-citizens" have green cards and therefore have some "right" to healthcare.....but our lottery system only allows for about 55,000 green cards per year....otherwise they must be sponsored by an employer or get married or whatever.....

There are at least 2 to 3 MILLION illegals coming across our borders every year yet only about 1 million or less have been receiving green cards in total......the excess MILLIONS of ILLEGALS that have been coming in for YEARS are breaking down our formerly adequate health system....converting to a government program is not going to fix the main problem....

How many people are given green cards each year in the United States?

Great. Throw out the illegals, and we save money on healthcare. And then food skyrockets, construction costs skyrocket, and god knows how many things. Consumer spending dips dramatically, because suddenly there are 5 million less people spending. Awesoime, awesome idea.

Yes it is thankyouverymuch.....what you really should be getting in a sweat about is what is going to happen when the 30million illegals bring in their 90million relatives....then you will for sure see the economic doom you fear...not to mention a host of other problems....

We really don’t need to “throw them out” as you say….we need to stop any more from entering the country and adding to the existing problems….we need to require green cards of all foreign workers.....AND we need to stop giving away free heatlth care and free food stamps and free welfare and free schooling and free housing and free you name it and many of the freeloaders will just leave on their own and go back home to live in socialist Mexico...

....only when we STOP trying to absorb the Mexican poor and other foreigners and let Mexico and other countries take care of their own will we begin to see daylight in our overswamped health care system....we just plain cannot afford to take on millions of indigents from other countries....

Like the Pilgrims?

 

[Seraega]

Yes it is thankyouverymuch.....what you really should be getting in a sweat about is what is going to happen when the 30million illegals bring in their 90million relatives....then you will for sure see the economic doom you fear...not to mention a host of other problems....

We really don’t need to “throw them out” as you say….we need to stop any more from entering the country and adding to the existing problems….we need to require green cards of all foreign workers.....AND we need to stop giving away free heatlth care and free food stamps and free welfare and free schooling and free housing and free you name it and many of the freeloaders will just leave on their own and go back home to live in socialist Mexico...

....only when we STOP trying to absorb the Mexican poor and other foreigners and let Mexico and other countries take care of their own will we begin to see daylight in our overswamped health care system....we just plain cannot afford to take on millions of indigents from other countries....

I absolutely agree with this immigration policy. There is absolutely no industrialized nation that takes in the number of poor people that we do. Try to legally move to canada - good freaking luck. Unless you have a BA/BS in a field that they desperately need workers you're not getting in. They're not taking onion farmers. They're taking civil engineers and doctors. Of all the arguments about how America doesn't fit the mold with the rest of the socialized developed world, this is the one argument that sways me a little bit. Our immigration problem is absolutely astronomical. I propose a real easy solution, first deport any illegal that shows up to register their kids at school, or at a hospital. Second, put snipers randomly on the border and invoke castle law. You're an intruder, you deserve to die no questions asked. Third, ABSOLUTELY eliminate the policy that illegal children born here get citizenship. This is retarded. if the parents aren't citizens, the children shouldn't get it just because they were born here.

Fix immigration and it becomes much easier to fix a lot of other problems.

 

[Harry Dresden]

This same kind of dilemma faces legitimate existing government health care, Medicare in particular. It will always be one of those gray areas that will probably be determined case by case. To project that there will be specific treatments unavailable for certain age groups is a stretch, and it's an example of the hysteria over this subject by the right.

do you live in a cave or something?....are you now telling us that NOBODY on the left gets their feathers in a ruffle over this?.....only hysteria on the RIGHT?.....you got a lot to learn Maggie.....

The left has discussions about it, yes. But there isn't hysteria as if people not dying of easily cured disease is somehow the end of society as we know it.

once again Nik your lost.....not what the conversation was about in this little segment....

 

[Harry Dresden]

It is different in that the millions of people who are not now covered, would be covered. Besides the fact that that 2 organizations that do exactly the same thing, the one that is profit-neutral might just cover more things than the organization that makes billions in profits.

you are not answering the question Nic....you are doing exactly what the pro universal health people do.....you dance around the questions,and try to throw some "other" good stuff at me,hoping i will go away satisfied,question not answered,but satisfied....well it aint gonna work.....bottom line WILL they or will they not cover ALL diseases, existing ones you may have and all those you may get....YES or NO.....♠

Jesus fuck, you are dense.

You asked me what would be different. The difference is that it would be affordable, and everyone could be covered. Will they cover everything, always and forever? Probably not. But neither do current insurance companies. I've said all of this shit before.

no Nik ....i think you have problems following conversations,and you do avoid answering questions when asked.......i asked if they will cover any existing diseases people already have and will they pick and choose which ones you are allowed to have....and you said "well the good thing is many who are uninsured will now be covered".....did you answer the question?.....no asswipe you didnt.....basically dildo your telling me there will be NO CHANGE in how things operate in terms of your health management....but more people will be covered.....but those with serious needs will still get the short end of the stick.....i guess to you thats called CHANGE....

 

[Nik]

do you live in a cave or something?....are you now telling us that NOBODY on the left gets their feathers in a ruffle over this?.....only hysteria on the RIGHT?.....you got a lot to learn Maggie.....

The left has discussions about it, yes. But there isn't hysteria as if people not dying of easily cured disease is somehow the end of society as we know it.

once again Nik your lost.....not what the conversation was about in this little segment....

I'm lost? I had to say the same damn thing to you about 6 times before you finally got it. I know exactly whats going on here.

 

[Nik]

you are not answering the question Nic....you are doing exactly what the pro universal health people do.....you dance around the questions,and try to throw some "other" good stuff at me,hoping i will go away satisfied,question not answered,but satisfied....well it aint gonna work.....bottom line WILL they or will they not cover ALL diseases, existing ones you may have and all those you may get....YES or NO.....♠

Jesus fuck, you are dense.

You asked me what would be different. The difference is that it would be affordable, and everyone could be covered. Will they cover everything, always and forever? Probably not. But neither do current insurance companies. I've said all of this shit before.

no Nik ....i think you have problems following conversations,and you do avoid answering questions when asked.......i asked if they will cover any existing diseases people already have and will they pick and choose which ones you are allowed to have....and you said "well the good thing is many who are uninsured will now be covered".....did you answer the question?.....no asswipe you didnt.....basically dildo your telling me there will be NO CHANGE in how things operate in terms of your health management....but more people will be covered.....but those with serious needs will still get the short end of the stick.....i guess to you thats called CHANGE....

No. This is what you said.

who decides if the disease you have is covered under your national plan Nik?....you yourself in a previous thread said you did not know,BUT they can,just like the private plans.....turn you down.....so how is that different than what is out there now?....i have a disease....oh sorry we dont cover it....doesnt do me any good does it.....♠

And I answered how it is different than what is out there now. As to your repeated questions about whats the difference as far as what will be covered see my answers when I said in response to your question

is this national ins. going to also deny coverage if they deem it to expensive?.

Yes, just like private insurance companies do.

Then I said this

You thought wrong, and nobody ever claimed that. Some treatments are just too expensive. But there is no reason for people who have treatable, fairly cheap diseases being not treated because they don't have the money. And then we all get to pay lots and lots when they go into the ER because the longer you wait before treating a disease, the worse it gets.

Thats besides the fact that just because you have money you don't have more of a right to life than anyone else.

And then this:

But, of course, you had trouble comprehending. What you are trying to get at is what diseases will a national health insurance not cover because they are too expensive, and who makes the determination. The answer is, I don't know, and the government makes the determination. But right now the answer is, I don't know, and private for-profit businesses are making the determination. If I have to trust my health to one of two different organizations, one of whose goal is to improve my health, and one whose goal is to profit, its pretty obvious which one I should pick, the wailing and gnashing of teeth about governments many failures notwithstanding.

In conclusion, what you seem to be misunderstanding is that I don't have a magic fucking ball that will tell me exactly what diseases will be covered and which won't. It may not be that much different from private health insurance, I don't know. But there are two things that make a public plan option extremely important. Cost, and who its available too. Merely because those two things might not effect you, or they aren't important to you, doesn't mean they aren't things that are a HUGE change. And yes, insuring the tens of millions of people who currently don't have health insurance IS change. Its a huge, massive change. Its just one that might not benefit you. But I don't base my opinion on policy on how much it will help you Harry.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Jesus fuck, you are dense.

You asked me what would be different. The difference is that it would be affordable, and everyone could be covered. Will they cover everything, always and forever? Probably not. But neither do current insurance companies. I've said all of this shit before.

no Nik ....i think you have problems following conversations,and you do avoid answering questions when asked.......i asked if they will cover any existing diseases people already have and will they pick and choose which ones you are allowed to have....and you said "well the good thing is many who are uninsured will now be covered".....did you answer the question?.....no asswipe you didnt.....basically dildo your telling me there will be NO CHANGE in how things operate in terms of your health management....but more people will be covered.....but those with serious needs will still get the short end of the stick.....i guess to you thats called CHANGE....

No. This is what you said.



And I answered how it is different than what is out there now. As to your repeated questions about whats the difference as far as what will be covered see my answers when I said in response to your question




Then I said this

You thought wrong, and nobody ever claimed that. Some treatments are just too expensive. But there is no reason for people who have treatable, fairly cheap diseases being not treated because they don't have the money. And then we all get to pay lots and lots when they go into the ER because the longer you wait before treating a disease, the worse it gets.

Thats besides the fact that just because you have money you don't have more of a right to life than anyone else.

And then this:

But, of course, you had trouble comprehending. What you are trying to get at is what diseases will a national health insurance not cover because they are too expensive, and who makes the determination. The answer is, I don't know, and the government makes the determination. But right now the answer is, I don't know, and private for-profit businesses are making the determination. If I have to trust my health to one of two different organizations, one of whose goal is to improve my health, and one whose goal is to profit, its pretty obvious which one I should pick, the wailing and gnashing of teeth about governments many failures notwithstanding.

In conclusion, what you seem to be misunderstanding is that I don't have a magic fucking ball that will tell me exactly what diseases will be covered and which won't. It may not be that much different from private health insurance, I don't know. But there are two things that make a public plan option extremely important. Cost, and who its available too. Merely because those two things might not effect you, or they aren't important to you, doesn't mean they aren't things that are a HUGE change. And yes, insuring the tens of millions of people who currently don't have health insurance IS change. Its a huge, massive change. Its just one that might not benefit you. But I don't base my opinion on policy on how much it will help you Harry.

if they can pick and choose Nik and can still deny coverage.....then there aint no difference in private HC.....this is one of the big complaints about what is out there now.....so WHY would i wanna go for this?....the people with those diseases are still shit out of luck....how will it change for them?....answer IT WONT....

 

[sealybobo]

Faces of government healthcare:

Faces of Government Healthcare

Why do people think that they’re better off with a private system for healthcare delivery? All private healthcare providers have one very important thing on their minds that is not conducive to good healthcare: profit.

Yes, yes, I know the argument – the profit motive is a good thing because it encourages competition. But among health insurers, that competition takes the form of refusing to insure people with pre-existing conditions and trying to slough off all high-cost insureds. More importantly, the supposed benefits of the profit motive, for whatever reason, don't operate in the healthcare sector. As study after study demonstrates, we spend far more money than any other developed nation on healthcare for worse outcomes.

I think it’s really sad that we let the mindless free-market for everything crowd dominate the healthcare debate when their arguments so plainly make no sense in this context.

Daily Kos: Public v. Private Healthcare

 

[Nik]

no Nik ....i think you have problems following conversations,and you do avoid answering questions when asked.......i asked if they will cover any existing diseases people already have and will they pick and choose which ones you are allowed to have....and you said "well the good thing is many who are uninsured will now be covered".....did you answer the question?.....no asswipe you didnt.....basically dildo your telling me there will be NO CHANGE in how things operate in terms of your health management....but more people will be covered.....but those with serious needs will still get the short end of the stick.....i guess to you thats called CHANGE....

No. This is what you said.



And I answered how it is different than what is out there now. As to your repeated questions about whats the difference as far as what will be covered see my answers when I said in response to your question




Then I said this


And then this:

But, of course, you had trouble comprehending. What you are trying to get at is what diseases will a national health insurance not cover because they are too expensive, and who makes the determination. The answer is, I don't know, and the government makes the determination. But right now the answer is, I don't know, and private for-profit businesses are making the determination. If I have to trust my health to one of two different organizations, one of whose goal is to improve my health, and one whose goal is to profit, its pretty obvious which one I should pick, the wailing and gnashing of teeth about governments many failures notwithstanding.

In conclusion, what you seem to be misunderstanding is that I don't have a magic fucking ball that will tell me exactly what diseases will be covered and which won't. It may not be that much different from private health insurance, I don't know. But there are two things that make a public plan option extremely important. Cost, and who its available too. Merely because those two things might not effect you, or they aren't important to you, doesn't mean they aren't things that are a HUGE change. And yes, insuring the tens of millions of people who currently don't have health insurance IS change. Its a huge, massive change. Its just one that might not benefit you. But I don't base my opinion on policy on how much it will help you Harry.

if they can pick and choose Nik and can still deny coverage.....then there aint no difference in private HC.....this is one of the big complaints about what is out there now.....so WHY would i wanna go for this?....the people with those diseases are still shit out of luck....how will it change for them?....answer IT WONT....

Then support UHC that will cover everything for everyone. Then blame the Republicans when they have a shitfit over it. And, as I said before, this will likely cover more things (although because I am not prescient, I don't actually know), because a system that runs revenue-neutral should be better at coverage than one that runs at billions of dollars in profit.

Oh, that, and all the uninsured people being insured now. Which I know you don't give a flying fuck about, but it actually matters. As I said before, I am concerned how the plan will protect the public as a whole, not its effects on one Harry Dresden.

 

[Gunny]

I've never seen a bigger bunch of idiots so determined to march over the cliff of mediocrity. Well, except for the last Presidential election.

 

[HUGGY]

I've never seen a bigger bunch of idiots so determined to march over the cliff of mediocrity. Well, except for the last Presidential election.

Except for that one or two square feet you occupy when standing up you really don't care about america do you?

50-60 million americans have been left behind in this insane race to steal as much as the insurance companies can in the transaction between suffering and healing..

If you do not care about those you faught for, in my opinion, your medals don't mean shit. You should have just become a mercinary.

 

[Gurdari]

Guess what, everyone stands in line to get health care. I had to wait 6 weeks to get an injection in my back to relieve extreme pain and I have Kaiser.

Trying to scare people about the availablity of healthcare with a single payer system isn't working anymore. I've met and talked to quite a few people from Canada and Europe (Britain and Sweden) who report no wait times for emergency care.

Was that 6 weeks for emergency care?
I call bullshit.

I had a similar situation - back issues - told my doctor, and she referred me to a specialist, I call him when I need to and go see him. SImple. Easy. No money needed.

That's under the Canadian system, so likely he's some quack witch-doctor not good enough to move to the US to be a real doctor ...but at least he has a white coat and a receptionist. (I have low standards)

 

[sealybobo]

I've never seen a bigger bunch of idiots so determined to march over the cliff of mediocrity. Well, except for the last Presidential election.

We have seen our healthcare get worse and worse over 20 years to the point it is unacceptable.

As for me, I just want the same healthcare that John McCain gets. Look at what he gets and that is what i want for every American. He doesn't seem to complain.

For every $100 that passes through the hands of the government-administered Medicare programs, between $2 and $3 is spent on administration, leaving $97 to $98 to pay for medical services and drugs. But of every $100 that flows through corporate insurance programs and HMOs, $10 to $24 sticks to corporate fingers along the way. After all, Medicare doesn't have lavish corporate headquarters, corporate jets, or pay expensive lobbying firms in Washington to work on its behalf. It doesn't "donate" millions to politicians and their parties. It doesn't pay profits in the form of dividends to its shareholders. And it doesn't compensate its top executive with over a million dollars a year, as do each of the largest of the American insurance companies. Medicare has one primary mandate: serve the public. Private corporations also have one primary mandate: generate profit.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Great. Throw out the illegals, and we save money on healthcare. And then food skyrockets, construction costs skyrocket, and god knows how many things. Consumer spending dips dramatically, because suddenly there are 5 million less people spending. Awesoime, awesome idea.

Yes it is thankyouverymuch.....what you really should be getting in a sweat about is what is going to happen when the 30million illegals bring in their 90million relatives....then you will for sure see the economic doom you fear...not to mention a host of other problems....

We really don’t need to “throw them out” as you say….we need to stop any more from entering the country and adding to the existing problems….we need to require green cards of all foreign workers.....AND we need to stop giving away free heatlth care and free food stamps and free welfare and free schooling and free housing and free you name it and many of the freeloaders will just leave on their own and go back home to live in socialist Mexico...

....only when we STOP trying to absorb the Mexican poor and other foreigners and let Mexico and other countries take care of their own will we begin to see daylight in our overswamped health care system....we just plain cannot afford to take on millions of indigents from other countries....

Like the Pilgrims?

And did the Indians give the Pilgrims free health care? You bleeding heart liberals crack me up with your stupidity....

 

[ScreamingEagle]

I've never seen a bigger bunch of idiots so determined to march over the cliff of mediocrity. Well, except for the last Presidential election.

We have seen our healthcare get worse and worse over 20 years to the point it is unacceptable.

As for me, I just want the same healthcare that John McCain gets. Look at what he gets and that is what i want for every American. He doesn't seem to complain.

For every $100 that passes through the hands of the government-administered Medicare programs, between $2 and $3 is spent on administration, leaving $97 to $98 to pay for medical services and drugs. But of every $100 that flows through corporate insurance programs and HMOs, $10 to $24 sticks to corporate fingers along the way. After all, Medicare doesn't have lavish corporate headquarters, corporate jets, or pay expensive lobbying firms in Washington to work on its behalf. It doesn't "donate" millions to politicians and their parties. It doesn't pay profits in the form of dividends to its shareholders. And it doesn't compensate its top executive with over a million dollars a year, as do each of the largest of the American insurance companies. Medicare has one primary mandate: serve the public. Private corporations also have one primary mandate: generate profit.

If the Govt. only pays $2-$3 administration.....why is Medicare going broke?

 

[Harry Dresden]

Oh, that, and all the uninsured people being insured now. Which I know you don't give a flying fuck about, but it actually matters. As I said before, I am concerned how the plan will protect the public as a whole, not its effects on one Harry Dresden.

see Nik this is why i said earlier that you dont follow what is going here.....as soon as you said this...."not its effects on one Harry Dresden."....this proved it without a doubt....im sitting here talking about the thousands of people out there with a disease that their Ins. wont cover or wont pay for treatment etc.etc......one of the big 3 gripes about this system.....and you infer that all im thinking about is me.....Bottom line Nik....you dont know jack about the stuff being proposed,AND you can give a rats ass about all those who STILL wont be covered.....as long as Nik is covered FUCK all the others....which is it Nik?...are you a lefty or a righty?....you have the attitude of both....as long as im covered,im happy......and those who dont make it....fuck em..should not have gotten that bad disease.....even Bobo is more consistant than you...at least you know where he is coming from....you it seems its "just what i have been told".....♠♠